On Bans and Errata
Posted 06-18-2009 at 12:41 PM by Shadowtrooper
You might think that with UDE dropping the game a few months ago bans and errata would be a topic that doesn’t really merit discussion. If those are your feelings then you have probably been living without much Vs. in your life, and probably without much of Marvel Evolutions in your collections. The reason I mention Evolutions from among all other sets out there is because it is the culprit of why this topic isn’t dead yet. Allow me to explain with a little history of Marvel Evolutions and some of the easier workings and interactions of the dreaded Exiles deck.
When Marvel Evolutions was released it quickly gave way to three different decks that created an infinite loop thanks to Black Box. Out of these three decks I was responsible for one, Bosom Buddies, and a certain community member from “hoopsville’ will forever bug me about it. UDE saw the need to take action, and decided that instead of a ban an errata on Black Box would suffice. Now this is something that I applaud UDE for doing cause instead of taking the easy way out by banning a card they simply fixed it. Now this fix was great because it eliminated the possibility of early infinite combos with the card, but it also allowed the card to be playable.
Unfortunately UDE left us in the dark before we would discover the horridness of Blink and her comrades Mariko and Sage. For those of you who haven’t played against Exiles it is a nightmare. The deck abuses extra resource points found in the way of shift counters generated mostly by Blink but also with the help of Panoptichron and Proteus. Adding more shift counters is the always handy Beak Saves the Day which when used in combination with Blink can mean anywhere from 1 to around 7 extra resource points. To a few crazy of you out there seven resource points might not seem like a lot but when you add up the previous 7 Blink got to put in, perhaps 2 from Proteus and 2 more from Panoptichron that means that the Exile player just managed to get up to 18 extra resource points as soon as turn 4. Sometimes the numbers might go up higher. We are talking about the Exiles player gaining almost double the amount of resource points the game mechanics allows for turns 1 through 4. These resource points translate to the recruitment of around 5 to 7 characters on average, which means twice as many characters on the field. If it was only that then perhaps Exiles could be manageable but the two comrades in arms make this abuse even worse. You see unlike recruiting shifting characters into play doesn’t require an empty chain, so when these characters are shifted into play their effects could be added to the chain while more characters are shifted in, or out of play. What that means is that Mariko and Sage will always get the maximum amount of either draw or burn possible. For those of you keeping track that is 7 extra cards and 14 points of burn damage which by the way are impossible to negate with the likes of Pathetic Attempt.
You might be asking yourselves; how come so many characters can be shifted into play if the uniqueness rule still applies to shift? Well first of all the deck uses Clash of Worlds. This gem allows for multiple recruits of Mariko so that all burn damage is double. Now considering that can happen burn just went up from 14 to 28 and that’s not even thinking about Beak Saves the Day interactions. Even if it didn’t have Clash of Worlds there is still the issue of Miguel O’Hara and Albert. You see both of these characters break uniqueness on their own as they gain additional names when they are in play. Miguel, while in play, also has the name Spider-Man. That is granted not by his printed name, but by his text box. This means that while you are recruiting or shifting a Miguel into play the one already in play is both Miguel and Spider-Man, so the uniqueness rule is bypassed if you will. Once the character is in play he will gain the name Spider-Man and have the same names as the previous character but it will already be to late for any issues concerning uniqueness. The same thing happens with Albert. It seems as if Exiles doesn’t really need Clash of Worlds but it is simply strengthen by it.
So we have from 5 to 7 characters consistently, 14 point of burn damage and 7 extra cards in our hands which translates to either more copies of Beak Saves the Day and therefore more draw or burn will be achieved. Warp Shards, which the deck uses to remove threats temporarily for the kill, might be another card drawn. One evil greater than the last it seems, and none easy to deal with. A 4th turn killer that is dominant in every single format from Modern to Golden.
As you can imagine Blink and company caused and still cause quite a stir in the community, and a lot of debates have begun because of them. These debates had one mayor topic: bans and errata. We all know that the problem is and always will be Blink. It is because of her ability to allow multiple shifts into play that Sage’s and Mariko’s ability cause so much damage. But, who after her?
You see one of the debates was to try and find out who caused the biggest damage between Sage and Mariko. The reasoning behind this was that Blink was designed to produce extra counters so her ability should never be touched or modified. Not one of the smartest arguments anyone here has heard before but it was debated. Some suggested that Mariko was the problem as she caused so much burn damage that it was impossible to win. Others stated that the problem was Sage because she provided with enough card advantage that Exiles always had loaded guns. Now it is my humble opinion that after Blink the greatest threat is Sage. Before you go on a rampage and tell me about how Blues686 managed to cause extraordinary amounts of burn damage with his Exiles + Cable and Bodyslide deck let me explain. Blues deck was specifically designed to cause greater amounts of burn than a regular build of Exiles. These designs and card choices were not bad, as the performance of his deck shows, but it does make the deck less effective and consistent as he reached turn 5 or above in many of his matches. When compared to EvilDave’s build that can achieve turn 4 victories more consistently we must by logic deduce that burn while an important part of the deck is not the most important.
