BG Rock - Discussion Thread [Archive]

boilerXmen4116

03-15-2005, 07:29 AM

the two builds are almost identical. the second takes the persecutes out and '4-ofs' the trolls and jens. i would think to post an aggro and a control build. as for an aggro build, feel free to rip it for how 'poorly' aggro performs over control. dont give supporting results though, just rip it for being labeled aggro. now make up your results and say you just played it at last weeks FNM. :)

4xbirds
4xSTE
4xwitness
4xtroll
3xnekrataal
3xiwamori
3xkarstoderm
3xkokusho
4xterror
3xgrafted wargear
3xcommune with nature
22xlands
side
2xcloud
3xnaturalize
3xmolderslug
4xpersecute
3xplow under

the board transforms the aggro to control. i'm thinking of dropping the birds for rampant growth since the only 3 drops i'm accelerating to is troll and wargear. while the mass of 4 drops is staggering. kokusho's are a little big for the mana curve, but work so well with grafted wargear. also, taking the karstoderms out for persecutes might be effective. something needs to disrupt their plans when going aggro, because you lose so much steam later in the game, you have to have the advantage early to keep your tempo ahead.

Wicked_Mind

03-15-2005, 09:08 AM

Transformer sideboards rock :P (I got a transformers DVDbox with 3hrs of transformers :D, I just had to say it..)

but add some cranial extractions man I know there expensive but with the current metagame (read: with noa ffinity around) it's fast enough and can cripple a deck or win a game...

Hajime Saito

03-15-2005, 09:21 AM

Extraction cripples some decks others dont care too much. Like Ponza they goal is to prevent you casting Extraction and then beat you down.

But yeah its a mighty powerful card anyways

Wicked_Mind

03-15-2005, 09:39 AM

If I extract stonerain or moltenrain there LD count drops by 4 if you get the change to extract MUC and extract a rewind or hinder you drop them by 4counters..

I can't see how CE cannot cripple a deck or completly make it useless..

Rhino408

03-15-2005, 10:39 AM

yeah yeah i've seen it MD distress and persecute and so forth....

persecute yes distress no. How many persecutes i'd say 2-3. I mi9ght just go back to my less creature build but MUC runs me over. I need to probably add birds in the deck BLAH!

towarmforacoat

03-15-2005, 11:58 AM

Does anybody know the difference between the Black Green deck the administrater posted, and B/G "Rock"?

These two decks both look alike. What cards make Black Green defferent from the Rock Black Green?

shzlbmnpstik

03-15-2005, 12:09 PM

Rock is Phyrexian Plaguelord... And thus this isn't Rock... Nor are those builds good, Birds is a must, I wouldn't play the deck without it.And since nobody tends to give actual discussion to these "daily" and "discussion" threads, why waste your breath? We have a thriving BG thread already sticked...

Akroma Angel of Wrath

03-15-2005, 01:04 PM

Rock isn't plaguelord, it is more the B/G archetype with accel, spot removal, and sweepers. If a card defines it, I'd say it is death cloud.

DAP

03-15-2005, 01:35 PM

I'm gonna throw out my two current builds.

AGGRO:

2 CoB
12 Forest
5 Swamp

3 Mox

4 BoP
4 Sakura
4 Zealot
4 Troll
3 Witness

4 Shortfang
3 Kokusho

4 Sword F+I

4 Echoing Decay
4 Barter in Blood

Sideboard
4 Naturalize
4 Plow Under
3 terror
4 Persecute

The Sword works wonders in so many ways. It often turns what would have been 3 uneventful game turns into you kicking someones face in.

I like Barter in the main because I often win games by casting Kokusho and sacing him around turn 5.

Now for my current control oriented build. I played a few games today and have adjusted a few cards since my last post in the old forum.

Control:

1 Boseiju
2 CoB
12 Forest
7 Swamp

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 BoP
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kodama's Reach
3 Eternal Witness
3 Kodama N

3 Night's Whisper
4 Echoing Decay
3 Rend Flesh
3 Death Cloud
3 Kokusho

sideboard
4 Natralize
4 Plow Under
3 Terror
4 Persecute

I replaced Jens with Reach and put the Top back in. The side board hasn't changed and I doubt it will for a while. I find Persecute to be far better than Extraction right now and see no reason to run Extraction at all since KCI also got the axe and Tooth has too many Extraction targets to worry about while a well timed Persecute is big trouble for them.

Sylvan Scrying has become a must counter spell against MUC and I don't think we can have too many of those.

Kodama N is absolutely sick in this deck. I am not even going to explain why again, you can either try it or not.

Night's Whisper is the best card draw in standard right now IMO. I don't see any reason not to run it in sets of 3 or 4 these days.

Rend Flesh is the most questionable card IMO. There are a ton of options but so far RF has performed very well.

Death Cloud is still the most effective card in standard right now. If you don't run it you WILL fear it so just play with it already. The key to DC is knowing when to play it and sometimes you have to be able to decide that before the first turn and play accordingly. This makes playing properly with the card quite difficult but that is no reason not to play with it.

shzlbmnpstik

03-15-2005, 03:43 PM

Rock isn't plaguelord, it is more the B/G archetype with accel, spot removal, and sweepers. If a card defines it, I'd say it is death cloud.

*sigh*

The ORIGINAL Rock, THE Rock itself, is Plaguelord, and if I'm not mistakin, His Millions were the Squirrels from Derangned Hermit. Although I wasn't around then...

BG is an archtype, not The Rock.

Why not run Plaguelord, in the aggro builds, while were on the subject. Maybe a MaceyRock varient, but there arn't any good Disruption spells. Possible Chittering Rats and Ravenous Rats, but the deck needs a Therapy. Here is a build I just made, needs work though.

4 Chittering Rats
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sylvok Explorer
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Nezumi Shortfang
2 Karstoderm
2 Eternal Witness

4 Sword of Fire/Ice
4 Echoing Decay
3 Night's Whisper

3 City of Brass
3 Tendo Ice Bridge
9 Forest
8 Swamp

Sideboard
4 Terror
4 Persecute
4 Plow Under
3 Naturalize

Mana Base ain't to good, but Tendos help alot.

Rhino408

03-15-2005, 06:24 PM

***warning.
~raybomb

iceman8352

03-15-2005, 09:57 PM

*sigh*

The ORIGINAL Rock, THE Rock itself, is Plaguelord, and if I'm not mistakin, His Millions were the Squirrels from Derangned Hermit. Although I wasn't around then...

You would be correct.

BG is an archtype, not The Rock.

I'm glad that someone else also realizes this. To everyone that just 'assumes' that B/G = The Rock, The Rock is a deck that is based upon card advantage and utility. Why there have been some decent shots at making Rock-like cards, it will never be the same as the real Rock.

Chad

DAP

03-15-2005, 10:30 PM

Let's get some discussion going. Doesn't someone want to flame my builds or something?

Wild Card

03-15-2005, 11:34 PM

@DAP

... just some questions and things I like to ask...

The Aggro-build:
I like the Zealots... but 4 Swords? Wouldn`t be the Sword of L+S also be a good choice?

The Control-build:
Kodama is good and can`t be targeted, which is strong in some matchups... But what are you doing against Bribery? Just planning to persecute, plow under and death cloud your opponent so they never reach 5 lands?
What about Molder Slug and Genjus in these matchups?

troubadour

03-16-2005, 12:47 AM

Plow under is your best friend, and don't let anyone tell you different. The card is sensational.

it's awesome; on turn 3 you have 5 mana (after casting BoP and Kodama's reach) you can smile wickedly and make your opponent have no lands in play (assuming you went first).

no lands in play! no lands!

see that's what best friends are really for - making certain opponents suffer massive tempo loss.

NuOnDaNet

03-16-2005, 02:03 AM

here's my latest build (in the midst of testing):

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
2 Molder Slug

4 Kokusho, the Evening Star

3 Genju of the Cedars
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Rampant Growth
4 Plow Under

3 Terror
4 Hideous Laughter
3 Death Cloud

11 Forest
9 Swamp
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Sideboard (work in progress):
4 Naturalize
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Persecute
3 Barter in Blood

explanation on some unconventional choices:

2 Molder Slug - i want to have some sort of removal for artifacts maindeck coz lets face it, there're a lot of good artifacts out there from Mirrodin block that will probably see play now that Affinity's dead

4 Rampant Growth - in the midst of testing this in the Kodama's Reach spot. i like being able to cast turn 3 Persecute against control decks and turn 3 Hideous Laughter against weenies. haven't really tested against LD though

3 Terror - in the midst of testing this over Rend Flesh

2 Sylvan Scrying and 1 Boseiju - expecting blue control to be a big part of the metagame. 2 Sylvan Scrying might be changed to 2 Sensei's Divining Top or 2 Troll Ascetic. that would open up 2 spots in the current (unfinished) sideboard

4 Hideous Laughter - testing this over Echoing Decay. with Rampant Growth/Sakura-Tribe Elder i can cast this turn 3 most times

i'd really like to fit Night's Whisper somewhere, but i'm not too sure what to cut. flames/criticisms/suggestions are welcome.

DAP

03-16-2005, 04:23 AM

@WildCard

The Sword count and type is definately adjustable. If you think you would benefit from L+S then run it as it is also a good card for us. I personally like to draw early and it's not hard to be swinging with the Sword by turn three or four at which point the graveyard might not be much of a resource. The two damage is also huge as it puts your opponent on a short clock and can also help pick off pesky weenies.

Bribery is a problem no doubt about it. Persecute has been my best defense against it and yes Plow Under and DC can help disrupt them.

Molder Slug is right on the edge now. I am going to have to play some more games before I want to make a final judgement on him. Genju is sort of the same way. I see that it can be good with DC but I don't know what I want to take out for them.

soulstice

03-16-2005, 08:32 AM

this decklist seems to be doing pretty well and strangely enough it reminds the original rock a lot more than the modern day deathcloud decks.
the only debatable card is barter in blood. i have tested several choices for removal but barter seems to be the only one getting the job done (with the exception of meloku) and the drawback is neglible more often than not.

2 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Plow Under
4 Barter in Blood
3 Viridian Shaman
4 Eternal Witness
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Night's Whisper
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
7 Swamp
12 Forest

Hajime Saito

03-16-2005, 08:39 AM

Run the plague lord he makes your life good.(sac Jugan and swing mm damage, Sac Koku and you die mmm Damage Sac worthless things and remove your board mm kill and the Sac him to kill quite a few big nasties

Phenix

03-16-2005, 09:30 AM

I'll join the fray and post my decklist :) (pure control).

//Lands
12 forest
9 swamp
1 shizo
1 okina

//Creatures
4 STE
3 kokusho
2 jens
4 witness

//Other spells
3 cloud
4 plow under
4 reach
4 terror
4 barter
3 divining top
2 genju o/t cedars

//Side
4 naturalize
3 nezumi shortfang
3 persecute
2 troll
3 hideous laugther

shzlbmnpstik

03-16-2005, 12:59 PM

You would be correct.

I'm glad that someone else also realizes this. To everyone that just 'assumes' that B/G = The Rock, The Rock is a deck that is based upon card advantage and utility. Why there have been some decent shots at making Rock-like cards, it will never be the same as the real Rock.

Chad

Very right you are, we have no actual card advantege. You couldn't make Rock in t2, because there just arn't enough cheap disruption spells and good beatdown creatures. Birds and Troll stay, Eternal Witness is here still, Karstoderm is good, Kokusho is here (but no RecNightmare), but there isn't Vampiric Tutor and Perniscious Deed, probably the only *uncuttable* cards in The Rock (control version, not MaceyRock, and even in MaceyRock you need them).

Elbereth

03-16-2005, 03:02 PM

Dont run birds, especially in the control version. It is more a loss of tempo than a gain, because in this environment it will most likely be shot down pretty early. sakura and reach are all that are needed, maybe solemn simulacrum. Rampant growth over reach is no good because red is one of our worst match ups and reach grabs more land against their LD. These are all observations made after extensive play of this deck.

shzlbmnpstik

03-16-2005, 03:11 PM

Yayo-dude

03-16-2005, 03:27 PM

later . ZACO01

Elbereth

03-16-2005, 06:02 PM

loss of tempo cause it gets killed early game before it can make an impact and is a waste of mana and four card slots that could be used for better land searchers.

troubadour

03-16-2005, 06:09 PM

BoP is definitely needed for the aggro version. Look at our competition:
WW: a veritbale ton of low cost guys that beat extremly quickly. our bigger threats need to hit the table sooner rather than later
Red: whether land destruction or creature orientated, red comes out firing. with chrome mox at their disposal, we need to match their speed. BoP accomplishes this.
Mono U: first turn bird allows us to get out old mate Troll Ascetic nice and early, perhaps ducking their counterspells. turn 3 persecute is also pretty tasty.
TNN: allows us to get a quick plow under out, enough to maybe slow them down.

If you choose to run equipment, slamming a sword of fire and ice on a BoP turn 3 against either red or blue is pretty sweet.

For control decks the choice is yours really. I prefer not, because a late game draw of BoP can be disappointing. Also, land-thinning is more important in the long game.

In my version, BoP goes well with Plaguelord, so i'm quite happy with his role.

towarmforacoat

03-16-2005, 06:47 PM

Birds is definately needed for any version of the Rock, especially the "aggro" version.

It powers out early threats, and can never be considered a loss of tempo at all. Birds makes the tempo fast, which is why its included in the fist place.

If Birds were to be taken out, which it shouldn't be, what could possibly replace it? Besides Llanowar elves which isn't legal yet, what for one mana speeds up your hand?Even when Birds are played late game, they can be used as fodder for Death Cloud, leaving bigger creatures out to deal more damage.

NuOnDaNet

03-16-2005, 11:43 PM

here's a crazy thought:

for the more aggro builds, howzabout Nature's Will in the SB against blue control? or is that too narrow?

just throwing stuff around.

Wild Card

03-17-2005, 01:08 AM

Birds is definately needed for any version of the Rock, especially the "aggro" version.

But we are the same opponion if we say there only exists an aggro-control and a control version, right?

It powers out early threats, and can never be considered a loss of tempo at all. Birds makes the tempo fast, which is why its included in the fist place.

Hm... this comes back on which acceleration to be used... BoP, STE, Solemn, Reach... STE is always set, the rest is debateable depending on the metagame... Playing cards like Viridian Shaman or Troll Ascetic (which takes us to the aggro-control path) will make BoP important.
If you are not using these cards (and especially if we face B and R matchups) the BoP become much less attractive.

If Birds were to be taken out, which it shouldn't be, what could possibly replace it? Besides Llanowar elves which isn't legal yet, what for one mana speeds up your hand?Even when Birds are played late game, they can be used as fodder for Death Cloud, leaving bigger creatures out to deal more damage.

As I said above... STE and Kodama`s Reach (perhaps some Solemns) are used. If the need arises to maindeck Boseiju we need slots for Sylvan Scrying or Reap and Sow. So depending on the build it is perfectly fine not to play BoP... in others they definately should be maindeck.

fromthelab

03-17-2005, 11:34 AM

all that nice discussion in the old thread gone now... how sad... anyway, here is my build (again)...

http://www.brainburst.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=31313

just needs a little fine tuning, but i think this might be a good direction. i used to run maindeck north-tree but MUC is rampant at my store and some even run maindeck Bribery...

and finally, my thoughts on the comments above... birds = A MUST. solemn = too slow. and to someone else previously, how can you run BG and NOT run TROLL ASCETIC??

lastly... what is Jens?

DAP

03-17-2005, 11:47 AM

@fromthelab

I would think a lot of MUC would BE a reason to run Kodama N. Since you are running maindeck Shortfang as well as Persecute I wouldn't think you would be having so much trouble with Bribery. I agree that BoP are good for this deck but I also can see the argument for Rampant Growth in their stead. As for Troll, I think it is a great card but I'm running Kodama N for the same purposes most run Troll. If I pull Kodama Troll would definately take their place. Solemn is not too slow IMO but I currently am playing with Reach rather than Jens. Like how I killed two birds with one stone there?

fromthelab

03-17-2005, 12:03 PM

- DAP

so... solemn = Jens? (sorry im a lil slow sometimes... how'd they come up with -that- name?)

and i pulled the north trees for the persecutes just because theres a lot of ponza and WW round here to... the card advantage persecute gives is great and north can be chumped/ burned way too easily without the regen that troll has...

