Dungrove Elder or Predator Ooze on turn 2?

[icabob7]

So I am running a get 'er dungrove deck that has 3 predator oozes and 4 Dungrove Elders. If I play a turn 1 birds or Llanowar Elves which would be the better play on turn 2 if I have both in my hand?

Also I am running 3 Revenge of the Hunted, should I mulligan if it is in my opening hand?

Thanks for your feedback

[TheWillRogers]

is Predator Ooze even a card? i think avenger is just a better 3 drop.

[vger]

@TheWillRogers,

I doubt that was particularly helpful to the OP, since it wasn't the intention of the OP to discuss whatever cards that are better/worse than Dungrove Elder/Predator Ooze.

Whether if a card is better than the other, could really be dependant on the context where both cards are compared in.

Say in a format that runs high numbers of Gut Shot and Bonfire of the Damned (among other removals), Predator Ooze could have been a better card since it can be a resilient beater that survives most of those spells. This is especially powerful when coupled with Dungrove Elder since both cards do require different sets of answers to deal with them. And when combined with a few Rancor (and other pump spells) and Ulvenwald Tracker in a Monogreen build, trading becomes a lot more profitable without you having to fear Predator Ooze dying in the process.

And let's not mention that you won't be bluffing any clever player with Wolfir Avenger for most occasions, since such a build (assuming Monogreen) doesn't actually have too many instant speed spells that can work in conjunction with Wolfir Avenger to bluff anyone. If your opponent has any knowledge of Wolfir Avenger being in your build, it doesn't really take much for them to figure that line of play and force it out.

Furthermore, Wolfir Avenger does require some untapped lands for it to be extra resilient for some games. In those scenarios, it may cause the pilot some tempo since he can't exactly extend flexibly as he may want to.

However that is not to say Wolfir Avenger is definitely a worse card than Predator Ooze. Its casting cost, for example, is less demanding and could therefore allows it to be played across various archetypes. Or it could be played along with equipment (swords in particular) for some blowout plays, while dodging all those sorcery speed removals (Oblivion Ring, Bonfire of the Damned, DOJ, Black Sun's Zenith etc etc).

Seeing that 1) Wolfir Avenger is answered by the same set of removals as Predator Ooze, 2) Predator Ooze does not require additional resources to be resilient, 3) the build can also support Predator Ooze and has better synergy with it, Predator Ooze isn't exactly a worse card as it seems. Yet of course, some builds/pilots may prefer Wolfir Avenger to Predator Ooze but it isn't a bad decision as well.

@Icabob7,

I would play a turn 2 Predator Ooze instead (general context).

This is because:

1) Predator Ooze does take some time to grow, having it played early could mean additional combat steps and thus, more potential to grow into an aggressive threat. Dungrove Elder meanwhile is totally dependent on the number of forests you have, therefore it makes a better late-game player than Predator Ooze.

2) Predator Ooze survives any early sweepers much better than Dungrove Elder does, from Whipflare to Slagstorm to even a miracled Bonfire of the Damned. Therefore it seems wiser to be playing a Dungrove Elder later, when you are confident that it can survive those early sweepers.

3) Predator Ooze does relatively better against opposing critters early, whereas you probably can't take hits or attack through with Dungrove Elder (when it is still small-sized). Eventually you may find yourself wasting combat steps if Dungrove Elder just stays by the sidelines. With Predator Ooze, you have no worries of playing offense or defense as and when you like.

Yet this is taking a general perspective of things. I can't exactly list each and every scenario out, therefore I can only suggest the better line of play in general scenarios. For more accuracy, it is still better if you were to playtest for every matchup.

If you were to take specifics into account, like against a common Delver matchup, you would really want an early Dungrove Elder by your side. This is because:

1) They aren't running any other removals but Vapor Snag/Dismember along with Snapcaster Mage. You are going to get your tempo robbed if you were to play Predator Ooze for most of these games.

Yet those removal spells do nothing against Dungrove Elder, and whatever Phantasmal Image they are running is also useless against Dungrove Elder. The only things to look out for are Snapcaster Mage, Blade Splicer's first striking golem tokens and Restoration Angel shenanigans.

2) They run certain evasive creatures in the form of Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration and Restoration Angel. Your Predator Ooze is going to sit there and blocking nothing, eventually getting bounced by Vapor Snag or killed by Dismember.

3) Seeing that they run a handful of cheap countermagic, you do want to seep through an early Dungrove Elder than an early Predator Ooze... considering that the former is a lot more resilient and stronger against them. If you have missed the golden opportunity to play an early Dungrove Elder, then you may have to play around those countermagic throughout your game.

Well I am only mentioning this matchup because it is such a common matchup.

As for your second question, I would say it all depends on how good/bad your hand is, your land count and what matchups you are facing.

If your hand consists a few mana dorks (along with lands) that can help cast Revenge of the Haunted eventually, I suppose it is quite a keepable hand. However if you don't or have a bunch of Revenge of the Haunted stuck in hand, I do advise a definite mulligan since those are going to be dead cards anyway.

You also do need to take note that you may be taking a risk if you are running on a low land count, despite running a high number of mana dorks.

And even if you were to have to a hand that consists a few mana dorks (and other mana sources) and a single copy of Revenge of the Haunted, you do have to consider the matchup if such a plan is feasible in the first place. If it isn't exactly favorable, you may want to consider if it is worth losing a card after the mulligan. For some of these scenarios, it would be better for you to mull despite being able to hardcast Revenge of the Haunted.