Sage on the other hand provides us with card advantage. This card advantage allows us to gather the bullets we need to make every piece of the puzzle fit into place. It is the extra draw, which allows us to gather extra copies of Beak Saves the Day for either: more burn, more draw, or more resource points. The extra draw also allows for Common Bond to be acquired, and the cards needed to be discarded for them. Also gained by the extra draw we get Warp Shards as mentioned before, and of course Clash of Worlds if the need for them arises. As you can see the extra draw does in fact give the deck the fuel needed to win the game by turn four. If you still don’t believe that Sage is more important than Mariko I suggest you build the decks and test it. Play a few games without Sage and add any other 2 drop Exile, then drop Mariko and play any other 3 drop with shift. Odds are you won’t finish the games on 4 as consistently cause the deck really benefits from playing both of the girls but you will see that the extra draw does in fact offer more to the deck. Last proof comes from the fact that upon trying to build decks that control or could beat Exiles the common denominator was Caliban, Pestilence.
Debates continued, and people started talking about what things UDE would of have done with Exiles if they had stayed. I was almost sure someone would start wearing a WWUDED? bracelet resembling those of What Would Jesus Do? Thankfully that didn’t happen, at least not that I know of. So with UDE gone house rules began to appear. Some house rules completely banned our beloved pink lady, while others simply limited her actions. Up to this day I have to agree with house rules even though I don’t like them. The reason I don’t like them is because even though they are very simple to follow, if you don’t want to follow them you don’t play. That’s an OK solution to the problem, but when you have a house rule that states one thing only to play in a place that has a different house rule then you have a lot of issues. Issues of going unprepared for a current meta, bringing and testing a deck that won’t function as intended because of the particular house rule and so forth.
Some players have looked at the Exiles copy of Nocturne for a solution. You see unlike most trigger powers of the Exiles Nocturnes power only works when recruited. This definitely hinders her ability, and it is a good reason why she hardly sees play. Upon looking at Nocturne these players believe that perhaps Blink should be limited to have her come into play trigger work only as a recruitment effect. While this would put control on the Exile leader it will also make her shift useless. After that is done what reason would you honestly have to shift her into play? I don’t think that’s what the Exiles are about, and I don’t think that’s the fix that should be done on her.
Another thing when the subject of bans and possible errata comes to be discussed is that some people will forget about Sage and Mariko thus focusing only on Blink. That shouldn’t be done. IMHO these girls go hand in hand, more so in the Exiles build than in any other deck. Problem is most of us see Blink as the only problem with the deck and while she is the heart and soul of the Exiles deck she is not alone, and doing a ban on her will lower the power level of the deck to a very high degree. Now I’m all for lowering the power level of the deck but what I’m not for is dropping it to a point where the deck loses all of it’s competitiveness. I have always had a soft spot for the following errata on the three ladies:
“Whenever Blink enters play, put a shift counter on each shifted card you own. This power only triggers if a character with the name Blink and version Earth-295 – Clarice Ferguson has not entered play under your control this turn.”
“Whenever Sage enters play, draw a card for each other character you control that entered play this turn. This power only triggers if a character with the name Sage and version Earth-616 has not entered play under your control this turn.”
“Whenever Mariko Yashida enters play, each opponent loses 2 endurance for each other character you control that entered play this turn. This power only triggers if a character with the name Mariko Yashida and version Earth-2109 has not entered play under your control this turn.”
I have done some testing with these errata on Blink and company and while it doesn’t wreak the deck completely it does lower the level of intensity from it. The most obvious result is that it changes the kill turn from turn 4 to turn 5. In my eyes that’s something I can live with as there are plenty of decks that can accomplish that same feat.
Now the reason this type of errata should be applied to all 3 ladies instead of just one is because I have tested the deck with only the errata on Blink and it just doesn’t work. You see the following scenario can be achieved if only Blink receives an erratum:
Turn 1 – Resource (Panoptichron, you have 4 turns to get it so don't think it's impossible) + Shift Blink.
Turn 2 – Resource + Proteus. Activate Proteus on Blink, she now has 2 counters.
Turn 3 – Resource. Activate Proteus on Blink, she now has 3 counters. Shift 3 characters out with one resource each. Shift Blink into play and add another counter on all 3 characters. Before the recovery phase use Warp Shards on your own Blink. (At this point you have 4 shifted characters that can come into play without any problems.)