DAP

03-17-2005, 12:20 PM

Kodama N can't just be chumped so easily. We have spot removal to deal with multiple blockers and he does Trample. Also, how is someone going to burn an untargetable creature? That would be a new one on me. I guess you think Kodama N is a 6/4 with no abilities.? Anyhow, Troll is definitely a playable card I just choose for the time being to test with Kodama N instead.

Jens is for Jenson, the name of the player who created the card after winning the Invitational. Shadowmage Infiltrator and Meddling Mage are some other examples and also Kai is Voidmage Protege.

EDIT: Correction on the Invitational cards. The cards are created by the players before the tourney and are then edited into legal cards.

fromthelab

03-17-2005, 12:40 PM

my bad about the north tree being burned... i honestly forgot about the untargetability for a sec. my point was that the 4 toughness could be fairly easily taken care of and usually only 2 of that tramples over.

i just tried putting north in to see how the deck would run with a lil more aggro... it was ok in my experience, but didnt make quite the big impact i expected... troll beats, disruption along the way and a kokusho finish is enough for me...

and thanks for the 411 on Jens.

DAP

03-17-2005, 12:57 PM

@fromthelab

My tourney build is far from aggro. My only real beaters are Kodama N and Kokusho. The only other creatures in the deck are Elder and Witness and they rarely but sometimes do some damage. I have had much success clearing the way for Kodama with Decay and Rend Flesh. I find that usually 4 not 2 damage Tramples through and that is a short clock my friend. By the time regionals rolls around things could be very different than they are now. I'm not sure what the optimal Rockesqe decklist is but I do know that the build I am running can beat any deck in the format on Any Given Sunday. My current build also has IMO a favorable matchup against every tier 1 deck after sideboarding. It is defensive yet explosive. I am very pleased at the moment.

No sweat on the 411. Most of the Invitational cards are sweet.

Elbereth

03-17-2005, 02:34 PM

ok, I see running birds in the aggro version, but not in the control version. I played with birds at states, when affinity was still alive, and it was amazing, except against red and blue, which got rid of it quickly and hurt me in the game. Now that blue and red are showing up in more numbers, and these are our two worst match ups, playing birds will only make these matchups worse. I'm not trying to say that those who run birds are wrong, im just trying to help this deck become one of the top decks in the new format, and as long as blue and red are big, birds are bad.

DAP

03-17-2005, 03:00 PM

If I were to run a build without BoP it would look something like this.

1 Boseiju
2 CoB
12 Forest
7 Swamp

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Rampant Growth
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Plow Under

3 Witness
2 Kodama N

2 Night's Whisper
4 Echoing Decay
3 Rend Flesh
4 Death Cloud

2 Kokusho

sideboard
4 Naturalize
1 Plow Under
3 Terror
3 Grim Reminder
4 Persecute

With additional land search I would up the DC count to 4. I also brought the Plow Under to the main to optimize my land advantage.

I have had great results with Grim Reminder so when the spots opened in the side Reminder almost automatically filled them.

troubadour

03-17-2005, 06:22 PM

guys i think DAP is on the money with regards to his build. a havent seen updated decklist for awhile, but based on what's up on the other forum, it looks pretty formidable.

i've been trying out Nezumi shortfang and yeh, that guy is pretty ace. but the decks he'd shine against (red and blue) are also the decks he has the toughest time against. v. annoying, but hey, i should have expected that.

i'm not totally on board with the maindeck persecute yet. against 2 colour decks, i'd really hate to choose the wrong colour, that's all.

bribery is beginning to look more and more potent as our builds progress. i mean, my brother bribed a north tree off me last night, and well, it hurts. btw, DAP, you can kill off north-tree with, for instance, Flamebreak. all they need to do is chump it, then cast. same goes for pyroclasm.

slashpert999

03-17-2005, 07:52 PM

why wouldnt you run the aggro version? with ascetic, kokusho and kodama putting on the stomp and a mass of removal leading up to the bomb cloud, it can finish opponents faster than control. and when you do control, you'll still serve up some beatdown LATER on. so why not serve it up NOW?:D

Wild Card

03-18-2005, 12:13 AM

I think I will play the following list today at FNM... constructive criticism is appreciated.

Lands (23)
10 Forests
10 Swamps
3 (Okina, Shizo, Boseiju)

Creatures (18)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Molder Slug
3 Kokusho

Spells (19)
4 Echoing Decay
3 Rend Flesh
3 Death Cloud

3 Kodama`s Reach
3 Reap and Sow
3 Plow under

The SB consists of
3 Persecute
3 Cranial Extraction
2 Grim Reminder
4 Naturalize
2 Viridian Shaman
1 Kodama of the North Tree (the last random Slot)

I would also like to try the aggro-control approach an the following was my first list spontaneous from my head.

23 Lands

Creatures (22)

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Molder Slug
3 Kokusho

Spells (15)
4 Echoing Decay
4 Rend Flesh/ Terror
4 Coercion/ Distress
3 Plow under

Rend Flesh vs. Terror will depend on the metagame and the amount of T&N played in my area. Coercion vs. Distress has to be tested...

DAP

03-18-2005, 03:28 AM

@Troubadour

They can't chump and pyroclasm because it is a sorcery and I am so not going to pull Kodama because I fear Flamebreak. Besides, Troll fares no better against Flamebreak so what good would it do to take out Kodama?

troubadour

03-18-2005, 05:54 AM

DAP - man, i'm on board with the North tree. i've been a fan since he came out, and he's been in my GB deck since i bought him at my local store. all i'm saying is that you shouldn't think he's invulnerable, because, well, he isn't.

Skeletorvsheman

03-18-2005, 06:10 AM

Phyrexian Plaguelord is a possible addition to any rock deck, he also puts use to your birds late game.

boilerXmen4116

03-18-2005, 08:22 AM

i'm not totally on board with the maindeck persecute yet. against 2 colour decks, i'd really hate to choose the wrong colour, that's all.
just a comment on maindecking persecute. if they do run two colors... think about what point in the game it is, what has been played already, and what threats they could possibly be holding. most multi-color decks run green. U/G, B/G cloud, freshmaker, even some G/W aggro and control builds are surfacing. in any case, the green is their acceleration and card advantage (reach, witness, plow), while the other color is the purpose of the deck. whether it is meloku, death cloud, kokusho, kiki, WOG, otherworldly journey, etc. my strategy has always been this: if you play persecute turn 3 or 4, and they haven't played a witness yet, or better yet, if they haven't played any acceleration, you MUST choose green. slowing their tempo down is so critical, especially when you can get really high in the land advantage to cloud them away. plus when you pick another color early game, they can just witness it back. however, if the game has already progressed, and they've acceled and witnessed already, pick the other primary color. getting rid of their win cards is more important at this time. their green cards could still hurt you, but they might not always be holding on to a STE or a reach. they could be holding to a witness and a rude awakening, but those are the decicions you have to make for yourself. think about what they've played, what they might be holding out for, and at what point the game is.

mydragonlove

03-18-2005, 10:13 AM

dear all,
I'm back from the dead so to speak. College has been wooping my magical butt for a while now so i haven't had much time to playtest/play magic in general for a couple weeks now. Anyway, i'll get straight to the point.

@kodama of north tree users: Let me...naw...no beating around the bush. What are some of you thinking? The card has GGG in the casting cost and your also running BBB in deathcloud. The parallels just can hurt your mana base. I mean, some of you are going to say that its not any problem to get to GGG and BBB in the game but you have to remember what your playing against. Say your playing against a MUC player game 2 after you showed him yoru playgin with both north tree and deathcloud. If he's a smart MUC player he's going to stop your turn 3 kodama's reach when you only have 1 swamp or 1 forest in play. I mean come on, lets face facts as well, 2GGG is pretty slow on the tempo that has been being played lately. I ALWAYS have my direct disruption turn in the 5 mana slot. Its usually your playing threats in the 3-4 mana slots (troll, iwamori, karstoderm) and then playing disruption (cranial extraction, plow under, using nezumi, persecute). You can not afford to basicly tap yourself out and let your oppoennt get a free, undisrupted turn in this metagame. When i was playign against North tree my opponent's would play him and have other creatures out and i would just death cloud them away with the control version, wrath of god them away with g/w, etc...etc...etc...or play sword of fire and ice int he beacon deck and send him in and start winning the ground war. Again, when your playing against strong decks in the field, north tree just does not get it done like troll does because troll comes out faster, regenerates, and does not effectively push your disruption turn back 1-2 turns. Against decks like white weenie you don't want to be tapping out for a 6/4 trampler that has to block a 2/1 with umezawe's jitte on it so it goes to the grave and they still have board advantage. I'll keep troll for his tempo, regenerative abilities, and his fundamental turn aspects.

@kokusho users in an aggro build: Well this is really dependent. Kokusho is not an aggro critter. Same with kodama, he is WAY passed the ideal creature play turns. Not to mention that kokusho usually can't go "aggro" he has to throw himself up against karstoderm/iwamori to keep yourself from dying. The life gain is marginal and usually against the aggro build your not doing well with cards in hand due to cranial extraction, nezumi, and getting set back via plow under + nezumi getting more cards. If i were to play kokusho it would strictly be in control.

@wild card: Grats on the lil dude coming into this world. Its Slim_Shady btw. Also, why molder slug? Honestly, he's strictly terrible in comparison to karstoderm/iwamori.

As for my build, i'm not spitting out my aggro build quite yet but if i were to play a control version i'd look at...i think it was roachman's build with a few tweaks. Here's what i changed it to. I think i only made 1 change so roachman was right on:

// Lands
10 [8E] Swamp (3)
10 [OD] Forest (2)
2 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 [CHK] Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 [CHK] Shizo, Death's Storehouse

// Creatures
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 [CHK] Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 [MR] Troll Ascetic

// Spells
4 [CHK] Kodama's Reach
4 [A] Terror
4 [DS] Echoing Decay
3 [DS] Death Cloud
3 [8E] Plow Under
4 [BOK] Genju of the Cedars

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [8E] Spreading Algae
SB: 4 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 3 [8E] Persecute
SB: 4 [CHK] Cranial Extraction

I'll make things easy to understand, the green genju is AMAZING at holding the ground vs. a lot of decks and in conjunction with sakura, witness, and troll they all can basicly hold the fort for early turns to deathcloud to victory. Also, genju is another great card in effectiveness with cloud and plow under netting you extra dmg with troll as well. You can not play this deck strictly as control, you have to be aggressive not passive with this deck. This is by far no where near as strong as the aggro version of this deck, but it has better match-ups against many other decks that just bow down to the power of death cloud and genju. Sideboard is by far not made. That was just for the online metagame that is magic-league...randomness as some of you know.

Sorry if i sound like some kind of angry kid in this post and by no means am i trying to flame anyone directly. I'll keep it more general if i can but sometimes people just make wacky suggestions and throw off the meaningful advice/talk for this deck. Best of luck fellas and if i'm wrong, tell me why and prove it with playtest results. Don't just say "your wrong" and not prove it. I playtested mr.north tree himself and he is not the psychatog some of us have made him out to be.

~Shane aka Slim_Shady

Wild Card

03-18-2005, 11:07 AM

@wild card: Grats on the lil dude coming into this world. Its Slim_Shady btw.

Obviously I just don`t understand that because english isn`t my first language... I guess you`re just mistaking me for somone else...

Also, why molder slug? Honestly, he's strictly terrible in comparison to karstoderm/iwamori.

Well... on one hand because I wanted to play this today and Raffinity/ KCI are still legal. On the other hand I strongly believe that artefacts will be played after the bannings. The third point is that MUC with Vendalken Shackles is quite strong in my metagame...

Oh... wait... you are refering to my aggro-control-approach? Well... On one hand I strongly believe that artefacts will be played after the bannings. On the other hand there is MUC with Vendalken Shackles (quite strong in my metagame)...

With my "Control-Approach" I went 2-2 today...
2:0 vs. W/R-Samurais
0:2 vs. Raffinity
2:0 vs. B/G-Control
0:2 vs. B/G-Control

DAP

03-18-2005, 02:05 PM

@mydragonlove

GGG and BBB do seem to spell trouble but this deck is custom fit to get it with little problem. I look at it this way. I want to draw Forests and search Swamps. I am going to have 5-7 lands in play by turn 4 unless someone is heavily disrupting me via discard, ld or counter. How is it going to be difficult for me to determine what lands I search or what color I tap BoP for? I am never going to have 6 Swamp no Forest I can tell you that. You say you have tested with Kodama N and I have no reason not to believe you but I contend that your build or your play style probably had a lot to do with your results. It also seems that these Kodama N sucks posts always ignore the fact that I'm packing plenty of spot removal to deal with all of these attackers and blockers that are supposedly killing my Kodama. I can assure you that I rarely have to worry about dieing in combat. As for tempo loss I don't see it. I drop Kodama and they untap and look at a creature they often can do little about. I can totally see where you are coming from with your praise of Troll but I think you need to look closely at my build and see that in it Kodama N is far better than Troll.
The only problem I might have with your post is if you were insinuating that I am posting bunk tech and results. I have been playing G/B since Monger was legal and have had several prize finishes with the deck including 43rd out of 615 last regionals. I take pride in not only my performance but that of the archetype and would never try to sell somebody a load. If you weren't trying to make that allusion then no sweat. If you were then, whatever. I hope we play one another sometime.

Elbereth

03-19-2005, 07:37 AM

K, it finally seems like we are getting somewhere with this deck. I really like Wild Card's control version and mydragonlove's list. Here's the list I'm playing(Its on the old forum, but I'll just post it again)

4- sakura
4- witness
4- troll
3- kokusho

2- top/sylvan scrying

4- echoing decay
3- terror
4- kodama's reach
3- plow under
3- persecute
3- death cloud

land:
11- forest
9- swamp
1- okina
1- shizo
1- boseiju

board:
4- naturalize
3- hideous laughter/rend flesh/barter(not really sure yet, depends on meta)
1- terror
1- plow under
1- persecute
3- genju of the cedars
2- sylvan scrying(if I dont put them main, if i put them main, then this will be rude awakening)

I will continue to voice my concern against red decks, because i think this is our worst matchup, as they can severely cripple us with LD and Zo-zu. My game plan against red will just be to bring in a ton of spot removal and hope that will work, but was wondering if anyone else had some insights into the red matchup. And as concerns kodama of the north tree, not realy sure what to think of him right now, my try testing him out, but I think he and molder slug can both be pretty good, but that there are better cards we can put in the deck right now.

Valarouko

03-19-2005, 02:14 PM

A couple questions. . . I've been testing a control version of the deck and I don't really see what the big deal is with red and MUC. When I played red I completely walked it. . . the version was running 12 LD spells and it wasn't enough. I'm using 4 reach 4 STE and 4 jens. I'm yet to encounter any land problems at all against red. As for MUC. . . I'll test again to see if I'm crazy but I seem to remember that being an intersesting match that I would usually end up winning.

Finally, what are you thoughts on rude awakening in the deck? . . . they can't take it with bribery and it's obviously a good card so why not 2-3?

Elbereth

03-19-2005, 02:23 PM

Vala, could you post your decklist? And how much do the Jens help against red, cause I used to have a couple, but never really found them too useful. Usually the problem against red is when they LD turn three and then again in the next couple of turns and I can't seem to find another land or land searcher. maybe i just get unlucky sometimes, lol.

troubadour

03-19-2005, 05:51 PM

i'm having difficulty filling the last few slots of my deck - unfortunately, these are pretty important slots.

4 BoP
4 STE
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Eternal Witness
4 Solemn Simulacrum - ???
3 Phyrexian Plaguelord - ???
3 Kokusho, the Evening Star

4 Terror
4 Echoing Decay
2 Rude Awakening - ???
(35 in all - so three spots still open)

22 Lands

I'm trying to go for a more aggro control build. i mean, i want to have troll ascetic in play on turn 3 every time (ideally) but i also appreciate the control options that this deck has. Barter in Blood is a card i'd definitely like to see more of. The (notable) absence of Deathcloud is something i'm still not sure about either.

My sideboard at the moment is pretty loose as well.

