Mechanic: Override

[Tetraman174]

Override [cost] (You may pay an additional [cost] as you cast this spell. If you do, you can target untargetable permanents with this spell and this spell can't be countered.)


This simple mechanic would be something for two or three major cycles of cards in a set or over the course of a block that deals in prevention and countermagic. Like Buyback or Kicker, it gives your spell a boost that can puncture shields of hexproof and shroud and protect itself from countermagic.

For a common cycle, you'd see it on some basic removal, like a Naturalize or Dark Banishing:

Wrap in Rust 1G
Instant

Override G (You may pay an additional G as you cast this spell. If you do, you can target untargetable permanents with this spell and this spell can't be countered.)
Destroy target artifact or enchantment.

Extinguish 2B
Instant

Override 1BB (You may pay an additional 1BB as you cast this spell. If you do, you can target untargetable permanents with this spell and this spell can't be countered.)
Destroy target nonblack, nonartifact creature.

On an uncommon cycle, you'll have much more powerful removal and combat tricks:

Contort UU
Instant

Override 2 (You may pay an additional 2 as you cast this spell. If you do, you can target untargetable permanents with this spell and this spell can't be countered.)
Put target creature to the top of it's owner's library.

Bladestorm 3RR
Sorcery

Override 2 (You may pay an additional 2 as you cast this spell. If you do, you can target untargetable permanents with this spell and this spell can't be countered.)
Bladestorm deals 5 damage to target creature. It blocks this turn if able.
Another target creature gains first strike until end of turn.

And then a series of rares with Wrath effects and others.

Fade Into Sunglare X1WR
Sorcery

Override WR (You may pay an additional WR as you cast this spell. If you do, you can target untargetable permanents with this spell and this spell can't be countered.)
Destroy X target creatures. If you paid Fade Into Sunglare's Override cost, they can't be regenerated.

Questions/Concerns/Anxieties/Tensions welcome.

[Master Moja]

It's a decent mechanic, but that blue spell is way too good to be at UU. You basically send your opponent back a turn with it. Other that that, it seems pretty nice!

[Xyx]

Does "target untargetable permanents" mean I get to Naturalize creatures, planeswalkers and lands?

[mani]

Xyx is hitting on the rules problem with this mechanic as it's currently worded: Since "untargetable" isn't a rules term, you're opening a bigger can of worms here than you think.


Whether or not something can be a legal target depends on the rules text of that something (e.g. shroud, protection), and on the rules text of the thing that's doing the targeting (e.g. spells that specify what types of things you can target, like Naturalize, or Needle Drop, or Hex).


But the mechanic can (probably) be reworded around that.


My larger problem is with the idea of targeting "untargetable" stuff to begin with (didja miss me guys?).


It's not that shroud/hexproof/protection is the problem and removal is the answer. It's the other way around: shroud/hexproof/protection is the safeguard to make sure quality removal has limits. Removal that's too good will invalidate entire classes of cards, while creatures (or whatever else) that are too hard to kill only invalidate the subset of removal that would normally kill them.

[Xyx]

It's not that shroud/hexproof/protection is the problem and removal is the answer. It's the other way around: shroud/hexproof/protection is the safeguard to make sure quality removal has limits.

Well... I would agree, except I feel Wizards has gone too far in printing Geist of Saint Traft, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Dungrove Elder and particularly Invisible Stalker. Shroud was a solution, hexproof is overkill.

I believe that the point of hexproof was that people should play more creatures. I personally think Magic is a better game if there is both attacking and blocking. However, hexproof is invariably abused to give creatures evasion with impunity (by attaching Sword of X and Y or Rancor), and two of the creatures I listed (Sigarda, Host of Herons and Invisible Stalker) come with built-in invasion. Stuff like this can't be answered with blockers, so it forces people to fall back on sweepers and counterspells, which accomplishes the opposite of what was intended.

For the record, last Saturday I took out the entire table with Silhana Ledgewalker + Snake Umbra + Sword of Fire and Ice + Indrik Umbra + double Armadillo Cloak. It was not an interactive game.

[mani]

Well... I would agree, except I feel Wizards has gone too far in printing Geist of Saint Traft, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Dungrove Elder and particularly Invisible Stalker. Shroud was a solution, hexproof is overkill.