Turn 4 - You play a resource and shift another character out with a resource point. Use that shift counter to play A Finer World searching for a 3 drop, and you shift him out. You now have 6 shifted characters and 2 resource points left. Activate Proteus and put his ability on the chain. Use Panoptichron on Proteus putting the 2 shift counters on the character that has non because of A Finer World. After that, resolve Proteus’ activation giving the counter to Proteus himself. You now have 7 characters ready to enter play. Start by Shifting Blink and filling out any needed counters. Then Bring in Proteus so that you get to use his ability if needed. You can now bring in the rest of the characters into play. At this point you still have 2 resource points left that can be easily used for Sage or Mariko if a copy of Beak Saves the Day found itself into your hand. If this was the case you could play up to two copies of Beak Saves the Day without worry because you still have 2 resource points left. These two resource points can also be used for another Sage. Now we must remember that we can also use another copy of Panoptichron on Mariko give her shift counter and bring her in with Shadowcat. Same thing applies to Sage.
Yes Exiles will still be able to recruit more than it’s fair amount of characters on turn 4, but by controlling not only the damage but also the draw that the deck is used to we can effectively knock it down a notch. Only with a God hand can the deck take a win on turn 4, and more than a fair share of decks can accomplish that as well. In the end the errata needs to be applied to all 3 ladies if we want to keep Blink on the game and not have to ban her, which is what I think should be done. I hate bans, especially if there are ways to avoid it. But I also believe that if someone should break Blink in the format after her errata has been implemented then there is no other choice but to ban her.
As you can see that takes the count to 4 cards out of MEV that have touched the issue of bans and errata. Next card that has been discussed isn’t in MEV but it is because of the Energize keyword presented in MEV that a lot of discussion has been developed. I am talking about Armed Escort.
Armed Escort is an equipment that was introduced way back in Marvel Knights. This equipment allowed for a defender to be changed, either to a non-defending character, or the defending character by a simple activation. Some simple interactions with the card would be to make a character like Master Man defend twice in one single attack so that he would obtain four +1/+1 counters rather than 2. Now while this can only be achieved perhaps once or twice per turn if you have the means to ready the equipped character it is by no means an abusive interaction. This is where Energize enters the equation. If a character with Energize would be equipped with Armed Escort he could effectively create an infinite loop where the following would happen:
Player A declares and attack into a character player B has. Attack is declared legal and the character exhausts. Player B exhausts his Energize character equipped with Armed Escort so that it becomes the defender. Energize character readies because of the keyword, as he has now become the defender. Once again the Energize character exhaust in order to use Armed Escort so that he becomes the defender once again, and once again readies because of the Energize keyword. This interaction can continue indefinitely. Again while an infinite loop not an abusive interaction, that is unless Red Skull, Aleksander Lukin-RAID is adjacent to said Energize character. This version of the Red Skull has a leader ability that causes 2 points of burn damage to all opposing players while you gain 2 endurance points every time an adjacent character defends. Basically that creates an opponent which you will not want to attack because once you do it is game over.
Yes this interaction is of the Golden Age era and there is enough equipment hate out there to deal with this problem. Heck Doom alone has two answers for this and none of them are equipment hate. One of them is Reign of Terror on the equipped character and/or Mystical Paralysis on equipped character. So yes there are enough answers to this problem. So why bother with it? Short answer would be that just because there are answers to a certain broken play it doesn't mean that it is any less broken. Long answer? Well it was clear back then when MMK was released that there was no way that Armed Escort could be used more than once per turn consistently and effectively. That being said we know that this type of interaction is not what was intended for the card when it was released. Same things could be said about a lot of other cards, but not all of those cards allow for turn 3 interactions that spell death to opposing players that rely on attacks to win the game. Funny thing saying decks that rely on attacks cause that’s the vast majority of them. Another thing is that despite the large quantities of solutions to this “combo” in Golden Age there are very limited options to deal with this interaction in the Bring Your Own Two Teams format. Cards like: Meltdown, and Level 12 Intelligence, which are the main equipment hate cards can’t be played. Heck even Doom loses his above mentioned answers in that format. So what teams do we use with Crime Lords? Well X-Men is the most obvious choice. They have 3 characters with Energize in Beast, Forge, and Nightcrawler. They also have Time Breach to search out for the missing characters, and a 1 drop Forge from MOR to search the deck for Armed Escort. They also carry Children of the Atom if any out of combat stuns are tried to avoid the combo from going off. Truly a match made in heaven.
Most of the community agrees that in order to bring this “combo” to an end a simple addition to Armed Escort’s text that states that it can only be used once per turn would be the most effective way to deal with the problem.