1 Boseiju
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Persecute
4 Naturalise
4 Plow Under

How do you guys feel about Genju of the Cedars? in limited, i know he's awesome, but on the turns you are activating his ability, you really aren't developing your board position...

argh! this is nuts. we have far too many options!

Please help me.

Buthrakaur

03-19-2005, 06:51 PM

I know it has been a while since I posted, but to be honest, World of Warcraft has taken more of my attentiion when on the computer. I have still been playing B/G and testing, and have come to the conslusion that with Ravager gone, a more disruptive agro route is stronger, at least untill the meta really settles. I played this last night at FNM, even though Ravager was still legal, and Affinity was my only match loss, both during the tournament and after. This is a very strong, and very Unrefined list.

4 Bird of Paradise
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Chittering Rats
4 Eternal Witness
3 Okiba Gang Shinobi
3 Phyrexian Plaguelords

4 Echoing Decay
4 Plow Under
3 Deathcloud

23 Land

The sideboard is not solid, but right now.

4 Persicute
4 Naturalize
3 Nekrataal
4 Befoul

Valarouko

03-19-2005, 09:37 PM

I'll post it soon. I think either you are getting unlucky or I am getting lucky. . . maybe a bit of both this deck does seem to like giving me the right cards. The Jens. . . well they actually seemed to be very usefull against red. Actually they've been pretty usefull against everything I've played them against. I've never drawn them and been wishing I hadn't so for now they are staying.

Wild Card

03-20-2005, 02:12 AM

@ Buthrakaur

Interesting list... Against which decks did you play besides Raffinity?

How are the Matchups against MUC (Shackles) and T&N? Is the "Rat-Disruption" enough?

@ troubadur

What about Plow under? Or discard like Persecute (Distress/ Coercion)?

I would start with Plow under...

urzafrank

03-20-2005, 02:13 AM

IHMO one of the biggest issues with this deck is it is a metagame deck meaning that bulids change a lot based on what you expect to face. so all the builids and decklists are going to be different until we know what the metagame is and they will still be different based off of where you play. so for an effective disscussion we need to focus on what cards are good in what matchup.

Elbereth

03-20-2005, 07:24 AM

oo man, Buth's back. I here ya about WoW Buth, was playing that for a while, then when I heard about the bannings came back to magic. Still like to try and play both, but hard to put a lot of time into both. Glad to have you back though.

Buthrakaur

03-20-2005, 04:59 PM

Between the tournament and playtest games afterwards, here is what I played.

Affinity = 2 match losses, 1 match win
MUC = 3 match wins
Ponza = 1 match win
Big Red = 3 match wins
Pristine Green = 4 match wins
MBA = 1 match win
Tooth = 2 match win
WW = 1 match win

As far as Shackles, they are slow. The rat disruption combined with Witness/Plow puts so much pressure on any control decks that I can run for the win with the little guys. Against agro, it is enough disruption to set up the mid game (affinity being the exception due to complete hand droppage, but is irrelavent now).

Jhemel

03-20-2005, 05:40 PM

@ Buthrakaur:

Your aggro list is good. And it's better than what I've come up with. My aggro B/G was quite inconsistent, and it just sucks to not have the cards you want when you need them. Although I don't think Death Cloud needs to be in any aggro version.

Buthrakaur

03-20-2005, 08:58 PM

Deathcloud is just so strong. Remember, it is still an agro-control deck. My version still has to play the control game against decks in the field like WW and Stupid Red. Of course, your primary game plan is not to build up to a game winning Deathcloud, but everytime I cast it, it wins games, manny of which I would loose without it. Not running Deathcloud in a B/G deck in standard is just a bad call, no matter what the twist on B/G you are trying.

mydragonlove

03-21-2005, 01:38 PM

Hooray for World of Warcrack players!!! (actually, WoW is pretty good at shortening that up). Anyways, i just wanted to post that if any of you guys play on frostwolf server, come and play with me and the guild i play in; sad pandas. We killed magmadar in Molten Core!!! ::dances::.

The names i play under right now are:

lvl 15 shaman: Maryeto
lvl 18 mage: Cambridge
lvl 60 priest: Witness

I'm on semi-frequently due to the fact that i interchange the whole MTG and WoW thing.

~Shane

Morgasm

03-21-2005, 02:40 PM

I'm using this control build right now, and although it may seem inconsistant at first glance, it really fits in a varied metagame like the one I play in (ponza, MUC, MBC, UG and UW control, WW), and hits is goals very well:

11 Forest
1 Okina
9 Swamp
1 Shizo
1 Boseiju

4 STE
4 Witness
3 Kokusho

4 K Reach
3 Sylvan Scry

3 Echo Decay
3 Hideous Laughter
2 Barter in Blood
3 terror
3 deathcloud

2 Diabolic Tutor
2 Sensei Top

1 Naturalize
1 Rude Awakening

SB:
4 Shortfang
2 Beacon of Unrest
2 Persecute
3 Cranial
3 Naturalize
1 Rude Awakening

Also, I'm thinking of trying a semi-aggro version, ala old Rock with plaguelord, and HIS MILLIONS will be made by Beacon of creation. The deck willl go something like this:

13 Forest
9 Swamp

4 BoP
4 STE

4 Witness
4 Plaguelord
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Ravenous Rats

4 Beacon of Creation
3 terror
3 plow under
2 Genju of the Cedars
4 echo decay

SB:
4 naturalize
4 choke
2 erradicate
2 Barter in blood
1 Genju of the Cedars
1 Troll ascetic
1 ravenous rats

Note that I haven't tested this last decklist, so it is all preliminary

Feedback is always welcome

AlaskanMagic

03-21-2005, 03:20 PM

Buthrakaur:

You're logic is flawed, here's why:

We all know what the text of Death Cloud reads, but do we understand what impact Cloud has on the game? Considering nothing else but the card itself, Death Cloud hurts both players equally. Death Cloud can be compaired to other cards with global effects like Pyroclasm, which does 2 damage to all creatures. Does a weenie deck run Pyroclasm? No...because instead of gaining an advantage, in almost every circumstance Pyroclasm is taking down your weenies which you used your turns and mana to put onto the board in order to threaten your opponents life total. Pyroclasm in not only helping you to not win the game, but it is helping you to lose it.

The same logic can be applied to Death Cloud. If you are not using it to gain advantage, why is it in the deck? Because both players suffer equally (again, just looking at the card), all you are doing is losing tempo not to mention your own card advantage that could have been gained by playing a more beneficial spell.

So far so good, but there is one problem. Pyroclasm and Death Cloud now seem like bad cards which we know just isn't true. This is because in order to have a consistently strong constructed deck, it must optimize its card interaction with each assumed state of the game. In english, this means that if you have a Death Cloud or Pyroclasm in hand, most of the time you should be prepared to play it in order to turn the game in your favor....after all, this is what each card in your deck is for right? So Pyroclasm, to be "effective" like the above explains, a deck that runs 4 should not run many weenies, unless of course killing your own creatures falls within your plan to win the game.

Death Cloud works the same. The best possible scenario with Death Cloud is that you kill your oppenent with it without killing yourself. The next best is that you lower their life total so that you may then kill them with creatures or another spell on that turn or within the near future. The next best is that in crippling both players of cards in hand, life total, creatures, and lands, you come out of the resolution with an advantage within one of those categories that will help you to win the game quicker than your oppenent. If everyone ends up equally losing, you better make sure that you will drawing cards of more quality in winning the game from the top of your deck than your opponent. Against aggressive decks, this just doesn't work.

It should be noted Death Cloud can be used defensively, but it is better used as a spell that can be followed with aggression. Use cards to accelerate your land count quicker than your oppenent so that after you Death Cloud you have more "money" to invest in higher "quality" spells than your opponent. Don't use too many creatures that die to DC. Birds of Paradise lets you DC sooner, but you end up loosing your initial investment. Solemn Simulacrum is an example of a card that both accelerates you land count and replaces itself after you DC it away. Can a Bird do that? No.

You also want to make sure you can win the game faster than your opponent after the DC. Oversold Cemetery from Onslaught let DC run and be effective in an Aggressive B/G deck where killing your own creatures fit perfectly into winning with them from your graveyard after you controlled your opponent with Cloud. In Standard, their isn't anything close to Oversold Cemetery but there is Genju of the Cedars which can attack the turn after (or perhaps even on the turn) you DC.

Conclusion: Death Cloud is not good in any Aggro B/G I've seen in this forum. Some might play it and get lucky situations where casting it is effective, but like in Poker, a player wants to minimize the amount of luck involved with the tools of consistency and mathematics. I've seen and posted Control versions which I think are good at taking advantage of Death Cloud, but I still struggle with the best way to rebound from DC whether its Genju of the Cedars, Night's Whisper, or Sensei's Divining Top.

I love G/B, it's my favorite combination and I always play it, but I can't decide yet on whether G/B Aggro (no DC) or G/B control (with DC) is going to fare better in the metagame. Initially, I thought any build that ran Troll Ascetic maindeck would be good, and so because Troll Ascetic doesn't have synergy with DC, I built an Aggro deck with acceleration, beats, and disruption in the form of Plow Under, Persecute, and Nezumi Shortfang. Now however, I am not too sure about this approach and might resume testing with the Control Build. On another note, I think that we still need maindeck artifact hate. Not Oxidize, but something like Naturalize or Creeping Mold. I found Nezumi Shortfang to be extremely effective in the mid-late game, but not that good early on. Its too mana intensive. Anyway, this post is way too long as it is and if someone is still reading I'm sure they are bored by now. Cheers!

Buthrakaur

03-21-2005, 03:32 PM

Alaskanmagic: You are wrong about how I view Deathcloud, now keep the assumptions to your self.

I gain advantage everytime I cast Deathcloud. Why? Because my deck has lots of built in card advantage. My deck has lots of negative tempo for my opponent. I don't know how many times I Plow Under on turn 4, just to Deathcloud for 3 on turn 5. Assuming just one disruptive rat, and they are in a very weak position with fewer land and cards in hand than I. Deathcloud may have a symetrical effect on both players based on it's text, but since the caster controls the timing and value of X, it never has a symetrical effect in a real game environment. You don't have to outland your opponent to effectively use Deathcloud, that is just the obvious way to do it.

Elbereth

03-21-2005, 03:35 PM

@AlaskanMagic:

I am currently playing a control build that runs troll and death cloud together, and it can work if you use them right. Most of the games I win because of troll more than Kokusho because I can DC and then drop the troll. This strategy works well with cards like top and Jens, as they allow you to search for the troll while you and your opponent try to recover. If you get the troll early enough after DC, which seems to happen to me a lot, probably just lucky most times, you put your opponent on a pretty short clock. I've always run troll and DC together, and it works wonders if you play it right. Genju also works well for this function, but troll also shines against aggro decks before you DC.

fromthelab

03-21-2005, 04:00 PM

i agree with Jhemel... Death Cloud doesn't need to be in an aggro version. it should definitely be in the SB, imo for matchups such as WW and such, but maindeck it seems too slow for aggro and doesn't have as much synergy with the build as much as extra removal spells and/ or plow under...

and commenting along with Urzafrank, i agree that this deck is very much meta-game based. as far as current builds (not including regionals builds) your deck very much depends on what you're going to face in your local metagame. i personally face a field of half MUC decks and very little aggro, which means my build will reflect that..

i think that this thread overall would benefit more from a "this card helps a lot against this matchup" rather than a "i think you're dumb cuz of your opinion about ____" type of discussion... everyone has different playing styles and different styles of BG control work for different people in different meta's... but it would help, preparing for regionals, to see what cards work very well against different matchups and starting from there so we can try to put and overall SOLID MAIN deck together with a GREAT sideboard (which BG depends heavily upon...)

Jhemel

03-21-2005, 05:42 PM

AlaskanMagic

03-21-2005, 06:04 PM

Buthrakaur: First of all, I appreciate your response. Secondly, I didn't assume anything about your views, I just didn't like YOUR assumption that Death Cloud should be run in every B/G standard deck and wanted to give a counter-argument.

Maybe its just my style of play but I don't like to rely on top decking. If you don't top deck your rat, they are drawing lands that you could have clouded away and instead of not being able to lay lands down, they have two sitting nicely on the top of their deck and a grin on their face. By the time you get your threat on the board, they have two! Look, I'm not saying your build is bad, I'm just trying to explain through logic why Death Cloud is a card that demands a lot of support behind it for it to be the most effective. I like your rat build and will experiment with it to make sure I'm not missing something.

Elbereth: Thanks for the response. Troll is awesome and I think it's going to be one of the environment's greatest creatures, especially with the rise in MUC that we are seeing. I'm going to try running Troll and Cloud together and see how it works. I really like Barter in Blood in the control version and Troll Doesn't like Barter. What do you run for removal?

Jhemel: I like your guts going all out Aggro. Green and Black have some awesome creatures that can lay on the beats. Where are the Troll Ascetics? I'll guess that you didn't include them because of their double green CC that would compete with Arena, but I think they are just a little better than Arena right now. Arena without life gain is a bit risky too. I might take out the Yukora's for Kokusho's.

DAP

03-21-2005, 06:27 PM

I think it really depends on how one builds their deck as to whether or not DC is appropriate. It can easily fit into an aggrodeck so long as the cards contained there in are focused on giving you an advantage after said Cloud. An aggro build with BoP, Sakura-Tribe Elder and Solemn Simulacrum can have a distinct mana advantage early but throw a Sword o' F+I or L+S or a Jitte on any of these guys and you have an excellent beater on your hands. Same goes with any of the rats we have seen popping up in these aggro builds. They enable you to wreck your opponents hand with a smaller DC, while keeping cards in hand and land on the table.

Good cards in most matchups:
BoP
Death Cloud
Eternal Witness
Night's Whisper
Kokusho
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Solemn Simulacrum
Kodama's Reach

Other Good Cards

WW
Hideous Laughter
Rend Stuff
Echoing Decay
Terror
Naturalize (against equipment builds)
Death Cloud(before it's too late)
Sword L+S

ToothnNail
Persecute
Cranial Extraction(it's good but I don't run it)
Plow Under
Death Cloud
Rend Flesh(Instant speed artifact creature removal)
Barter in Blood(great after you Extract their Titans)
Nezumi Shortfang
Either Sword or Jitte

Ponza
Crucible of Worlds
Rampant Growth(If you see a lot of red these replace BoP well)
Terror
Troll Asetic
Sword F+I

MUC
Molder Slug
Naturalize
Troll Asetic
Kodama North Tree
Boseiju
Sylvan Scrying
Dosan
Aether Vial(it's actually quite good for our 2 and 3 drops)
Persecute
Echoing Decay(token slayer)
Death Cloud(if you can get it off)
Nezumi Shortfang
Ravenous Rats
Chittering Rats
Sword F+I

Mirror Match
Grim Reminder
Having more land search and Death Cloud
Cranial Extraction
Persecute
Plow Under
Sword L+S

Sligh
Echoing Decay
Terror
Rend Flesh
Death Cloud
Persecute(fairly early)
Kokusho
Kodama N
Troll Ascetic

MBC
Solemn Simulacrum
Death Cloud(via acceleration)
Cranial Extraction
Persecute
Troll
Kodama N
Natralize
Sword L+S

MonoG
Echoing Decay
Death Cloud
Terror
Rend Flesh
Persecute
Cranial Extraction
Grim Reminder(depending on the two builds)

Other cards to consider
Chrome Mox
Rude Awakening(maybe as a side option in lieu of Death Cloud)
Horobi's Whisper
Sickening Shoel
G Genju
Meloku(with a splash of U)
Damping Matrix
Viridian Zealot
Viridian Shaman
Yukora
Iwamori
And a $hit ton more when you get down to it.

Elbereth

03-21-2005, 06:38 PM

@AlaskanMagic:

I have a build posted earlier on this page using 4-echoing decay and 3-terror as removal, and I agree that barter can be good, but I also question whether or not it will be good with troll. Right now I like playing the troll with instant removal, and right now echoing decay is the best form of removal I have used. The problem I am having right now is deciding the right numbers of things to use in the maindeck. right now I have 8 mana accel (reach and sakura), 7 spot removal, and 9 larger removal cards (3 plow, 3 persecute, 3 DC). I kinda want to up the mana accel to 10 or 11 via birds or jens, but that would mean bumping either terror or persecute to the board, both of which I really like main. Any thoughts on the number of cards for each type of category(spot removal, mana accel, mass disruption) we should be running in the control version?