I disagree that hexproof by itself is overkill - no-one complained about Sacred Wolf ruining formats. Hexproof can be exacerbated by evasion or resilience much more so than normal, but that only means one needs to be careful with hexproof.

I believe that the point of hexproof was that people should play more creatures. I personally think Magic is a better game if there is both attacking and blocking. However, hexproof is invariably abused to give creatures evasion with impunity (by attaching Sword of X and Y or Rancor), and two of the creatures I listed (Sigarda, Host of Herons and Invisible Stalker) come with built-in invasion. Stuff like this can't be answered with blockers, so it forces people to fall back on sweepers and counterspells, which accomplishes the opposite of what was intended.

That makes it sound like hexproof with evasion is the problem (which WotC has admitted publicly and repeatedly, fwiw). By the way, the evasion-granter can be answered when it's a separate card, and legends can only have pseudo-hexproof at best (since they die to clones).

For the record, last Saturday I took out the entire table with Silhana Ledgewalker + Snake Umbra + Sword of Fire and Ice + Indrik Umbra + double Armadillo Cloak. It was not an interactive game.

Yeah, and some decks can't handle a resolved Phyrexian Crusader with Homicidal Seclusion and Inquisitor's Flail either. What you're complaining about is a circumstance, not a keyword.

[Tetraman174]

It's not that shroud/hexproof/protection is the problem and removal is the answer. It's the other way around: shroud/hexproof/protection is the safeguard to make sure quality removal has limits. Removal that's too good will invalidate entire classes of cards, while creatures (or whatever else) that are too hard to kill only invalidate the subset of removal that would normally kill them.

Part of my designing this mechanic was not to (directly anyway) present everyone with a mechanic that can deal with hexproof/shroud/ect. because I myself don't have the same visceral reaction to such abilities. I was more interested in something that added the flavor of giving a spell that extra push (and this is where I actually acted out in front of my laptop my hand shooting out a beam of energy and then pushing it forward with more force because I "paid the Override cost") and break the stalemate of two clashing powers.

Nevertheless I have abandoned the mechanic to the whims of the forums, responding only to say that I honestly wasn't designing this mechanic to say "hexproof and stuff with hexproof sucks". I was trying something different.

[Xyx]

That makes it sound like hexproof with evasion is the problem (which WotC has admitted publicly and repeatedly, fwiw).

Did they admit so before or after Sigarda, Host of Herons and/or Rancor were sent to the printers?

I was more interested in something that added the flavor of giving a spell that extra push (and this is where I actually acted out in front of my laptop my hand shooting out a beam of energy and then pushing it forward with more force because I "paid the Override cost") and break the stalemate of two clashing powers.

You could reword it to "~ can target permanents as if they did not have any abilities." That should get around protection as well, though you'd need to add something along the lines of "and its damage cannot be prevented" to get around that part of protection.

I have abandoned the mechanic to the whims of the forums

Heh, don't let a couple of rants about hexproof stop you.

I honestly wasn't designing this mechanic to say "hexproof and stuff with hexproof sucks". I was trying something different.

I believe you, but I wouldn't know how you could implement this ability in a way that reads anything other than "die die hexproof die!"

[mani]

I honestly wasn't designing this mechanic to say "hexproof and stuff with hexproof sucks". I was trying something different.

My bad - I kinda assumed, between the name and the ability itself, that the intention behind this was "die hexproof die!"

I think the problem with being able to target normally-untargetable things still remains, but if any part of my post reads like I was maligning your intention, I take it back.

Did they admit so before or after Sigarda, Host of Herons and/or Rancor were sent to the printers?

I don't know when they were locked into their respective sets, but I think I remember hearing them admit to problems with hexproof+evasion when people were still complaining about geist and stalker.

I haven't been keeping up with standard as much these past few weeks, but I'm pretty sure Sigarda isn't tearing up the format.

[Tetraman174]

My bad - I kinda assumed, between the name and the ability itself, that the intention behind this was "die hexproof die!"

I think the problem with being able to target normally-untargetable things still remains, but if any part of my post reads like I was maligning your intention, I take it back.

No worries.

Heh, don't let a couple of rants about hexproof stop you.

I'm not gonna fix the mechanic anymore, cause I don't need it - no longer in the set I'm working on.