Discussion of bans an errata have been discussed to a great extent recently in our other means of Vs info thanks to a post created by rules guru HeroComplex. That post can also be found here on TCGPlayer, and it is called: The Great Ban/Errata Divide. For those of you that want to comment and post your opinions on the matter feel free to visit the threads. This has been a nice step made by the Vs. Council and I hope everyone puts forth their own two cents in the matter as the final decision will affect all of us in the end.
Before I finish this up I would like to say that there are other issues worth discussing on the grounds of bans and errata. At the moment thought these two are the most pressing, so these are the only ones that I discussed. The possible errata that I have suggested here for the Exile gals have been the same that I have been pushing forward for a long time in various threads from VsRealms to VsSystem.or and here on TCG. I have tested them and they have worked within my playgroup. I suggest you all give them a try before lighting up the ban torches and decide that the only way to fix the problem is with a ban. If it should come to that then fine, but I believe we owe ourselves the chance to test out possible solutions first.
When Marvel Evolutions was released it quickly gave way to three different decks that created an infinite loop thanks to Black Box. Out of these three decks I was responsible for one, Bosom Buddies, and a certain community member from “hoopsville’ will forever bug me about it. UDE saw the need to take action, and decided that instead of a ban an errata on Black Box would suffice. Now this is something that I applaud UDE for doing cause instead of taking the easy way out by banning a card they simply fixed it. Now this fix was great because it eliminated the possibility of early infinite combos with the card, but it also allowed the card to be playable.
Unfortunately UDE left us in the dark before we would discover the horridness of Blink and her comrades Mariko and Sage. For those of you who haven’t played against Exiles it is a nightmare. The deck abuses extra resource points found in the way of shift counters generated mostly by Blink but also with the help of Panoptichron and Proteus. Adding more shift counters is the always handy Beak Saves the Day which when used in combination with Blink can mean anywhere from 1 to around 7 extra resource points. To a few crazy of you out there seven resource points might not seem like a lot but when you add up the previous 7 Blink got to put in, perhaps 2 from Proteus and 2 more from Panoptichron that means that the Exile player just managed to get up to 18 extra resource points as soon as turn 4. Sometimes the numbers might go up higher. We are talking about the Exiles player gaining almost double the amount of resource points the game mechanics allows for turns 1 through 4. These resource points translate to the recruitment of around 5 to 7 characters on average, which means twice as many characters on the field. If it was only that then perhaps Exiles could be manageable but the two comrades in arms make this abuse even worse. You see unlike recruiting shifting characters into play doesn’t require an empty chain, so when these characters are shifted into play their effects could be added to the chain while more characters are shifted in, or out of play. What that means is that Mariko and Sage will always get the maximum amount of either draw or burn possible. For those of you keeping track that is 7 extra cards and 14 points of burn damage which by the way are impossible to negate with the likes of Pathetic Attempt.
You might be asking yourselves; how come so many characters can be shifted into play if the uniqueness rule still applies to shift? Well first of all the deck uses Clash of Worlds. This gem allows for multiple recruits of Mariko so that all burn damage is double. Now considering that can happen burn just went up from 14 to 28 and that’s not even thinking about Beak Saves the Day interactions. Even if it didn’t have Clash of Worlds there is still the issue of Miguel O’Hara and Albert. You see both of these characters break uniqueness on their own as they gain additional names when they are in play. Miguel, while in play, also has the name Spider-Man. That is granted not by his printed name, but by his text box. This means that while you are recruiting or shifting a Miguel into play the one already in play is both Miguel and Spider-Man, so the uniqueness rule is bypassed if you will. Once the character is in play he will gain the name Spider-Man and have the same names as the previous character but it will already be to late for any issues concerning uniqueness. The same thing happens with Albert. It seems as if Exiles doesn’t really need Clash of Worlds but it is simply strengthen by it.
So we have from 5 to 7 characters consistently, 14 point of burn damage and 7 extra cards in our hands which translates to either more copies of Beak Saves the Day and therefore more draw or burn will be achieved. Warp Shards, which the deck uses to remove threats temporarily for the kill, might be another card drawn. One evil greater than the last it seems, and none easy to deal with. A 4th turn killer that is dominant in every single format from Modern to Golden.
As you can imagine Blink and company caused and still cause quite a stir in the community, and a lot of debates have begun because of them. These debates had one mayor topic: bans and errata. We all know that the problem is and always will be Blink. It is because of her ability to allow multiple shifts into play that Sage’s and Mariko’s ability cause so much damage. But, who after her?