DAP

03-21-2005, 06:45 PM

@Elbereth

I hope you don't mind if I respond to you. I think if you are going to up the Land Acceleration count you cound consider dropping some spot removal and running 4 Death Cloud. It lacks a bit of precision but if you are Clouding for 2 more than the number of creatures they have in play anyway then who cares? Although personally I would probably move Persecute to the sideboard in your particular case.

AlaskanMagic

03-21-2005, 07:19 PM

Excellent stuff everyone!

DAP: your card suggestions are great, its always good to list things out like you did. AEther Vial could work great in a deck with Sakura, Ravenous + Chittering Rats, Troll, and Witness. It would wreck countermagic, but could we successfully integrate the Cloud/Plow Under control element to stop Tooth and Nail? Is C. Extraction enough? Tooth will be big....

Elbereth: I've been playing around on paper a lot during class and it seems the control builds that I come up with have 10-12 mana accelerators, 10-13 removal (including cloud), and 10-13 ways to disrupt opponent (including cloud). It seems pretty balanced when I play with the cards but I'm not sure if there is standard ratio we should aim for. I agree with DAP in that I like to keep Persecute in the board for some reason, maybe the surprise factor, maybe I try to go all out Cloud game one. Pero Quien Sabes...?

loneranger88

03-21-2005, 09:31 PM

Ive been playing this deck for quite a while now and it is quite simple to build and play. And since I have no life, I have tested this deck so much that I am almost tired of it. The only reason Im not completely tired of it is because it wins me games.

Through all of this I have seen potentially great cards just flop in this deck. Birds of Paradise is a great card, but not for this deck. Since he dies to your own cards, it is really just a waste of a slot. Next is Troll Ascetic. He is another example of a great card that just goes bad for this deck. Once again he just dies to your own cards, and to boot he wont be regenerating. Often there is a much better play with your open mana. Third is the Genju of the Cedars. He looked like a great card to have on the field after Death Cloud resolved. Unfortunately, it seems to always slow down your synergy and cause you to worry to much about it. And Finally is Cranial Extraction. This card is probably the most overrated card I have ever seen in my life. Even I thought it was going to be great for this deck. But when you can extract someone 3 times and still not win the game, something is just wrong.

The next thing I believe in is consistency without using cards that say "Hey, look at me, I'm gonna make sure I draw that card I need." Cards like this include Sensei's Divining Top and Diabolic Tutor. Instead, Indirect cards are quite possibly much better, for this format at least. Cards like these include Kodama's Reach. How? Not only will it speed you up by one land and ensure your next land drop, it increases your chances of drawing a more important card than just another land. The other, most obvious way is to just have 4 of the copy in your deck.

So here is my decklist:

9 Forest
9 Swamp
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfather's
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4 Wayfarer's Bauble
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Death Cloud
4 Plow Under
4 Chittering Rats
4 Eternal Witness
4 Barter in Blood
4 Echoing Decay
4 Kokusho, the Evening Star

Why the low land count? With so much land grab it never matters. In fact it is just much better to search and put into play than it is to have to draw it. Once its out of the way you can for sure draw your more important spells. Kokusho is just great to have a 4 of. This way you might have a better chance of drawing it, or even 2! Having two in my hand almost ensures a victory for me because i almost become the benefactor of a 25 point life swing! Sorry, but since poor old Raffinity is leaving I have to build a new SB, explaining why one isnt in this post.
This deck though, is running great in a field where at least 1/5 of the players are playing Blue. I'll be happy to see any comments or questions, positive or negative.

Hajime Saito

03-21-2005, 11:52 PM

I am currently Working on a few decks Sceptor control MUC and B/G Control which is now the rock in any format jsut so long as the deck is green and black its now the rock(somehow) Anyways That said I Like control I dont just like it I love it I feel nekkid without it. So I run control. Deck list explinations blah blah

4x Sakura Tribe Speed Bump(Elder)
4x Eternal Witness
3x Kokusho the Evening Star
3x Troll of the no touchy touchy

4x Kodamas Reach
4x Plow under
3x Terror
4x Barter in Blood
4x Distress
2x Persecute
3x Death Cloud

3 Tendo Ice bridge
10 Forest
4 City of brass
5 Swamp

Some of these card are obvious choices as Elder Witness Reach Kokusho and Troll should need very little explaining.

Plow Under: For the sake of argument who doesn't wanna plow people? Id plow all day long. Its simply great in a format Dominated by control. Massive tempo.

Distress: I like targeted hand removal! Its like Coercion only one less overall mana. The BB cost peple say is a problem but I really don't plan on playing it untill After plow or possibly right before which means Elder should have happened and Reach might have happend. After I plow under I would then like to take this chance to rid them of their answers they cannot afford right now. Its been a Solid plan thus far as its caugh all sorts of nasty things. Im a Big fan!

Persecute: I want to run more of these but havent the space Agaisnt Ponza MUC other mono decks its game loss if this resolves. the tempo loss is simply too much unless you hit a hand full of arifacts.

Terror: Instant 2 mana hits most things in the format. it does not hit Kokusho and Titan. Thats about it.

Barter: Laughter Just doesnt cut it against alot of non WW decks Barter is simply better IMO but This leaves WW in a good position Laughter should be in the board. But Between SKSB Witness chump terror and barter Even WW should slow down enough to give us the win.

And I run alot mroe forests then swamps. ID preffer to draw green rather then black as I can search out black with the green and alot more of the early spells(the Accel) is green bassed and Troll and Witness each have double trees.

Wild Card

03-22-2005, 12:29 AM

I will go testing today... This time finally with the aggro-control-versions... The one from Buthrakaur and the one I posted a few days ago...

I will report later... (hope they don`t draft instead)

fromthelab

03-22-2005, 08:53 AM

hey Jhemel: if you need help with that build, get at me ;). AIM: fromthelab79. i see a few things you could prolly change, but id rather talk about it and see how certain things work for you...

here's the build i ran last Saturday
http://www.brainburst.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=31313

woulda taken first if it wasnt for that damn Raffinity... im glad its gone though. at least in Ext we have Pernicious to take care of it. i really like BoP cuz nothing else can get you to a turn 2 Troll and theres nothing like the look on the opponents face when they see that. i really want to test Persecute main, but i really dont know what to squeeze out? the Sword makes the deck really aggro and handles Aggro decks like WW and Ponza and helps slow down MonoU as well. i used to run L/S, but F/I has so much more synergy for an aggro build... if anyone has any comments or suggestions, just holler...

Galvatron

03-22-2005, 08:59 AM

what ar its weaknesses if any? WHat cardz dose it fear the most?

HazaredTheOmega

03-22-2005, 09:46 AM

Well, if anyone cares again, here's what I've been trying so desperately to make good:

Lands
11 Forest
10 Swamp
1 Okina
1 Shizo

Creatures
4 BoP
4 Sakura
4 Wetness
4 Karstoderm
3 Iwamori
3 Naturalize
3 Yukora

Spells
3 Echoing Decay
3 Rand Flesh
3 Coercion
3 Phyrexian Arena

Sideboard
1 Echoing Decay
1 Rend Flesh
1 Naturalize
1 Coercion
4 Terror
3 Persecute
4 Plow Under

All I have to say is that it may look good at first glance, but when I play with it sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I find Coercion a great spell, especially if you want to set up for Iwamori. Yukora is good, and in this kind of deck with only a few creatures, a turn 3 Yukora can still swing twice before it gets dealt with, then I proceed to play more threats.

Maybe it lacks synergy or something, or maybe I'm just not used to playing it just yet.

Now I know your a very good magic player jhemel so Im not gonna say any crap about your card choices because more or less you dont have them yet ;).

In case you really need help though heres a few things to change.

Naturalize main deck? Your aggro and in some cases naturaliza will be a dead card. Viridian Zealot pretty much fills the gap no matter how ugly he looks like. If I remember you still dont ahve extractions, pretty much every black deck today needs it like you didnt know :P. Try terror instead of rend flesh too. Rude Awakening can also fit as a prime finisher in the deck.

Some stuff you would like to experiment with,

The 3 drop black creature, forgot the name the one that cant be blocked unless they sacrifice a creature. It will certainly kill a craeture or two before it dies unless its burned or something.

Dosan the Falling Leaf- This will make you cut your instants but it pretty much protects your creatures and make them stay in game longer, perfect with combination with the 3 drop i mentioned above. They have to more or less sac to prevent it dealing damage.

Another Thing Kokusho- maybe youve thought of this but still dont have a copy of it. With your mana base its pretty easy to cast this guy.

BG SB pretty much looks like this in my area maybe a little tweaking?

2 Cranial Extraction
3 Persecute
3 Choke
3 Scrabbling Claws
2 Oblivion Stone
2 Boseiju who Shelters All

Also lots more cards to think about, Troll Ascetic, Nezumi Graverobber and Shortfang. There are lots of good cards. Also jitte can fit in the deck. Your gifted enough to build a powerful B/G deck so im just gonna give you the card options.

Im not a B/G player but Ive fought so many of these decks that I may just may havve sufficient knowledge about it. For any question ill gladly answer them.

Wild Card

03-22-2005, 11:44 AM

Well.... there was a draft but nevertheless I managed to play against three other people with a Honden.dec, B/G-Control and a Big Red.

Both decks (Buthrakaurs and mine) were fun to play and equally strong against Honden.dec.
Against Big Red mine was superior... Against B/G-Control it was draw-dependend... I will go on testing my version and hopefully play against MUC and T&N.

MagicSer

03-22-2005, 04:31 PM

BravoLeader

03-22-2005, 04:43 PM

i dont think people like birds because it isnt permanent mana. it easily is destroyed and when it is ur mana accel is gone. but i personally like it. i use 4 in my build and am perfectly content with it

Jhemel

03-22-2005, 04:52 PM

@ Hazared:

Like I said before in the old B/G thread, I wasn't planning on playing with the obvious cards, and I was testing something new. Your points are valid and taken into account. Naturalize is there to stop me from Arena death.

With that said, I'm finally going to give up on my rogue list. Maybe I'll try out the other's aggro versions and see how it plays out. For now, I would definitely find more Kokushos and Troll Ascetics.

Elbereth

03-22-2005, 04:53 PM

@DAP and AlaskanMagic:

thanks for the help guys, just got a question, if I take out the persecute's from the main board, do I need something else for disruption or do you think plow and DC will suffice? and Alaskan are those numbers you posted with sideboard included, or do they just pertain to the maindeck?

Thanks, for keeping us posted WildCard, I'll post on saturday the results from this week's FNM and what deck i finally decide to play, cause still playing around with the numbers.

About birds, do you guys play him in a more aggro deck or in aggro and control alike? cause I used to play him in a more control version when affinity was around, but I'm too afraid to use him with red and blue getting more popular, and I hate having less than three mana after a DC. Plus the land finders thin the deck more allowing us to draw into our threats better, and they work amazing with top, which I love running. Nonetheless, they are birds, and even though I feel hesistant about using them, I will probably try them eventually just because they have been good in the past. Only testing will tell.

Rook

03-22-2005, 07:16 PM

I just wanted to post my build so that i can get some advice so here it is...

4 sakura
4 witness
2 kokusho
2 solemn
4 troll
4 vine trellis
4 hana kami

4 up root
4 kodams reach
4 rend flesh
4 death cloud

9 forest
9 swamp
1 okina
1 shzo

sb.
3 persecute
3 naturilize
3 grim reminder
2 nezumi short fang
2 boseiju
2 barter

1st i would like ti say that the reason for Hana is for ..

4 up root
4 kodams reach
4 rend flesh

if u have not noticed they are all arcane so that can be used multple times VIA hana and witness sio they can be reused even after deatcloud and the witness can focus on geting creatures back while hana focus on spells.

also have not really seen much of new set so if u would could u please tell me if i could use any more cards from set thanks.

*Keep in mind that i am on a budget so can u all give me the best common and uncommon for this deck if it does not work?
**i have all the cards listed above

boilerXmen4116

03-22-2005, 07:27 PM

Why is it that less than 50% of the decks run BoP? They fit the mana curve brilliantly with all of the 3cc drops like troll, Kodama's, witness, arena, etc.

I use four of the birds in my deck and they work very well when I get the first turn drop with them.
the main reason why people run birds are for one/both of the following reasons: fixing a weak mana base and acceleration. With most of our BG builds, our mana base IS weak. we require either double green, or double/triple black in most of our cards. At a first glance, birds is a perfect fit right? but when you are running somewhere between 7-12 other mana fixers like STE, rampant growth, reach, and jens; you dont need the other help. This is why most people who are running elder and reach do not additionally run the birds because they dont thin your deck, and are dead draws later in the game (aside from rebuilding after a death cloud, but more on that later).

a second reason to run birds is for pure acceleration. now what would you need that extra speed to accelerate to? my theory has always been if your 3-drops exceed your 4-drops, run birds... otherwise run rampant growth. There is no way to play your 4-drops on turn 2 aside from a mox, so why not run something that helps get your 4-drops out on turn 3? i have found that in my aggro build, where my 4drops like iwamori, karstoderm, eradicate, etc outnumber my 'playable' 3drop of troll ascetic (I do not count witness as a 3drop because you will never want to play it as fast as you can). for these reasons, i do not run the traditional birds in my aggro build, and opt for 4 elders and 4 rampant growths. in my old RG LD deck, i loved birds, because it was so imperative to get all of those 3cc LD spells out on turn 2. that is a situation where your 3drop is so imperative for the performance of the deck.

that leads me to my next point. now after seeing why people run birds, the main reason why some avoid playing them is removal. there is so much burn and creature removal in the format all the time. if you get an opening hand with birds, i would bet that 90% of the time you are going to keep that hand regardless what else is in your hand (sans no forests). because "hey, i've got birds, so i can play anything faster than my oponent". this is all kosher until your opponent drops a mountain, taps for :r: and plays shock, targeting Birds of Paradise. Then your whole strategy is ruined. you are basically taken a turn back because all the cards you thought you could play on turn 2 or 3, now cant be played until 3 or 4. For this reason is why people run the 'land acceleratoin' rather than 'mana acceleration'.

My final point is for those playing death cloud. and i'm not talking about those who use a cloud to remove 2 cards in their opponents hand, or get rid of a few creatures on the other side of the board. i'm talking about the clouds that go balls out and clear the board leaving only three lands (and maybe a genju) on your side of the board. how does birds help you in this strategy? it doesn't. It usually kills itself in the wake of cloud, while giving you one less land if you tapped yourself out to rid your opponent of land. My strategty with cloud for this whole discussion has been to accelerate with my 8 searchers (elder and reach), while destroying my opponents land and tempo with plow under, befoul, and reap&sow. ensuring a clear board with 3+ lands is just unfair. if you've never played with some other deck and had your opponent DC for the board, then you have no room to give thought on the power of DC.

To cut this essay off, i just want to say that birds are great. I love birds. But you cant just throw them in a deck and expect the world. You have to know what the purpose and strategy of your deck is. You have to know what cards are playable when. You have to konw the reprecussions of playing and losing the birds. Only then can you know if and when to play with birds.

HazaredTheOmega

03-22-2005, 08:58 PM

Jhemel

03-22-2005, 10:19 PM

I don't have any Zealots. Any they cost GG.

Wild Card

03-23-2005, 12:42 AM

I guess most things were said about the using and not using of BoP...

To cut it short... it depends on your deck. I use them in my aggro-control because I have more 3cc spells (most important Troll with 1GG).
And it is right... it is just risky to keep a hand with only one Forest, a BoP and a STE...

In my control-version I wanted to accelerate to spells like Plow under, Molder Slug, Kokusho or Death Cloud... STE and Reach are doing that perfectly, also fixing colorproblems.

Our next FNM is canceled due to Easter and after that we will draft... So it will take some time until I can play my aggro-control at a FNM. So please post your experiences in the meantime.

Edit: Omega mentioned Viridian Zealot and I think it is a creature to include well in the aggro-control-version to have something maindeck. I just couldn`t find a place in my deck...

Dementia_Rex

03-23-2005, 01:06 AM

Ok, been following this thread for a while, figured I'd jump in.