The only way to figure out if a mulligan is optimal, is still through playtesting.

Hope these suggestions can help better your game!

[Master Moja]

is Predator Ooze even a card? i think avenger is just a better 3 drop.

Actually, Predator Ooze is a card, and it has actually won me many battles simply because of the fact nothing can Remove it easily from the battlefield. Its biggest threats in Standard are Vapor Snag and Tragic Slip, one of which is rotating. I won my last FNM against Wolf Run with Predator Ooze, so be careful what you say about him. He ate many titans and werewolves that day.

@Icabob7,

As for the helpful portion of the information, Dungrove Elder will likely be the candidate to cast in an opening hand turn 2, only because we have many cards that don't allow the Ooze to see full potential. However, both cards are good, you just have to pick your battles. Blue and Black decks usually stop Predator Ooze just because you lose a lot of tempo if they send it back to your hand. Dungrove Elder can sneak past those pesky spells.

I certainly wouldn't run Wolfir Avenger instead of Predator Ooze though. As good as they both are, Wolfir Avenger is more mana-intensive and can't get any bigger than a 3/3. Predator Ooze on the other hand is harder to Remove and doesn't take much effort to make him big.

Vger's response is much better than mine, but I hope that I helped!

EDIT: Also, here is the deck I was running:

4 Arbor Elf
4 Predator Ooze
4 Dungrove Elder
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Yeva, Nature's Herald
3 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Vorapede

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Rancor
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Beast Within

22 Forest

2 Creeping Renissance
4 Naturalize
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Predatory Rampage
2 Noxious Revival
4 Prey Upon

[highfire255]

Here is the breakdown.

Is your opponent playing Whipflare? Then play the ooze, because you certainly don't NEED the dungrove down turn two, and you don't want to get two for one'ed when one of those is a dungrove that should never die to Whipflare as a two for one.

After that the rest of the analysis is easy. Do you need an indestructible blocker, or would a 2/2 be ok? Do you need to worry about blocking at all? Is your opponent playing anything that can deal with the ooze that can't deal with dungrove, like a black sun for 1, Dismember, or snags? Is your opponent playing anything that can deal with the dungrove that can't deal with the ooze, like a slag storm or day o' judgement?

I have to say against delver, frights, naya pod or zombies play the dungrove, but against RG aggro or most other agro play the ooze. As for UB control or Grixis control, it would be a toss up to what you think they have to answer you with in their hand. In that case it would probably still be the ooze first, because you would again never want to lose your dungrove to a Whipflare.

Predator Ooze is a very viable card, especially when you are playing the Ulvenwald Tracker because fighting squishy things for free counters is amazing. Plus it is so so so hard to deal with it once Rancor takes older of the ooze.

[onisama]

is Predator Ooze even a card? i think avenger is just a better 3 drop.

Strongly disagree since Predator Ooze is harder to Remove and has to be dealt with sooner.

As for the question, I'd say the Predator Ooze would be priority since it can force them to use up Black Sun's Zenith or Tragic Slip early on.

[xAciDx]

Actually, Predator Ooze is a card, and it has actually won me many battles simply because of the fact nothing can Remove it easily from the battlefield. Its biggest threats in Standard are Vapor Snag and Tragic Slip, one of which is rotating. I won my last FNM against Wolf Run with Predator Ooze, so be careful what you say about him. He ate many titans and werewolves that day.

@Icabob7,

As for the helpful portion of the information, Dungrove Elder will likely be the candidate to cast in an opening hand turn 2, only because we have many cards that don't allow the Ooze to see full potential. However, both cards are good, you just have to pick your battles. Blue and Black decks usually stop Predator Ooze just because you lose a lot of tempo if they send it back to your hand. Dungrove Elder can sneak past those pesky spells.

I certainly wouldn't run Wolfir Avenger instead of Predator Ooze though. As good as they both are, Wolfir Avenger is more mana-intensive and can't get any bigger than a 3/3. Predator Ooze on the other hand is harder to Remove and doesn't take much effort to make him big.

Vger's response is much better than mine, but I hope that I helped!

EDIT: Also, here is the deck I was running:

4 Arbor Elf
4 Predator Ooze
4 Dungrove Elder
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Yeva, Nature's Herald
3 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Vorapede

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Rancor
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Beast Within

22 Forest

2 Creeping Renissance
4 Naturalize
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Predatory Rampage
2 Noxious Revival
4 Prey Upon

I would roll with 1 less uven and 1 less thrun and add 2 more rancors 4 Rancor is a must in this type of deck

[Psyren]

actually for moja's version, i would consider switching out Naturalize for Crushing Vines, only because theres a good amount of targets for Crushing Vines: Restoration Angel, Thundermaw Dragon, Delver of Secrets, angel tokens, in addition to artifact.

Rancor is pretty much the only enchantment I remember seeing play for the past few weeks in standard and Naturalize don't really do much against it in all honesty.

[icabob7]

Thank you everyone for your very thoughtful responses.

[zhule]

4 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Dungrove Elder
3 Predator Ooze
2 Primeval Titan
2 Silklash Spider
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Thragtusk
2 Wolfir Silverheart
2 Yeva, Nature's Herald
Creatures [29]
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Rampant Growth
4 Rancor
2 Revenge of the Hunted
Spells [11]
14 Forest
2 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Rootbound Crag
Lands [20]
SIDEBOARD

1 Batterskull
2 Dismember
2 Fog
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Mimic Vat
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Ulvenwald Tracker


here's what i have thus far. any suggestions?