You see one of the debates was to try and find out who caused the biggest damage between Sage and Mariko. The reasoning behind this was that Blink was designed to produce extra counters so her ability should never be touched or modified. Not one of the smartest arguments anyone here has heard before but it was debated. Some suggested that Mariko was the problem as she caused so much burn damage that it was impossible to win. Others stated that the problem was Sage because she provided with enough card advantage that Exiles always had loaded guns. Now it is my humble opinion that after Blink the greatest threat is Sage. Before you go on a rampage and tell me about how Blues686 managed to cause extraordinary amounts of burn damage with his Exiles + Cable and Bodyslide deck let me explain. Blues deck was specifically designed to cause greater amounts of burn than a regular build of Exiles. These designs and card choices were not bad, as the performance of his deck shows, but it does make the deck less effective and consistent as he reached turn 5 or above in many of his matches. When compared to EvilDave’s build that can achieve turn 4 victories more consistently we must by logic deduce that burn while an important part of the deck is not the most important.
Sage on the other hand provides us with card advantage. This card advantage allows us to gather the bullets we need to make every piece of the puzzle fit into place. It is the extra draw, which allows us to gather extra copies of Beak Saves the Day for either: more burn, more draw, or more resource points. The extra draw also allows for Common Bond to be acquired, and the cards needed to be discarded for them. Also gained by the extra draw we get Warp Shards as mentioned before, and of course Clash of Worlds if the need for them arises. As you can see the extra draw does in fact give the deck the fuel needed to win the game by turn four. If you still don’t believe that Sage is more important than Mariko I suggest you build the decks and test it. Play a few games without Sage and add any other 2 drop Exile, then drop Mariko and play any other 3 drop with shift. Odds are you won’t finish the games on 4 as consistently cause the deck really benefits from playing both of the girls but you will see that the extra draw does in fact offer more to the deck. Last proof comes from the fact that upon trying to build decks that control or could beat Exiles the common denominator was Caliban, Pestilence.
Debates continued, and people started talking about what things UDE would of have done with Exiles if they had stayed. I was almost sure someone would start wearing a WWUDED? bracelet resembling those of What Would Jesus Do? Thankfully that didn’t happen, at least not that I know of. So with UDE gone house rules began to appear. Some house rules completely banned our beloved pink lady, while others simply limited her actions. Up to this day I have to agree with house rules even though I don’t like them. The reason I don’t like them is because even though they are very simple to follow, if you don’t want to follow them you don’t play. That’s an OK solution to the problem, but when you have a house rule that states one thing only to play in a place that has a different house rule then you have a lot of issues. Issues of going unprepared for a current meta, bringing and testing a deck that won’t function as intended because of the particular house rule and so forth.
Some players have looked at the Exiles copy of Nocturne for a solution. You see unlike most trigger powers of the Exiles Nocturnes power only works when recruited. This definitely hinders her ability, and it is a good reason why she hardly sees play. Upon looking at Nocturne these players believe that perhaps Blink should be limited to have her come into play trigger work only as a recruitment effect. While this would put control on the Exile leader it will also make her shift useless. After that is done what reason would you honestly have to shift her into play? I don’t think that’s what the Exiles are about, and I don’t think that’s the fix that should be done on her.
Another thing when the subject of bans and possible errata comes to be discussed is that some people will forget about Sage and Mariko thus focusing only on Blink. That shouldn’t be done. IMHO these girls go hand in hand, more so in the Exiles build than in any other deck. Problem is most of us see Blink as the only problem with the deck and while she is the heart and soul of the Exiles deck she is not alone, and doing a ban on her will lower the power level of the deck to a very high degree. Now I’m all for lowering the power level of the deck but what I’m not for is dropping it to a point where the deck loses all of it’s competitiveness. I have always had a soft spot for the following errata on the three ladies:
“Whenever Blink enters play, put a shift counter on each shifted card you own. This power only triggers if a character with the name Blink and version Earth-295 – Clarice Ferguson has not entered play under your control this turn.”
“Whenever Sage enters play, draw a card for each other character you control that entered play this turn. This power only triggers if a character with the name Sage and version Earth-616 has not entered play under your control this turn.”
“Whenever Mariko Yashida enters play, each opponent loses 2 endurance for each other character you control that entered play this turn. This power only triggers if a character with the name Mariko Yashida and version Earth-2109 has not entered play under your control this turn.”
I have done some testing with these errata on Blink and company and while it doesn’t wreak the deck completely it does lower the level of intensity from it. The most obvious result is that it changes the kill turn from turn 4 to turn 5. In my eyes that’s something I can live with as there are plenty of decks that can accomplish that same feat.
Now the reason this type of errata should be applied to all 3 ladies instead of just one is because I have tested the deck with only the errata on Blink and it just doesn’t work. You see the following scenario can be achieved if only Blink receives an erratum:
Turn 1 – Resource (Panoptichron, you have 4 turns to get it so don't think it's impossible) + Shift Blink.
Turn 2 – Resource + Proteus. Activate Proteus on Blink, she now has 2 counters.