I've been playing BG for a while in Standard, and let me just say the Rock it is not. Modern BG is a good choice for the post banning meta because new decks are still testing the water after the cannonball of Raffinity. Aggro is not big right now, mostly because there wasn't anyother aggro deck that could really compete with those nasty Ravagers hopping about. Perhaps Monored or WW can become stronger(I doubt WW will ever be very good without Geddon, though) but until then it's Control and Combo. Combo in Beacon Green and in a way TAN, though tooth is more of an aggro/combo deck, it ignores it's opponent for the most part like most combo but can lays the beats later in the game. Control in the ever ugly MUC and to a lesser extent MBC. I've even seen some Mono Black Aggro floating around, though the effectiveness outside of block is debatable. My local meta is very varied so I chose a deck that can deal with that, BG. Besides the fact that I adore mana accel and nothin says I kill you like a big black dragon spirit. Anyways, I prefer control builds, but aggro GB is a contender and deserves looking into as such. But I'm a control player by heart so here's my deck list.

Mana:22

10 Trees
9 Skulls
1 Okina
1 Shizo
1 Tendo, IB

Accel: 9

4 STE
3 K Reach
2 R Growth

Control: 16

3 DC
2 H Laughter
2 E Decay
2 R Flesh/
4 P Under
3 C Extraction

Big things that make you go Ouchie: 6

4 Kokusho TES
2 M Slug

Utility: 6

4 E Witness
2 S Divining Top

Random Fun: 1

1 Beacon of Unrest

Side Board: (Meta Choice, MUC and WW is HUGE here)

3 Persecute
2 Choke
3 Nezumi SF
4 Naturalize
3 Terror

A few notes on Card Choices:

The random Unrest could be a land or something, but I've actually found it to be very useful, occassionally I just want a cheaper way to cheat a Kokusho into play, and stealing opposing witnesses is always good fun.

Slug: I don't care if Affinity is dead and buried, a 4/6 for five is a 4/6 for five. And it both eats equipment and stops WW's ground pounders cold. Besides, some form of Arti removal is still a necessity MD. Everyone is dusting off those Scepters, etc now that Oxidize has been buried with Ravager. Also, it's a nice beat stick against control.

MD Extraction: No, it doesn't win games. But Tooth is big and Tooth hates Cranial. Also it's nice to say bye bye to opposing Dragons in the mirror. Sided out against WW and random crap, but random crap doesn't scare me as I usually can simply out play said random crap player.

Decay/Laughter: Both are useful. One is point and click, one says goodbye to Meloku tokens and Rude. So I go two and two. Besides, the mana cost is rarely an issue with the accel in this deck.

R Growth: I find that turn 2 elder is sooo important to this deck that I like running 6. 4 in testing was too much.

Mana issues: I know BG is supposed to have fits in the mana dept but frankly I've never had the problem. I'm gone 4.0 in the past 5 FNM's in a row and never had color screw. Green is more important than black, as green will get you black.

Top: I cannot stress how good top is in here. After cloud it's great and before it helps find the cloud.

A few notes abscences:

Troll: Troll is good. Troll says No to V Shackles. But Troll also does not play well with Cloud and Laughter. If I was going to go aggro I would run him, I'm not so he's abscent.

Genju: All in all too mana intensive. I don't plan on beating after cloud, I plan on clouding for the win. Also Plow is rampant here, and nothing says "Plow me!" like a Genju.

MD Persecute: Not worth it. Yes it can give you a win. Yes your opponent will swear after you make them ditch 3 Vernal Blooms and a Tooth(I've done it, BIG SMILE). But the 'cute is best as a surprise. And the meta is too odd right now to main it.

I'd love to add Iwamori but I don't want to see a Dragon appear on turn 3 in the mirror. He belongs in the board of Aggro, but not in control. Karsty I think is a better choice anyways for beats.

A word on MUC: I know this deck is now everywhere. But frankly I've never lost a match to it. And I don't play Boseiju. I think maining Boseiju is falling prey to the "fear" and I don't like playing like that. I find that Shortfang, Choke, and 'cute out of the board is enough hate against MUC. Oh, and side out Kokusho. They bring in Bribery, and though it slows you down, you can still win without it as this is a slow matchup. The look on their face when they shuffle through you're deck all smiley looking for a dragon to beat you down and find only slug and witness is great, too. All in all, I think this is a good matchup for BG. At least in my experience.

Still playing around with card numbers, but I'm pretty satisfied with the choices.

Comments welcome.

-T.

AlaskanMagic

03-23-2005, 01:32 AM

Elbereth: Those numbers were for maindeck card ratio's, though they are constantly changing as I am trying to find the optimal build for my metagame and play style.

BoilermanX: Good to read from you. Great analysis on Birds and I agree completely, except I do run them in Aggro for turn 2 Ascetic.

Dementia: How about a surprise Persecute game #1?? Seems good, but I'm still torn on the debate of whether to maindeck it. Also, I find that I rarely Cloud for the kill....it is more to clear all hands and lands except for my two forest and 1 swamp which is where Genju comes in. After a Cloud, he's a short clock. Slug is a fattie, but it will kill those Tops of yours unless you put them on Top of your library which isn't always the best option. Synergy wins the most games.

Jhemel: Do you take your own pictures? :)

All: I checked out Star City forums for B/G and they have some good thoughts brewing. The majority run Rampant Growth over Reach and it is something I think needs testing especially if you run Barters, Solemns, Eradicate, Cranials, and/or Persecute. Also, with all the shuffling effects in this deck, Top is golden, but not more than 2-3. Peace.

DroNugz420

03-23-2005, 11:12 AM

Rock

4xNight's Wispers
4xGreen Genju
4xHorobi's Whisper
3xCranial Extraction
1xRude Awakening
3xDeath Cloud
3xSickening Shoal

4xBirds of Paradise
4xSakura Tribe Elder
4xEternal Witness
3xTroll Astetic
3xKokusho

10x Swamp
10x Forest
1x Shizo
1x Okina

SB
4x Nezumi Shortfang
2x Boseiju
4x Naturalize or maybe even Wear Away with the # of Arcane in here.
3x Engineered Explosives
2x ??? -Maybe Persecute or Eradicate

Basically my block build with a few cars switched around...this deck just wins and I'm not jsut saying that. Still need to find and then play the rst of the gauntlet. Only real decks that I've played have been UG and Tooth...beats both.

Rook

03-23-2005, 11:27 AM

Can some one please give me advice for my deck i want to know what you all think about it.

So answer back

fromthelab

03-23-2005, 11:34 AM

one thing i dont understand is people complaining about double mana casting cost cards (ie zealot, distress)... honestly think about it this way: you run green. GREEN! :g: :g: :g: :g: !! you can pull any color mana you want. given that, by 3rd turn you should be able to play GG or BB if you want.

and about pulling the mana... i know i havent been in the forums for the longest time, so i may not have that much cred with you guys, but i've tested quite a lot with Standard BG ever since the Kamigawa patch came out for Apprentice... and here's what i've come up with.

Birds is awesome. considering its main purpose is just accel so you can A) play Reach early or B) play your second turn Troll and beat down, it doesnt matter if they burn it or bounce it because once they get the chance to, its probably already served its purpose and you dont need it anyway...
second, i understand that Solemn is really nice given its double purpose of fetch and draw. i used to run it as well, but in all honesty, its too slow. flat out. with this deck you dont need the extra chump blocker. its just not necessary i'd rather run 2 Night's Whisper and 2 Reach instead...
third, Reach is a lot better than Rampant. the extra :1: is worth it and you should be able to play it by second turn, third turn latest and pull your 4th/5th turn Kokusho or bomb of your choice a turn early. Rampant pulls only 1 land and its just not aggressive enough imo. and if you play Cloud? Reach over Rampant NO QUESTION.

@Rook: the Hana and Uproot really aren't necessary. i kinda see what you're trying to do, but honestly, Plow Under works so much better. maybe 3 or even 4 of those if you want and you still have 4 open spots for kill spells or maybe Night's Whisper to help speed it up a bit. or some disruption if you can get any (extraction or persecute or even distress?) other than that your build looks aite... i think the Trellis is a nice touch too. they're really effective against weenies and firewalkers... do you really need 4 Cloud? maybe swap one out for a Kokusho? oh ya, and you need at least 1 more Forest...

@Dro: just wondering but why did you pick Horobi's Whisper over Terror? i know it kills Titan, but wouldnt you rather run Rend Flesh for 3 mana?

@Jhemel: i think that zealot is nice, but it is a lil slow for the deck overall... the body doesnt provide much but a chump and you still have to pay the extra to activate it. Naturalize in the SB should be sufficient, but if you like the Zealots and have a problem getting them, i have them pretty cheap at my store. just let me know and i can hook you up. ;)

(that hook up goes out to all you guys by the way. im not guaranteeing the absolute lowest rock bottom prices, but if you have any trouble getting anything holler at me and i'll see what i can do. AIM: fromthelab79)

Jager9999

03-23-2005, 01:43 PM

Well I am back from a magic hiatus. Now if anything I say has been said before, I am sorry. Anyways, here I go.

Death Cloud- Powerful? Yes. Can it be used to our advantage like it used to? That is a differant question. The deck was previously powerful due to its ability to abuse the graveyard, IE Oversold. Now the question is, can we figure out a way to make deathcloud work for us?

The most obvious way apparent to me would be using the Genju. The black or green one is the next question, that will be left to playtesting and your preferance (I would likely go with green.)

The next way would appear be ninjas. I dont think I really have to explain how useful these can be with witness. Not to mention the various tricks you would do to set up a favorable cloud.

Anyways, here is a possible deck list that I am tossing up on the spot.

Lands(22)
1 Shizo
1 Okina
11 Forest
9 Swamp

Creatures (22)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
3 Throat Slitter
2 Okiba Gang
3 Troll Aescetic
2 Kokoshu

Spells (
4 Echoing decay
3 Dark Banishing (Maybe rend flesh or spirit or something, not sure)
3 Death Cloud
3 Genju (Black or green)
3 Cranial Extraction

That is a rough idea of what I was thinking. Perhaps drop Extraction from MD and toss in SB for Nights Whisper. I wouldnt mind trying to get another Throat slitter and 1 more Gang in but the only way I can really think to do that would be to cut out the trolls, which I dont know if I would want to do. If this is ***, I havent played in 5 months so give me a break.

Hyram

03-23-2005, 01:54 PM

My Deck and Two cents

//Land
1x Okina, Temple to the Granfathers
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
10x Forest
9x Swamp

//Creatures
1x Phyrexian Plaguelord
3x Kokusho, the Evening Star
2x Kodama of the North Tree
4x Sakura Trube Elder
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Eternal Witness

//Spells (16)
4x Kodama's Reach
3x Rend Flesh
3x Hideous Laughter
3x Death Cloud
3x Night's Whisper
1x Rude Awakening

//Sideboard
4x Cranial Extraction
3x Solemn Simulacrum
4x Echoing Decay
4x Naturalize

I pick Flesh over spirit b/c IMO dropping a second Kokusho is almost the same as rending it, and is even better if it does cost you 4 more... How do people like playing ninjas? What advantage does it give? If you look at my build it works at accel to 5 on turn 3 for a fatty... :D

Jager9999

03-23-2005, 02:14 PM

A awesomeness of a turn 3 fatty cant be denied. However that doesnt make up for the, durability if you will, the deck lost when onslaught rotated. The deck could dig its way out of a hole. I want to post other ideas save I am afraid that I will be flamed off the thread telling me to go to a ninja thread.

BTW Dementia excellent post. Good ideas, giving me some stuff to millover in my head.

NeXoPheuS

03-23-2005, 03:07 PM

Here's my list.
Will try this at the FNM this friday.

Sideboard is geared towards XUC, don't know for sure but suspect the meta to be heavily geared towards blue control with G or mono.
Still testing with troll / Kodama / shortfang. don't really know. At the moment i'm worried about kokusho being the only real kill in the deck. Cedars after cloud could... im not really sure... Thats the reason for main Kodama N.

// Lands
1 [CHK] Shizo, Death's Storehouse
10 [7E] Swamp
11 [7E] Forest
1 [CHK] Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers

// Creatures
3 [CHK] Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 [CHK] Kodama of the North Tree

// Spells
3 [UD] Plow Under
3 [DS] Death Cloud
3 [BOK] Genju of the Cedars
4 [DS] Echoing Decay
4 [CHK] Kodama's Reach
3 [8E] Persecute
2 [CHK] Hideous Laughter
2 [CHK] Rend Flesh

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [8E] Naturalize
SB: 4 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 2 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
SB: 4 [8E] Choke

Any tips on this deck are welcome.

PS. I'm really trying the GB-Rats build, love the theme and it could really work. adding aether vial...

Elbereth

03-23-2005, 04:30 PM

BoilerXmen: great analysis on birds, I agree with just about everything u said.

I just can't seem to take the persecute off the main board, I just always remember the look on my opponents face who was playing mono-green beacon when I dropped it on turn four game 1. I love it. Gonna try both rampant growth and kodama's reach main to see which I like better, but I like dementia's idea of having 6 total 2cc land searchers. Also, i think that either the green genju or the boseiju/sylvan scrying/rude combo should be in between main and side, cause both work wonders against blue. Already tried the genjus, worked out pretty good, won me games against blue, but gonna probably try the rude's out with boseiju next to see which I like better. Good stuff everyone, keep it up.

oo, and one more thing, top rules.

Hyram

03-23-2005, 05:13 PM

I need to get some persecutes....
Gotta agree with Elb about the Tops, in combination with Night's whisper, they more or less win games sometimes. I like the idea of running scrying SB for you Boseju... We need treetop village for MUC matchup :D.
I have been playtesting Choke vs MUC this afternoon and Spectral Shift is just about the most broken card in MUC SB. No targeted blue hate can touch 'em, boys we should reconsider those chokes. In other news about MUC, my 5 man tech with DC usually works pretty good if it doesnt get countered, They usually are either tapped out for bauble or I get rid of a counter from their hand and IMO on 3rd turn thats not too bad.

boilerXmen4116

03-23-2005, 05:15 PM

to fromthelab:

i'm not sure if you misinterpreted my comments about birds, but i would just like to clarify. Most aggro builds will prefer to run birds. The speed is undeniable, that's why they go for over $12 online. And from the sound of it, it sounds like you want to run more aggro than control. The birds definitely help getting a turn 2 troll, or a turn two reach so you can drop a kokusho turn 4. (heck, birds-reach-plow is pretty clutch too). But i want you to understand that when you play birds, you MUST have 3drops ready to play the next turn. Otherwise it is much safer and wiser to play the land searchers to accel into your 4 and 5 drops a turn early. Most control builds will go this route playing elders and reaches (some rampant growth for the 2nd turn accel), because they either dont run troll, or can afford to wait until turn 3 to play reach. i'm not saying the way you play is wrong, or that mine is right. i'm just suggesting that when you play birds, you have something to accel to the next turn.

and as for the rampant growth discussion. i'd like to try it out myself, abandoning the reaches, and switching to 8 turn 2 land accelerators. This would greatly help in the turn 3 persecute, solemn, eradicate, iwamori, yukora, befoul, reap and sow, or any other 4 drops you can think playable. (oh yeah, i forgot hideous laughter and NoSB). i run the 8 second turn accelerators in my GW aggro deck, and i love it. I'm sure it would work just as well, if not better in a BG control/aggro build.

fromthelab

03-23-2005, 06:20 PM

@boiler: i wasnt commenting on your post about Birds at all, just stating something in general. i completely agree that Birds arent necessary for control oriented builds. heck, i agree with everything you just said. its just that the metagame at my store is very control oriented, and i know that BG cant "outcontrol" monoU, but it can suuure beat it down and thats what im tryin with my personal BG build. as far as rampant growth goes, i think thats more of a preference call. many people prefer the turn 2 accel, but my deck is fairly tight on mana, so i want to pull out as much as i can so i can draw my bombs as fast as i can...

a question to throw out there to people who have been testing. and i know this might sound like a dumb question... but i know Dosan is prefered as far as slowing down monoU post SB... but has anybody tried Gaea's Herald at all? just a thought.

replicantN6

03-23-2005, 07:43 PM

ok, been testing this a lot, and i'm constantly disappointed by plow under right now. Has anyone else found this? Blue draws through it or just stops it (5cc sorcery?), tooth accelerates and top means they don't miss a beat, WW doesn't care much, and mono black often has arena in play.