Turn 3 – Resource. Activate Proteus on Blink, she now has 3 counters. Shift 3 characters out with one resource each. Shift Blink into play and add another counter on all 3 characters. Before the recovery phase use Warp Shards on your own Blink. (At this point you have 4 shifted characters that can come into play without any problems.)
Turn 4 - You play a resource and shift another character out with a resource point. Use that shift counter to play A Finer World searching for a 3 drop, and you shift him out. You now have 6 shifted characters and 2 resource points left. Activate Proteus and put his ability on the chain. Use Panoptichron on Proteus putting the 2 shift counters on the character that has non because of A Finer World. After that, resolve Proteus’ activation giving the counter to Proteus himself. You now have 7 characters ready to enter play. Start by Shifting Blink and filling out any needed counters. Then Bring in Proteus so that you get to use his ability if needed. You can now bring in the rest of the characters into play. At this point you still have 2 resource points left that can be easily used for Sage or Mariko if a copy of Beak Saves the Day found itself into your hand. If this was the case you could play up to two copies of Beak Saves the Day without worry because you still have 2 resource points left. These two resource points can also be used for another Sage. Now we must remember that we can also use another copy of Panoptichron on Mariko give her shift counter and bring her in with Shadowcat. Same thing applies to Sage.
Yes Exiles will still be able to recruit more than it’s fair amount of characters on turn 4, but by controlling not only the damage but also the draw that the deck is used to we can effectively knock it down a notch. Only with a God hand can the deck take a win on turn 4, and more than a fair share of decks can accomplish that as well. In the end the errata needs to be applied to all 3 ladies if we want to keep Blink on the game and not have to ban her, which is what I think should be done. I hate bans, especially if there are ways to avoid it. But I also believe that if someone should break Blink in the format after her errata has been implemented then there is no other choice but to ban her.
As you can see that takes the count to 4 cards out of MEV that have touched the issue of bans and errata. Next card that has been discussed isn’t in MEV but it is because of the Energize keyword presented in MEV that a lot of discussion has been developed. I am talking about Armed Escort.
Armed Escort is an equipment that was introduced way back in Marvel Knights. This equipment allowed for a defender to be changed, either to a non-defending character, or the defending character by a simple activation. Some simple interactions with the card would be to make a character like Master Man defend twice in one single attack so that he would obtain four +1/+1 counters rather than 2. Now while this can only be achieved perhaps once or twice per turn if you have the means to ready the equipped character it is by no means an abusive interaction. This is where Energize enters the equation. If a character with Energize would be equipped with Armed Escort he could effectively create an infinite loop where the following would happen:
Player A declares and attack into a character player B has. Attack is declared legal and the character exhausts. Player B exhausts his Energize character equipped with Armed Escort so that it becomes the defender. Energize character readies because of the keyword, as he has now become the defender. Once again the Energize character exhaust in order to use Armed Escort so that he becomes the defender once again, and once again readies because of the Energize keyword. This interaction can continue indefinitely. Again while an infinite loop not an abusive interaction, that is unless Red Skull, Aleksander Lukin-RAID is adjacent to said Energize character. This version of the Red Skull has a leader ability that causes 2 points of burn damage to all opposing players while you gain 2 endurance points every time an adjacent character defends. Basically that creates an opponent which you will not want to attack because once you do it is game over.
Yes this interaction is of the Golden Age era and there is enough equipment hate out there to deal with this problem. Heck Doom alone has two answers for this and none of them are equipment hate. One of them is Reign of Terror on the equipped character and/or Mystical Paralysis on equipped character. So yes there are enough answers to this problem. So why bother with it? Short answer would be that just because there are answers to a certain broken play it doesn't mean that it is any less broken. Long answer? Well it was clear back then when MMK was released that there was no way that Armed Escort could be used more than once per turn consistently and effectively. That being said we know that this type of interaction is not what was intended for the card when it was released. Same things could be said about a lot of other cards, but not all of those cards allow for turn 3 interactions that spell death to opposing players that rely on attacks to win the game. Funny thing saying decks that rely on attacks cause that’s the vast majority of them. Another thing is that despite the large quantities of solutions to this “combo” in Golden Age there are very limited options to deal with this interaction in the Bring Your Own Two Teams format. Cards like: Meltdown, and Level 12 Intelligence, which are the main equipment hate cards can’t be played. Heck even Doom loses his above mentioned answers in that format. So what teams do we use with Crime Lords? Well X-Men is the most obvious choice. They have 3 characters with Energize in Beast, Forge, and Nightcrawler. They also have Time Breach to search out for the missing characters, and a 1 drop Forge from MOR to search the deck for Armed Escort. They also carry Children of the Atom if any out of combat stuns are tried to avoid the combo from going off. Truly a match made in heaven.
Most of the community agrees that in order to bring this “combo” to an end a simple addition to Armed Escort’s text that states that it can only be used once per turn would be the most effective way to deal with the problem.
Discussion of bans an errata have been discussed to a great extent recently in our other means of Vs info thanks to a post created by rules guru HeroComplex. That post can also be found here on TCGPlayer, and it is called: The Great Ban/Errata Divide. For those of you that want to comment and post your opinions on the matter feel free to visit the threads. This has been a nice step made by the Vs. Council and I hope everyone puts forth their own two cents in the matter as the final decision will affect all of us in the end.
Before I finish this up I would like to say that there are other issues worth discussing on the grounds of bans and errata. At the moment thought these two are the most pressing, so these are the only ones that I discussed. The possible errata that I have suggested here for the Exile gals have been the same that I have been pushing forward for a long time in various threads from VsRealms to VsSystem.or and here on TCG. I have tested them and they have worked within my playgroup. I suggest you all give them a try before lighting up the ban torches and decide that the only way to fix the problem is with a ban. If it should come to that then fine, but I believe we owe ourselves the chance to test out possible solutions first.
Total Comments 19
Comments
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great write shadow and I agree with you 100%, I know the exiles will be more playable (I mean non abusive) if we choose to use this erratas, and for armed escort I think thats the best choice to do. we dont need to shorten our card pool now that we are not going to have new cards. lets fix them and have fun playing with themPosted 06-19-2009 at 12:32 PM by emmanuel
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One thought: instead of all the "with X name and Y versions" in the text box, why not just say "another copy of this card"? The "copy" implies any card with the same name+versions (possibly also "printed" name+versions), so that would cover your attempt to restrict it to once-per-turn without having to clutter up the text box quite so much.
Another thought: instead of having Armed Escort give an activated power to the equipped character, why not make it so that Armed Escort's payment is "Exhaust Armed Escort"? There's no way to independently ready equipment cards, so it means no abuse.
A side note on that last one (for those who like the equipment) could be that rephrasing the Escort's ability would make it so that the equipment then has the power, rather than conferring a power onto the equipped character. Which means that even if the equipped character is hit with Only Human (which is one of the ways to destroy Energize anyway), they can still use the Escort.Posted 06-19-2009 at 03:37 PM by Number6
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Thanks for the kind words emmanuel, I aim to please. You are correct we shouldn't be wanting to shorten our card pool, even if it is only just one card. The thing is I fear that once Blink is banned then a new bully will show up, quite possibly Wolverine and then talks of banning Wolverine will begin. After that they will jump on the Quicksilver wagon yet again. I mean I don't want the game to fall down a banning spiral, so lets try the errata first, then if there is no other solution ban.
Number6: 1st of all I'm glad your still here with us. Second I agree that your suggestion will shorten the text but since I don't know if the game will recognize that sort of text. I just went with what I knew. Armed Escort would be controlled in both ways just the same, I simply went with the once per turn limitation because its pretty much what everyone in the community agrees it should be done.Posted 06-19-2009 at 09:57 PM by Shadowtrooper
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Posted 06-20-2009 at 10:11 AM by Number6
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Mirror Image states "for a copy of that character" which I think works out just fine for the errata.
“Whenever Blink enters play, put a shift counter on each shifted card you own. This power only triggers if a copy of this character has not come into play under your control this turn.”
I guess we do save a lot of text this way.Posted 06-20-2009 at 12:08 PM by Shadowtrooper
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Posted 06-20-2009 at 01:35 PM by 123deckbox
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Posted 06-20-2009 at 01:49 PM by Shadowtrooper
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Posted 06-20-2009 at 04:22 PM by Number6
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Posted 06-21-2009 at 12:12 PM by Shadowtrooper
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Sure, but you can also just say "Blink" instead of "this card" since in this case they'll mean the same thing:
"When Blink enters play, put a shift counter on each shifted card you own unless another copy of Blink entered play under your control this turn."
Similar format can be used for each of the other Exiles you covered in this article, I think. Should be sufficient from both a rules standpoint and a concise-language viewpoint.Posted 06-22-2009 at 12:16 PM by Number6
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Posted 06-22-2009 at 12:21 PM by Shadowtrooper
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I couldn't agree more with the Exiles ban or errata
Originally I thought since the game is discontinued there's no reason to mess with anything until I played an Exiles deck last night and it was ridiculous how the guy played it. I mean he must have shifted 3 drop Blink at least 3 times by turn 5 or 6 and recrutied 10 characters TEN. Then he shifted ANOTHER Sage for 11 characters to DRAW TWENTY ONE CARDS IN ONE TURN! That was ridiculous. That was asanine. That shouldn't happen. Since the deck is kind of built around 3 drop Blink I don't think it should be banned but it needs a once per turn thing.Posted 09-12-2009 at 11:39 PM by C. Ryan
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Dear unregistered. People do care about Blink. There is not one single format in which Exiles can't accomplish a turn 4 kill. NONE. and sure there might be 3rd turn decks but what we are talking about is that Exiles accomplishes this like 95% of the time. Would you like to be on the receiving side of Exiles and their almost perfect build?