Yea, i realise these are all situations that don't happen every game, but they make plow under conditional on the game state, and i don't like conditional. Deathcloud is never conditional. You accelerate mana, and wipe everything away. I appreciate it makes the tooth matchup worse, but i've always found a big deathcloud far more effective against tooth than a single plow under.

I know it seems really bad, but i've been testing abyssal specter as well, and adding ink eyes over a kokusho. Shortfang has never worked for me, because i'm busy using my mana up until i cloud, and then he dies anyway. So playing shortfang means i have to keep him on top of my library until i cloud, which is a horrible plan. Specter just gets out there, and starts swinging, making deathcloud more devastating, as people have to commit more to the board. If silent specter was inthe format, it'b be a better fit, but abyssal specter seems the best we have. He also teams up nicely with ink eyes, firstly by forcing discard, and secondly by being flying and thus difficult to block, so you can ninjitsu ink eyes into play. Not to mention ink eyes makes Shizo really useful for a change.

Also, with the amount of land search, it's easy to play a single mountain (maybe 1 in the sideboard if necessary) and have boil as a backup plan against mono blue. They won't see it coming vs G/B, so are unlikely to bring in spectral shift. It gives a nice end of turn play even if countered, so you can tap them out and force through a big cloud on your turn.

boilerXmen4116

03-23-2005, 09:29 PM

Also, with the amount of land search, it's easy to play a single mountain (maybe 1 in the sideboard if necessary) and have boil as a backup plan against mono blue. They won't see it coming vs G/B, so are unlikely to bring in spectral shift. It gives a nice end of turn play even if countered, so you can tap them out and force through a big cloud on your turn.
Personally, I have never been a fan of splashing for other colors. Cards that should be splashed are ones that can directly benefit your deck, or hurt many decks. Boil only hurts blue. The most splashable card in the format now is extraction, which can wreck most any deck if you know what they are running (that is why i think wizards made a mistake with the casting cost). but blue players should be siding in spectral shift whenever they see green OR red. Choke and Boil alike are both blue killers. Choke probable more than Boil because every deck and their cousin runs green nowadays. It is a good thought though (something that a few on this forum dont contribute too and only put down people's ideas), and if you've tested it with success, then a splash could be viable.

Jager9999

03-23-2005, 11:34 PM

@ Replicant

Plow under screws up tempo. Your examples all are good uses of the card. If Plow under goes off against blue and they dont counter, that likely means they dont have a counter, or they are just totally unconcerned with it, at which point you are fooked regardless. If they use a card to draw those lands you plowed then that means fewer cards that are actually usable for them. In the case of tooth and nail if you plowunder and they havent toothed yet, that likely means they dont have the tooth. Put two lands on top fo their library that means a few more turns that they cant tooth.

That being said I dont often use Plow Under. I dont care for it to much, but I recognize how powerful it can be.

replicantN6

03-24-2005, 05:11 AM

@Jager

Yeah, i appreciate the power of Plow, i just think that it's too inneffectual right now for us to spend a turn using it. If we were as aggro and explosive as old trinity green, i'd say go for it, but in this deck, when i have 5 mana, there are other things i'd rather be doing. the only matchup it really shines is the mirror, i've been finding.

General:

I've been testing a lot on magic online (username:replicant, if anyone wants to discuss there). Ponza seems to be everywhere. Honestly, that deck is just so inconsistant. It just hopes for a turn 1 mox/slith, turn 2 LD going first, or it's in trouble. Anyway, i have found that Vine Trellis helps a lot, being hard to kill and it blocks a slith for a while, allowing you to build a strong mana base. The other card i have been toying with for the mirror is Crucible of Worlds, making your Deathcloud recovery flawless, as well as being a complete beating for Ld.

I should really post my current list, just so people can get some of the flaming out of their system. It has a couple of differences, i guess, to most builds.

Guys:
4 Sakur Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Kokusho, Evening Star
1 Ink Eyes, Servant of the oni

Almost Guys:
3 Genju Of the Cedars
1 Time of Need

Removal:
2 Eradicate
2 Hideous Laughter
2 Oblivion Stone
4 Deathcloud

Other Stuff:
4 Rampant Growth
3 Senseis Divining Top

Land:
1 Shizo
1 Okina
1 Boseiju
1 Mountain
11 Forest
8 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Viridian Shaman
3 Vine Trellis
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cranial Extraction
2 Distress
3 Boil

I guess the most questionable card is oblivion stone, so i should address that. I am finding the deck has a couple of holes. It doesn't like equipment. It doesn't like enchantments or fat black creatures. Oblivion stone is a board sweeper, fixing random problems like genju, equipment, phyrexian arena, yukora, guardian idols, and armies of small guys if your opponent overextends. Yes, it is mana intensive. But it's not as bad as you think, due to the legions of willing chump blockers this deck can stock against beatdown. This card is helping a lot with mono black, aggro red, and WW, as none of those decks are running good answers to this.

the hideous laughter has gone down in value since adding oblivion stone, so i may trade those for a couple of terror, which fix the slith firewalker and hikori, dust drinker problems. eradicate seems good, especially if you hit eternal witness, or use genju on opponents land and remove those.

Flame on.

troubadour

03-24-2005, 06:33 AM

I'm curious, is Ninjutsu considered a spell? Is Ninjutsu considered an ability of the card, or a spell unto itself? Basically, i want to know if blue can counter Ninjutsu creatures. i really dont know myself.

EDIT: okay, i found out Ninjutsu is not a spell, but an ability. thus, it cannot be countered by Hinder, mana leak, pretty much most of blue's spells. nifty, hey. it'd be awesome attacking with birds of paradise and then all of a sudden, it Ink-eyes, or even okiba-gang shinobi.

NeXoPheuS

03-24-2005, 07:09 AM

LOL, attacking with birds !!! sounds like a plan :)

Wild Card

03-24-2005, 07:57 AM

LOL, attacking with birds !!! sounds like a plan :)

It actually is a plan... when I tested Buthrakaurs list I just attacked with BoP when I had nothing else to do with them... Most opponents (though perhaps just the less experienced) take it as a joke and don`t care about it.

And yes... Ninjutsu is an activated ability and blue has only Squelch at the moment.

@ Replicant

In the mirror I believe it is much more important to play the first Plow under/ Extraction/ Persecute and again with Eternal Witness. Crucible seems a nice idea but as you said it is mostly not needed against Ponza and if you want to negate a drawback of the Cloud you would have to play it maindeck already.
Vine Trellis is a solid Blocker... unless you need the mana from them...

NeXoPheuS

03-24-2005, 08:05 AM

Briljant, I have to try this at FNM. Not really that high skilled players around. (including me :P )

Elbereth

03-24-2005, 10:13 AM

replicant, try running persecute, i run both persecute and plow main, I like them both together than just having one, but if you really dont like plow, then just run the persecutes. Having those two, with witness to fetch them back, is awesome against control and mono-colored decks.

DroNugz420

03-24-2005, 11:11 AM

A little while back someone said Rend Flesh is better than Horobi's Whisper. I highly doubt this...with CHK block cards making their way into T2 the number of spirits is going to grow...and already is. Even if i didn't, I'd rather have whisper as my spot removal, just because of splicability. I love extracting w/ killing something on the board.

And if anyone decides to pull the MBC arguement...what do they win with? Yukora, Kokusho, Genju? All spirits. The only time Rend Flesh would be good is for Shortfang.

And I definately think with the number of decks running Genju, Plow Under is a def. addition (or keeper) in this deck.

And the idea of Stone...I like explosives...with Birds and City you should be able to make it up to 5. Usually with big fatties, you can chump or kill w/ Genju/Kokusho. Or just get rid of it w/ Cloud.

Wild Card

03-24-2005, 11:21 AM

A little while back someone said rend fles is better than Horobi's Whisper. I highly doubt this...with CHK block cards making their way into T2 he number of spirits is going to grow...and already is. Even if i didn't, I'd rather have whisper as my spot removal, just because of splicability. I love extracting w/ killing something on the board.

And if anyone decides to pull the MBC arguement...what do they win with? Yukora, Kokusho, Genju? All spirits.

I can just say one thing... Playing Witness and wanting to splice Horobi`s Whisper is just a bad idea...

Comparing Spotremoval we can say that there is probably just the question of Terror, Rend Flesh or Dark Banishing. Terror is the best unless T&N with Titan is quite strong in your metagame. Then you should use Rend Flesh or Dark Banishing.

Genjus are killed by Plow under and with that they don`t come back.

Yokura or Kokusho can be killed with Death Cloud or Barter in Blood.

And pulling the MBC arguement... Here I would immediately use Horobi`s Whisper with some arcanes to splice to.

JMcCraw

03-24-2005, 12:31 PM

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
4 Eternal Witness
------------------------
15 Creatures

3 Death Cloud
3 Diabolic Tutor
4 Kodama’s Reach
1 Honden of Life’s Web
1 Honden of Night’s Reach
1 Honden of Seeing Winds
3 Echoing Decay
4 Night’s Whisper
1 Naturalize
1 Barter in Blood
------------------------
22 Spells

2 City of Brass
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Island
2 God’s Eye, Gate to the Reikai
9 Forest
7 Swamp
------------------------
23 Lands

3 Naturalize
2 Persecute
2 Cranial Extraction
2 Plow Under
3 Troll Ascetic
1 Echoing Decay
2 Barter in Blood
------------------------
15 Sideboard

This is basically the build I've been using for the last few weeks, the basic gameplan is to lessen the effects a giant deathcloud has on me. There are a ton of 1 and 2 of's but I tried to compensate for that using the Diabolic Tutors. The Hondens are used to take some of the luck needed out of top-decking and buy time.

ITOmarHernandez

03-24-2005, 02:14 PM

3 Diabolic Tutor.....
...
There are a ton of 1 and 2 of's but I tried to compensate for that using the Diabolic Tutors. The Hondens are used to take some of the luck needed out of top-decking and buy time.

Ummm.. If Diabolic Tutor were legal in Type 2 we would OWN every deck out there.. But, since it's not T2 legal, it's time to go back to the drawing board.

Akroma Angel of Wrath

03-24-2005, 02:14 PM

Tutors are an okay addition, but hondens? They are just bad. God's eye seems like a decent land though

Morgasm

03-24-2005, 02:43 PM

Ummm.. If Diabolic Tutor were legal in Type 2 we would OWN every deck out there.. But, since it's not T2 legal, it's time to go back to the drawing board.

Uh.... Diabolic Tutors ARE legal in T2... they were reprinted in 8th Ed... :rolleyes:

ITOmarHernandez

03-24-2005, 02:52 PM

Yep... I officially had a brain fart... My eyes saw Diabolic Tutor but my brain thought Vampiric Tutor.

I will now officially go f**k myself!

Buthrakaur

03-24-2005, 03:08 PM

please do that somewhere else, we don't want to see that.

On to B/G decks. I see people debating Plow Under, and wonder, why? The card is absolutely brutal. It is a huge tempo swing, costing them two land drops and two card draws. Yes, they can minimilise the effects, but not negate them. Sure, lots of decks are accelerating mana, but this one card nulifies all their acceleration. A huge play is to accelerate into a turn 4 Plow, then Dealthcloud for 3 next turn. Unless they accelerated land themselves, they have no land in play, and one on top of their deck, while you have 3 land (2 if BoP was your accelerant). That = game. Even late game, Plow is a godsend, even if the two lost land is insignificant, the two lost draws are not.

Jager9999

03-24-2005, 03:13 PM

I started working on a more aggro based :b::g: ninja deck. I played a couple games against MWC winning both, but it still needs some work. I am not sure if hidious laughter is needed, may drop it for nights whisper.

// Lands
1 [CHK] Shizo, Death's Storehouse
9 [CHK] Swamp
11 [MR] Forest
1 [CHK] Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers

// Creatures
2 [8E] Ravenous Rats
2 [CHK] Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 [BOK] Throat Slitter
3 [DS] Grimclaw Bats
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [8E] Birds of Paradise
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [BOK] Okiba-Gang Shinobi

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [CHK] Hideous Laughter
3 [DS] Echoing Decay
3 [8E] Dark Banishing
3 [DS] Death Cloud

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CHK] Hideous Laughter
SB: 2 [BOK] Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
SB: 3 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 [MR] Troll Ascetic
SB: 3 [BOK] Isao, Enlightened Bushi
SB: 3 [8E] Persecute

Elbereth

03-24-2005, 04:49 PM

anybody try using eradicate? haven't tried it myself, but just wondering if anyone else has run it with some success.

AlaskanMagic

03-24-2005, 05:05 PM

Mono Blue Control is a very good deck. I have built and tested it against decks that would seem to be good against it, like Ponza, and it still just wins. It is also my opinion that MUC beats Tooth and Nail. If the players in your area are testing, expect to see the most competitive of them playing MUC. Because of the MUC, expect Ponza. That is how it is here so I have had to tune my deck accordingly. While Buthrakaur is absolutely correct in saying that Plow Under is a good card, countermagic or Thirst for knowledge just beats it. I love the card but have taken it out of my maindeck in favor of a quicker, more aggro version that also runs Death Cloud as a control button. My focus on synergy has blinded me to the importance of utility, an aspect of magic theory that Buthrakaur and others were pointing out earlier in this forum. MOST versions of G/B should run Death Cloud on the sole basis that it is a utility card, even the more aggro ones. The list I have been working on lately is not pure aggro, but uses cards that just wreck MUC. Turn 2 Troll Ascetic is MVP in this category, backed by the impressive Sword of Fire and Ice and Genju of the Cedars. The list does very well vs. MUC and Ponza, but relies on sideboarding to beat Tooth and Nail. I have found that focusing on Death Cloud can be devasting, but having it countered is just as bad. Its place in my deck is now a reset button rather than game plan #1 which is beat down.

replicantN6

03-24-2005, 05:23 PM

@Elbereth

Yes, persecute is a good inclusion. I just don't own them on magic online, but i play them in real life. They replace the distress in the sideboard, but not main, although i can see situations where they can be useful main (see my discussion on plow under below, because i feel similarly about persecute, despite my love of that card. If we had V tutor, it'd play one. We dont, so i don't).

@Buthrakaur

Plow Under... Hmmm, i have such a love/hate relationship with this card. I guess if it works for you, then run it, and run 4. But let me explain my deckbuilding philosophy (this may be a lengthy post). As i said in an earlier post, i don't like conditional.

I'll use an example, and i fully realise that this is a hypothetical, and there are a million different ways this could play out depending on what each player draws:

Let's say we play the mirror. My opp is going first, and plays turn 1 sensei's top. Turn 2 sakura elder, turn 3 solemn, turn 4 witness sakura, play it. Now, you can plow under. Saccing the elder means they lose one land. In addition, they get a shuffle, and have an active top, so their next land draw is guarenteed, if that's what they want. You have pushed them back one turn, but it's taken you a turn to do it, they have advanced their position. Now there are 2 plays for you, you can try and recur plow, which uses two turns (witness, then plow), or you can DC. Only they have a solemn and top in play, so DC isn't ideal.

Now as i said, thet's not the only way it could go, but it is one way it could go. In this scenario, plow under has become a 5cc sorcery which reads desroy target land. I would never play a card like this. All it requires is for your opponant to have a sakura and a top in play, to reduce this card to a very overpriced stone rain.

In another scenario: you draw an opening hand with land, Birds, witness and 2 plow under. Your opponent is red deck. Keep? I'd say you have to mulligan. If the birds die, or your opp gets a fast slith, you are in trouble. Again, this scenario may not come up, but it might.

Plow in an ideal scenario can win games all on it's own. Plow in a bad situation can make no difference to the game at all, effectively becoming a dead draw.

This ties in to my deckbuilding philosophy, to which i owe a big deal of thanks to affinity, in that i couldn't beat deck to beat affinity and beat everything else, like tooth. Because the cards you needed against affiinity were crap against tooth, and vice-versa. And i realised that my deck was playing "virtual mulligans", i.e. cards that i didn't want to see sometimes, in some matchups or situations. This is something i now avoid like the plague. I don't like conditional cards, unless you have a good tutor to fetch one-ofs. We currently have no good tutor. If we had vamp, i would play a single plow. As it is, i don't want to risk drawing it in situations where it is dead.