I like to be competitive as much as anyone out there, but I want players to have a chance to beat me. I want players to make me think on my toes as far as what would be the best course of action, I want them to put me on the spot. Playing Exiles that just doesn't happen.Posted 10-04-2009 at 09:38 PM by Shadowtrooper
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Dear unregistered. I don't know how much into Vs you are, and how many sites related to Vs you visit. Currently the most visited site is VsSystem.org. In it most of the players that are active in the community have chosen a few other members to create the Vs System Council. The council is there to make recommendations of what actions are best to continue the game without broken interactions, broken cards, quite possibly add new fan sets into rotation to provide new content to players and a weekly MWS Hobby League. Neither I or The Council have any authority to Ban anything. Like I stated earlier we simply make recommendations to better serve the community. Many hobby leagues and stores follow their own set of rules, others agree with the suggested bans or errata that The Council gives.
This issue of Blink came forth in VsSystem.Org (long time ago) and I decided to blog about it simply to express what I felt was the best solution for the problem. You can agree or disagree with me all you want but truth be told UDE would have done something about Blink one way or another had they not discontinued the game. How do I know this? Simply because I am not only a player but a student of the game. This card follows the same trajectories and patterns that others that have received bans follow, for example Dr. Light. Blink does more than Dr. Light as it effectively creates a resource point advantage 3 times or more of what "regular" decks create. Not even Kree with a press chain can keep up with Exiles. Everyone who knows anything about Vs agrees that MEV as a whole was the most busted set ever and Blink and Exiles are the mayor offenders.
I know Exiles can be beaten. I proved it when I created Bosom Buddies, a deck that in many ways is stronger than Exiles, and can 99% of decks out there. Difference is that with a few choice cards Bosom Buddies can be dealt with perhaps even stopped. There is no such thing for Exiles. Not in Modern, Silver, or Golden. The way it goes is either: play Exiles and lose to Bosom Buddies while beating everything else, or play Bosom Buddies and beat Exiles and lose to any random deck that carries Caliban, or play a random deck with Caliban beat Bosom Buddies and lose to Exiles. Basically those are the only 3 options and when you can diversify the field by doing something about Blink then the game of Vs as a whole becomes better. If you have a deck that you think can beat Exiles simply post it up and discuss it with other players. I am sure the community will be grateful for your insight, as will I.
Playing Exiles is not as difficult as you think, or as you are making out it out to be. An experienced Vs player can get the hang of the deck from seeing the deck run once, and most players get the general idea after 2 games. Rookies or newbs do tend to have to think about the choices of play because of lack of experience and will think that Blink is necessary as printed to win on the 4th turn. Let me tell you she isn't needed as printed to get turn 4 wins. Check out the threads on VsSystem.org when even with restrictions the Exiles deck managed turn 4th wins when they got perfect hands. Without perfect hands they simply took one turn longer to eliminate the competition.
UDE as a company made many mistakes, many of which were left "hanging" because they decided to call it quits. As mentioned above some of them are: Blink, Armed Escort, and identity and name issues. Why is it that some players have problems with the community and The Council addressing these issues? You don't have to do as they recommend, so what's the problem? People can't have opinions now? We can't talk and discuss what we feel is an appropriate action to be taken? Let me tell you something buddy, a lot of people (over 80% in fact) agree that something has to be done about Blink and in fact The Council of Vs players ended up recommending both an erratum on Armed Escort and a ban on Blink.
Me banning it or limiting her on my neck of the woods does not affect your hobby leagues or events so why such negativity? Why does it bother you so much that I express my thoughts on Blink? As I said you either follow what The Council suggests or you don't, why you come here with the attitude is beyond me.Posted 10-05-2009 at 04:11 PM by Shadowtrooper
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You make a very good point. I can't argue with the points you have made. But please enlighten me on how exiles win on turn 4 without Blink?Posted 10-05-2009 at 06:39 PM by Unregistered -
Sure thing. Here is a link where all my testing results with various types of errata on Blink can be found.
http://s11.zetaboards.com/vssystem/topic/7169676/1/
I had to do 3 games per errata to get a few numbers in. I wish I had done more but I needed to test 5 different texts and the info was needed. Still it shows that Exiles can still manage turn 4 wins without Blink as is, which is why banning her was the only effective recommendation The Council could offer.
I was against banning her at all times as I really thought that knocking Exiles down a peg would be enough. Oh well.Posted 10-05-2009 at 07:14 PM by Shadowtrooper
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