If you look at my list, that is what it's attempting to do (and how i justify to myself not to play plow, despite the potential power). Accelerate up to a big cloud, and win from there. For this reason, top and solemn are key cards. I'll consider a 4th top, because with all the shuffle effects, you can gid rid of extras, but 4 sometimes feels like one too many.

All that said, and i know it's a lot, i can see that plow is very powerful, and i may be completely wrong excluding it. I am playing for consistant opening hands, at the sacrifice of the power of plow. If you want power, play plow.

General:

A bit more testing has shown that crucible is pretty strong. I might go to 2 trellis, and 2 crucible. The ability to just not care about LD is amazing, and in the mirror, casting the first DC for as much as possible, and recovering quicker can be key. Adding the crucible means you recover much quicker. A little bonus is that you can keep your legendary lands, even if your opponent has them, as you can just play them again from the yard.

Terror is better than laughter. Hikori is a big issue, and you want to kill it as soon as possible. If you are tapped out, terror kills it that turn. Anything else, and it takes an extra turn to kill it. Similarly, it's important to kill slith as soon as you can, to keep you out of slogger range later in the game. Terror is simply a turn faster.

AlaskanMagic

03-24-2005, 06:50 PM

replicant:

Terror and Hideous Laughter serve one purpose in two different ways. Terror is targeted removal, while Hideous Laughter is "mass" removal (hopefully!). Its almost like comparing apple's to orange's.

Vine Trellis? I wouldn't run Trellis over Sakura, Rampant Growth, Kodama's Reach, Sylan Scrying, Reap and Sow, and did I miss any others? You must not be playing with Death Cloud....Birds of Paradise barely works with Cloud. Am I missing someting?

JMcCraw

03-24-2005, 07:22 PM

Actually to whoever criticized the Hondens, they pretty much keep the game in your control after the death cloud. Against MUC if you resolved the black one they pretty much shouldn't be able to counter you and pretty much have to out race you on threats which you can handle more easily without fear of facing control. Against aggro the blue or green one give you a much stronger chance to draw into more threats more quickly than their life points can hold out, and hey if you get multiples into play it's just the icing on the cake.

As for the God's Eye I really don't see why people don't run atleast 2 in any Death Cloud deck. I was criticized in the previous thread for using them, but really they pull double duty when you Death Cloud since you sac lands then creatures.

Seeing as how I'm a total newbie and the arguement about Crucible of Worlds seems to pop up a bit, how exactly does it work? I can just put lands into play from my graveyard? I know how Crucible reads but I just figured I was having a spout of diminished mental capacity and that couldn't be what the card really does. If that's the case I might drop out a Night's Whisper for one. I'd love to drop the Meloku but she really does have fun bouncing my lands after I discard and need to sac them.

DAP

03-24-2005, 09:05 PM

Meloku has fun? lol!!! That's funny.

@JMcCraw

Your build is very atypical in comparison to most of the builds I have ever seen of Death Cloud. Considering that fact I think it would behoove you to give a much more detailed analysis of match ups v/s the tier 1 decks.

replicantN6

03-24-2005, 09:53 PM

@ alaskan magic

Yes, i think you might be missing something.

Vine trellis is in the sideboard for the LD matchup (as per my list, about a page ago). It blocks, buys you time, and produces mana. Thus you can survive more Ld in the early game, and stop a slith. It's also handy against WW, as it can stop pretty much any ground guy.

And yes, i actually do realise that hideous laughter serves a differnt purpose to terror. However i feel that Deathcloud and oblivion stone i run actually cover the mass removal slot quite nicely, and terror is for pinpoint removal of specific threats, which i feel the deck lacks.

JMcCraw

03-24-2005, 10:06 PM

TnN, MUC, B/G Control, Ponza are what I've played against.

Against TnN game 1: I pretty much try to minimize the size of Death Cloud if it's against Urzatron or Cloudpost versions although I haven't run into the latter at all recently. Since really I just need to get rid of those pesky non-basic lands. The Mono-green version is another story, basically I'll tutor for that lone naturalize to get rid of their bloom and then go for the cloud. Ideally I'll have either the blue or black honden in play when I do. Also, you can just let them play out bloom and play their game till they do TnN and then just punish them with a death cloud powered by your super forests.

Sideboarding against the Urzatron version I'll take out the Echoing Decays and the Naturalize and bring in the 2 Extractions and the 2 Barters. I like going for Darksteel Colussus and/or Sundering Titan if I've got Witness or a Tutor in hand.

Against Monogreen I'll take out the Hondens, the Echoing Decays, and 1 Night's Whisper for the 3 Naturalize and 2 Extractions and 2 Barters. The Monogreen is a pain in the *** to derail out of green so the hondens come out because there is more than likely Naturalize coming in for them. This is where Meloku takes over since both are probably light on creature hate.

In reality I haven't faced a version that has been able to really recover from a Death Cloud even when it's for a minimal amount of damage.
__________________________________________________ _______________

MUC:

Basically I pray they tap out on like turn 3 so I can drop the black honden. Otherwise I end up going into Boseiju boosted Deathcloud for a big a number as I can generate. The ironic thing about the splash of blue for the Honden and Meloku is I can effectively negate one of their kill conditions in Meloku and sometimes generate more of an advantage through Hondens.

When I sideboard this match it generally goes -1 Barter in Blood -1 Honden of Life's Web -2 Night's Whisper -4 Birds for +2 Persecute +3 Troll Ascetics +3 Naturalize. The game plan switches from Boseiju'd Death Cloud to Boseiju'd Persecute for Blue and drop a troll ascetic and refrain from dropping any other creatures for them to bounce or steal. If for some reason they aren't running shackles I'd keep 3 birds and just stay with 1 Naturalize.

__________________________________________________ _______________

The Mirror & MBC for the most part:

Unfortunately with my deck being a bit oddballed to what you guys have posted here I haven't had a true mirror, but basically the first game is always me searching religiously for all the hondens and letting them go for their boosted death cloud. With the green and black/blue honden in play you basically wreck their game plan of screwing you with a death cloud.

When I sideboard I'll generally drop Meloku, 1 Night's Whisper, 1 Echoing Decay, and 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder for 2 Barter in Blood and 2 Cranial Extraction. Extraction targets are Naturalize and Kokusho, anything else you should be able to deal with by dropping your hondens to prevent them from being ahead with a deathcloud.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Ponza:

I don't like this matchup one bit, especially if they drop the Mox/Mountain/Slith turn one with turn 2 LD. Your only real "hope" in this situation is chumping till you get Barter in Blood or 2 mana for a decay "if" it hasn't gotten out of hand. All I do after that is attempt to drop the green honden and death cloud.

Games 2 and 3 take out the Black Honden, 2 Death Cloud, Meloku, 2 Night's Whisper, and 1 Solemn Simulacrum to bring in 2 Barter in Blood, 1 Echoing Decay, 2 Persecute, 2 Cranial Extraction. The only targets I can think of ever using for Extraction is Pulse of the Forge and Beacon of Destruction.

__________________________________________________ _______________

I hope this is what you meant DAP. I'm sure I could do a lot of things better with the main deck and a slot or two on the sideboard, but right now I haven't gotten to see much of the aggro decks let alone any that really put me in a bind.

Wild Card

03-25-2005, 01:25 AM

@ Elbereth

Eradicate is so strong in several matchups... Unfortunately I only own one and also had the problem of getting slots free for them. But they have always been a power when I drew them. Eradicating Slogger, Kumano and Slith in row (with Witness) against Big Red is so ridiculous...
Removing opposing Witnesses is always strong and otherwise undestructible creatures are no problem with Eradicate.

Unfortunately they are only a sorcery and T&N is strong in my metagame so I prefered Rend Flesh (and one random Eradicate) until now...

NuOnDaNet

03-25-2005, 01:31 AM

i kinda agree with replicantN6 regarding Plow Under; i'm finding it to be a little ineffective of late and have been testing without it maindeck.

also i'm beginning to agree with Buthrakaur in that B/G needs to be more aggro-control than pure control since it can't "out-control" any blue-based decks (G/U or MUC). the sideboard could be used to either make it more control vs. aggro decks, or vice versa.

also, i read somewhere here (although i can't remember how many pages back) that someone was thinking of using Abyssal Specter. howz that working out? i'm toying with the idea myself coz i play against G/U a lot and my Troll Ascetics and Genju of the Cedars keeps getting chump-blocked by Sakura-Tribe Elders, Eternal Witnesses and Solemn Simulacrums.

another thing: i see a lot of lists that now have no maindeck artifact hate. i don't think itz a good idea, but i suppose only time and the metagame will tell...

here's the list i'm planning to test. comments/critiques/flames are welcome coz i find forums to be quite useful since i don't have a regular gaming group :(:

Maindeck:
4 x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 x Eternal Witness
4 x Troll Ascetic

3 x Abyssal Specter
3 x Kokusho, the Evening Star

3 x Genju of the Cedars
3 x Naturalize
4 x Kodama's Reach

3 x Echoing Decay
3 x Terror
3 x Death Cloud

11 x Forest
9 x Swamp
1 x Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 x Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Sideboard:
1 x Naturalize
2 x Sylvan Scrying
2 x Rude Awakening
3 x Plow Under
1 x Echoing Decay
1 x Terror
3 x Persecute
2 x ??? (i was thinking Cranial Extraction, but mebbe Hideous Laughter or Barter in Blood instead)

the (supposed) plan is to either control the board using removal while accelerating to Kokusho/big Death Cloud, or to get early beats in with Troll/Specter while using the removal to clear the way (and Death Cloud as a reset button if necessary). Genju is also there for early beats/post-Death Cloud.

NeXoPheuS

03-25-2005, 03:08 AM

personally i would include birds into this build, give's you a turn 2 troll. Ouch.

replicantN6

03-25-2005, 05:19 AM

@NuOnDaNet

it was me who was testing abyssal specter. It turned out mixed, sometimes they were amazing, sometimes they were ineffective, particulalrly if MUC ets shackles down. That said, they can block a lot of WW's fliers, and can push damage through in the mirror. I'm a bit undecided. At present, i'd only have maindeck room for 1 or 2 so i'm not playing them, but i will keep testing them, and see. If you test them, could you please let me know how they turn out? I'd be interested in a bit more feedback.

For the last couple of slots in your sideboard, it might be worth trying Umezawa's jitte. On a troll, it is just nasty, and if you build up counters, makes it very easy to keep creatures under control. It's very good, and if it makes it onto a troll, MUC is on a very short clock.

General:

I'm also trying out royal assassin, to help out in the WW matchup. He kills anything in their deck, and they often don't have a good way to kill him off (though some builds run purge). vine trellis is proving to be a house blocking WW and red deck, and i'd recommend trying it out.

Trellis is actually helping in the tooth matchup too, as the extra mana helps DC a turn faster, or insures a smooth 4 mana by turn 3 most hands (up to 11 turn 2 accelerators, so it's pretty solid), which means you get your persecute/extraction on schedule, and you can cloud for 1 more. Against tooth, i'm happy to DC to 2 lands anyway, if it wipes them down to 1 or zero, and wipes their hand.

Elbereth

03-25-2005, 07:30 AM

Thanks for the response on eradicate wildcard, I'll have to get a couple and try them out. I think I can speak for just about everyone when I say that I am having trouble deciding which cards to use for removal. I love echoing decay in just about every matchup and always feel that they should be main, and I just can't seem to decide between terror and rend flesh. I guess it depends on whether you have a lot of tooth in your area. And then there are the 4cc removers, barter, eradicate, and hideous laughter. i feel like at least one of these should be in the sideboard, while the echoing decays and terrors/rend fleshes should be main.

And I can't seem to decide which is better against blue, using the genju of the cedars, or using boseiju and rude. Right now I really like the genjus, and really want to try the rude's, anyone else tried both and found one to be better?

oh, and on the plow under and persecute arguments, i just can't seem to take either off the main board. I love having plow, DC, and cute for major threats against control that I can accel to. I can usually get one off, even against blue, because i also run troll main, and with the troll combined with those three threats, you should be able to get one through their counters. Without either of those, I just feel vulnerable to control.

I will be trying an aggro version as soon as I get the cards for it, only need a couple, and will run something very similar to Buth's version, but with nezumi shortfang.

alaskan, do you think you could post your current build, the one you were saying was good against blue? I'd like to check it out, sound's interesting.

BLUE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Santril_MtG

03-25-2005, 08:10 AM

Howdy folks -- been out for a bit, time to get back to kickin butt. :)
I've reworked my deck a little, trimming the fat and keeping what's been working. As I discussed awhile ago, it is DEFINATELY worth your time to conisder running Shirei, though you will probably need to SB her out for something more useful when playing Red. (Shock > Shirei :( )

Anyway, here's my new list, give it a runover. :)

Sakura-Tribe Elder x4
Solemn Simulacrum x4
Shrirei, Shizo's Caretaker x3
Kokusho the Evening Star x4
Eternal Witness x4

Echoing Decay x4
Terror x4
Plow Under x4
Genju of the Cedars x4
Rude Awakening x2
Phyrexian Arena x2

Forest x10
Swamp x9
Okina, Temple of the Grandfather x1
Shizo, Death's Storehouse x1

SB:
Choke x3
Cranial Extraction x3
Hideous Laughter x3
Rend Flesh x4
Dosan, the Falling Leaf x2

NuOnDaNet

03-25-2005, 08:45 AM

@ replicantN6:
thanks for the input, i'll try to get my hands on a coupla Jittes and test with them. or mebbe the U/R or B/W sword. will likely be using the Specters for FNM; i'll let you know how that turns out.

@ Santril_Mtg:
uhm...21 lands? your early acceleration is just Sakura-Tribe Elder (although you have Solemn Simulacrum, but that costs 4 mana). i'm guessing that you're using recurring STEs in conjunction with Shirei to get tons of land into play, but is the land count enough for you to get Shirei into play early? i dunno...mebbe Birds of Paradise over Jens? doesn't have as much synergy with the Rude Awakenings as Jens would, but i should think that it'd help you get Shirei into play earlier and more consistently. just a thought.

Santril_MtG

03-25-2005, 09:14 AM

Tried that, my previous decklist had 4 BoP in it. I've found though, that the Genju of the Cedars as a turn one drop results in a more beneficial chump blocker/early aggro than the slight mana advantage that BoPs give.

Generally speaking, once Shirei and even just one STE hit the field, it's 2-3 lands per turn. It turns sick when I've got 2-3 STE being regenerated, every turn. (Further, Shirei can be abused with Jens and Eternal Witness too -- Echoing Decay and Hideous Laughter are good for that. :) Of course, HL requires Okina to keep Shirei alive, at least in my setup, so it's kinda rare that I could do that, and thus never really rely on it.)

Elbereth

03-25-2005, 07:50 PM

k, got an FNM report. Went 3-1, only loss was to red, again, my worst matchup. here's the list:

4- sakura
4- witness
4- troll
3- kokusho

2- top

4- echoing decay
2- terror
3- kodama's reach
2- rampant growth
3- persecute
3- plow under
3- death cloud

lands:
12- forest
9- swamp
1- shizo
1- okina

sideboard:
4- naturalize
3- barter in blood
1- terror
1- persecute
1- plow under
2- rude awakening
1- boseiju
2- sylvan scrying

the three decks i beat were first a U/R deck with red for burn, and blue for bounce and counters with meloku as win condition. It also ran isochron scepter, which was pretty lethal with mana leak and magam jet, but he misplayed by tapping out to use his magma jet stick, so he had no mana to counter my kokusho. Next was a really wierd 4-color zubera deck, no idea what that was, and finally was a pretty good G/B snake deck, which could be lethal if not kept in check, but the echoing decays and barter in blood took care of that.

Now on to the problem against red. if anyone can provide some insight or some secret tech against the red matchup, it would be mutch appreciated, because I just can't seem to beat mono-red, whether it be ponza or sligh. They are just too fast and deal too much damage so quickly that I can't recover. I just can't seem to figure out this matchup.

there doesn't seem to be much blue in my metagame, which disappionts me because I was looking forward to testing against it. Anyway, hope the information helps and hope we can find an answer to red.

DAP

03-25-2005, 08:27 PM

@Elbereth

Crucible of Worlds would be an excellent choice against heavy LD builds but if they have enough burn, combined with Slith and friends and your only running 6 spot removal spells it may be too slow. My advice to you if you really fear the red decks (and their may soon be good reason to if there isn't already) would be to consider instead of splashing U splash W.
With W you could have access to Sacred Ground and Worship which when combined with Troll and/or Kodama N can give red decks real fits. This is actually a viable option for anyone and I have personally tested with it and had good results. It however was not a good idea against affinity and it's dreaded combo kills. Now that affinity is gone I have reconsidered the idea but am yet to go back to it and probably won't. Of course it couldn't hurt to test again as it can most certainly work. You could also add a 4th Kokusho since he is your only fat. I would also add a couple more Terror and possibly even a couple Rend Flesh if the builds you are facing are typically creature heavy. Plow under is pretty much worthless against them if they get off their LD spells on turn 2 or 3 and Persecute is only good if you come out fast and they come out slow. Your list looks pretty good against the field to me, so unless you are really scared of the red, I would give the environment a chance to shape up and see if LD and Sligh become the problem they most certainly can be.

EDIT: Sword of F+I is also an excellent option against their ground forces.

AlaskanMagic

03-26-2005, 02:24 AM

Played FNM and went 3-2. One loss was because of a stupid mistake in not mulliganing my two land hand against Ponza. I just felt lucky for some reason but I didn't draw into land until it was too late. I'll just have to focus more on probability rather than intuition. My other loss was fine because of the player I played and the deck he ran. He is very good and played a sligh deck that just out raced me. By the time I had control of the board, he just top decked burn to finish me off. He went on to win the whole thing.

Thoughts on the evening.....

Death Cloud is not the house that it used to be for me. The times that I cast it was only to finish my opponent off one turn faster. Manytimes, I would side it out for Persecutes which were huge for me tonight. I played turn 3 Persecute and scored 6 cards against Ponza....he scooped right after.

I'm going to go more aggressive, which I think will be better against Ponza, Sligh, and Mono-Blue, perhaps even Tooth if I fast enough. If Tooth stays big (it came in 2nd tonight), I'll deal with it in the sideboard. I am thinking something like this:

4 Birds
4 Sakura
4 Troll
4 Witness
2 Iwamori
2 Kokusho

2 Genju
4 Rampant Growth
4 Echoing Decay
2 Rend Flesh
3 Sword F & I
3 Persecute

22 land

or

4 Birds
4 Sakura
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Chittering Rats
4 Troll
4 Witness

4 Aether Vial
4 Echoing Decay
3 Sword of F & I
3 Persecute

22 land.

Comments Welcome

Midget

03-26-2005, 05:36 AM

As for the God's Eye I really don't see why people don't run atleast 2 in any Death Cloud deck. I was criticized in the previous thread for using them, but really they pull double duty when you Death Cloud since you sac lands then creatures.

When you play Deathcloud and you sac the Eye, the triggered ability won't go on stack until the whole Deathcloud has resolved. So you won't be able to sac the token.

h4bpeps

03-26-2005, 06:45 AM

check out my B/G build

1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Okina, temple to the grandfathers
11 Forest
7 Swamp
2 City of Brass
-------------------------------------------------------------
22 land

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Iwamori of the Open fist
2 Kodama of the North tree
3 Nezumi shortfang
3 Troll Asetic
-------------------------------------------------------------
24 Creatures

2 Echoing Decay
4 Terror
2 Time of need
2 Persecute
2 Death Cloud
2 Cranial extraction
-------------------------------------------------------------
14 other spells

3 Naturalize
3 Dosan the falling leaf/Choke
4 Plow under
1 Persecute
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Erradicate
1 Nezumi Shortfang
-------------------------------------------------------------

15 sideboard cards

Comments?

Wild Card

03-26-2005, 07:19 AM

roachman70

03-26-2005, 08:52 AM

Oh please... would it be possible to not just throw "random lists" in this forum but giving a bit more information on cardchoices or numbers of cards and your expected metagame?

For example:
Why playing just 2 each of Extraction, Cloud and Persecute in that last list. How is Time of Need working? Better than Commune with Nature in an aggro-control-build? Are 2 enough then?

(As an explanation... this is not to offend the last posters but an overall impression I sometimes get when coming back into the forum and reading 5 new lists in ten posts with sometimes only minor changes to the lists that were posted before.)

I agree with you wild card and so I am going to post my most recent list and give reasons for my card choices. However one of the problems is that when I go through this process many times people totally ignore my post and go right into posting lists again. One thing that I have found in playing BG is that not only are there 2 BG archetypes (control and agro) but many sub types within each.

I have for a while now been trying to straddle the fence between agro and control trying to have my cake and eat it too. The results have not been all that stellar. So I have decided to make it control. The reason is mainly due to my overall metagame but I do say I must strenuoulsly disagree (politely I add) to those who say that the agro version is better against red decks. As far as the muc match up I think both agro and control do just about as well or bad depending on your point of view. Tooth and Nail is difficult for agro because even if you get off to a really fast start they always seem to be able to pull off the tooth a couple of turns before you can kill them and then there go six lands and all your hopes. With the control version you can slow them down with plow unders cranial extractions and persecutes and set up a death cloud that destroys them. White Weenie seems to be a nightmare for both versions but I run main deck laughters which help alot. Ok without further adeiu here is my list and explinations

BG arcane control

22 land (may switch to 23)

1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Okina, temple to the grandfathers
9 Forest
9 Swamp
2 Boseiju

11 Creatures

4 Eternal Witness (run it in all Gx decks till its banned)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder ( see eternal witness comment)
3 Kokusho, the Evening Star ( best black creature in a long time)

Control- 20
3- Echoing Decay (post affinity still good for early board control)
4- Horobi's Whisper (arcane) (their are still artifacts we need to kill)
2- Persecute ( a boseijued one against MUC is gg)
3- Death Cloud (best removal spell in standard)
3- Cranial extraction (arcane) ( should be in every black control deck)(may drop to 2)
3- plow under ( love/hate relationship right now im in love)
2- hideous laughter (arcane) ( best main deck answer to WW)

Other 7
4- Kodama's Reach (arcane I like not missing land drops but could be replaced with reap and sow)
3- Genju of the Cedars ( I like this better than troll because it has much better synergy with death cloud and it cant be wrathed away)

Basicaly the strategy here is to control the early board not letting anything stay for too long. The main win conditions is Genju after death cloud or genju after hideous laughter. I swtiched from terror to horobi's whisper once I put the extraxctions and Hideous laughter in the maindeck. I think there is more synergy with them and it is nice to be able to kll a couple of creatures with the same spell. The cranials of course help out in the mirror and in the tooth match up and the maindeck dpersecutes are gold against pretty much every deck out there (if you draw them before they have already dumped their hands). The main deck I play with is MUC and in way when I play this deck I feel like I am still playing MU but rather than countering their stuff I let it resolve and then kill it. I could see running nights whisper or phyrexian arena for card drawing I'm just not sure what to cut yet.

My side board looks like this right now

3- trolls (MUC and RDW/ponza)
1- cranial extraction (TnN or other combo decks)
2- chokes (duh)
2- Rude Awakening (boseijues out against MUC=gg)
4 -naturalize (so many enchantments and artifacts still out there)
2- eradicate ( but its open for debate I can see NoSB or another plow and persecute)

One last comment: The have been several discussions about erradicate with lifespark spell bomb destroying most if not all of your opponents land base what do you guys think about it?

Wild Card

03-26-2005, 10:40 AM

Oh yes... this is the kind of post I love to read... A slightly different approach (we haven`t seen too many arcane builds here) with explanations to the cards and a bit of information about the metagame...

And now I have two questions...

Is splicing Horobi`s Whisper and Eternal Witness working well together?

What is your experience at the moment about the cardadvantage through splicing? Is it perhaps too manaintensive and thus coming too late?

About Eradicate... I think at first there were these kind of discussion with the Genju (at least the green one in this build) but it was too manaintensive to really work well.
With the Spellbomb this would be reduced a bit... but I don`t know if that is enough... And I didn`t test that until now.

roachman70

03-26-2005, 12:30 PM

And now I have two questions...

Is splicing Horobi`s Whisper and Eternal Witness working well together?

What is your experience at the moment about the cardadvantage through splicing? Is it perhaps too manaintensive and thus coming too late?

It really depends on the matchup. In matchups against WW and fast red decks the splicing really doesnt happen that much. But the whisper is just as good as rend flesh and dark banishing in the early game and so I thought as long as I am running the other arcane spells I might as well use the whisper too. As far as the synergy with witness it actually does have some since I can cast it earlyu and then get it back with the witness later and use its splicing. I might actually replace the plow unders with sickening shoals for the uber arcane deck. Anyay the whispers splcing ablity really gets amazing after a death cloud. You now have enough cards in the yard to use its splicing to full effect.

I have not been running this version for a long time but I like it and it is more consistiant than BG decks I have used in the past. I will still tinker with it a bit and maybe go the discard route eventually but for now this is one of the more fun versions I have used.

AtiZ

03-26-2005, 12:46 PM

yesterday i played a "national" tournament in colombia, and i found out that the most important cards a b/g must have are: plow under and persecute, four of each one in the main. playing a persecute in a third turn with birds of paradise or sakura tribe elder, or playing a plow under 3rd turn with both birds and elder or in the fourth with either one of those, almost assures the match. that's what i think at least.

AtiZ

03-26-2005, 12:53 PM

this is my build, by the way.

MAIN DECK
11 forests
9 swamps
1 shizo
1 okina

2 rude awakening
2 kodama's reach
2 death cloud
3 sword of light and shadow
3 kokusho
3 eternal witness
3 troll ascetic
4 plow under
4 persecute
4 echoing truth
4 sakura tribe elder
4 birds of paradise

SIDEBOARD
4 creeping mold
3 choke
2 boseiju
4 cranial extraction
1 troll ascetic
1 death cloud

roachman70

03-26-2005, 01:58 PM

One last comment: The have been several discussions about erradicate with lifespark spell bomb destroying most if not all of your opponents land base what do you guys think about it?

4 Chittering Rats (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11670)
4 Eternal Witness (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11774)
4 Myr Landshaper (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11641)
4 Ogre Marauder (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=12317)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=12154)

4 Eradicate (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=12252)
4 Journey of Discovery (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11441)
4 Lifespark Spellbomb (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11510)
4 Splinter (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=12361)
4 Terror (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11400)

10 Forest (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11295)
10 Swamp (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11293)

Nothing like quoting ones self but I found this deck on line its similar to the build I was talking about. Not your typical BG but man when you either turn your opponents land to a creature and eradicate them all or you turn one into an artifact and spliter them all, the look on their faces would be priceless.
I don't really understand some of the choices I would say diobloic tutor would be a good fit though perhaps in place of the rats.

Elbereth

03-26-2005, 02:40 PM

Thanks for the help DAP, will probably take out the two top for more removal, because although I have always liked the top, having 2 of them doesn't really do a whole lot, and I won my games without ever drawing it.

Nice deck roach, that's a good approach to the current metagame, might eventually try something similar. You put a perfect mix between creature removal and disruption against control, something I have been trying to find a balance between and feel that finding this balance is the key to making this the best deck in the new format. As of right now, since the news of the bannings, I have only lost games to blue and red, mainly red, and feel that we really have something here that could rule standard if we keep on the track we are moving in. Keeps up the good work guys.

oo, and about the whole completely removing the mana base thing, it sounds really awesome and ridiculous against everything but blue, but i fear counters too much to go with a combo deck, but it sounds so fun.

evaaseow

03-26-2005, 04:27 PM

Here is a build that I have been using and finding pretty successful.

Mana Accelerators
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Kodama's Reach
2x Reap and Sow
2x Solemn Simulacrum
4x Sakura Tribe Elder

Disruption
3x Plow Under
3x Persecute

3x Kokusho
3x Death Cloud
4x Eternal Witness
2x Sensei Divining Top
3x Naturalize
3x Terror

1x Boseiju
1x Okina
1x Shizo
11x Forest
9x Swamp

Sideboard
3x Choke
1x Naturalize
2x Rude Awakening
4x Troll Ascetic
2x Oblivion Stone
3x Cranial Extraction

Most of the choices are self explanatory. I find that with the amount of mana accelerators that I have it allows us to keep up with the LD of ponza and get enough mana fast enough to start hitting Tooth with Plows, Persecutes, extractions etc...the reap and sow i have put in for anything with Blue so that Boseiju can get out ASAP as well it doubles up as LD against Tooth which I find key.

Currently debating on more reap and sow, sylvan scrying's(depending on how popular MUC gets), and creeping molds.

One last note, MD naturalize is a must as many decks pack some sort of artifact / enchantment that is killer....

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Avatar of Style

03-26-2005, 05:57 PM

4 Chittering Rats (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11670)
4 Eternal Witness (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11774)
4 Myr Landshaper (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11641)
4 Ogre Marauder (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=12317)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=12154)

4 Eradicate (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=12252)
4 Journey of Discovery (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11441)
4 Lifespark Spellbomb (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11510)
4 Splinter (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=12361)
4 Terror (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11400)

10 Forest (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11295)
10 Swamp (http://brainburst.com/db/search_result_card.asp?id=11293)

Nothing like quoting ones self but I found this deck on line its similar to the build I was talking about. Not your typical BG but man when you either turn your opponents land to a creature and eradicate them all or you turn one into an artifact and spliter them all, the look on their faces would be priceless.
I don't really understand some of the choices I would say diobloic tutor would be a good fit though perhaps in place of the rats.

I tried a deck like this one but the problem I ran into was that by the time you could actually eradicate all the lands in their decks t was too late. They already had all the lands they need, and eradicating the lands in their deck actually improved their card draw. I think the only way to make a deck like this work would be to also include land destruction. unfortunately there is not enough card space for it.

roachman70

03-26-2005, 06:24 PM

Not to take up too much time in this forum on this silly deck but maybe befoul, creeping mold and plow under? Perhaps some moxes or bird to accelerate things as well... then again its probably just a fun casual deck at best huh.

DAP

03-26-2005, 06:34 PM

I don't see it being very competitive at a high level but it could wreck some people in a more casual environment. I definately would add some acceleration and spot LD of your choice. I question whether the Ogre really belongs in this or most any competitive deck.

Elbereth

03-26-2005, 06:57 PM

omg, i just playtested buth's rat deck against tooth and against ponza, and the deck just owns. It is so consistent and totally screws up any synergy your opponent tries to obtain. It is very worthy of further testing. Thanks for bringing it to our attention buth.

NuOnDaNet

03-27-2005, 04:38 AM

played my version of B/G Death Cloud at FNM and ended up going 1-2. here's the decklist again for reference:

4 x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 x Eternal Witness
4 x Troll Ascetic

3 x Abyssal Specter
3 x Kokusho, the Evening Star

3 x Genju of the Cedars
3 x Naturalize
4 x Kodama's Reach

3 x Terror
3 x Echoing Decay
3 x Death Cloud

11 x Forest
9 x Swamp
1 x Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 x Boseiju, Who Shelters All

sideboard:
1 x Naturalize
2 x Sylvan Scrying
2 x Rude Awakening
3 x Plow Under
1 x Terror
1 x Echoing Decay
2 x Cranial Extraction (couldn't get Umezawa's Jitte in time)
3 x Persecute

R1: 0-2 against Tooth and Nail
R2: 2-0 against B/G Phyrexian Arenas, Grave Pacts and rats
R3: 1-2 against U/B with Quicksilver Fountains, Vedalken Shackles, Soratami Cloudskaters, Ornithopters, ninjas and Meloku, the Clouded Mirror

my thoughts so far:

1) @ replicantN6:
the Abyssal Specter experiment hasn't been going too well. i sided him out almost every matchup. mostly to max out on removal like Naturalize, Echoing Decay and Terror.

2) i need to learn to sideboard better. someone H E L P!

3) i definitely want maindeck artifact hate. i feel Naturalize is a must...at the very least 3-of if not 4-of.

4) i think either more disruption is needed, or perhaps card draw or card selection. i found myself casting Death Cloud a lot as a reset button but was unable to draw the goods after that (or had trouble casting them). i feel that if i could've disrupted them more early on, then i wouldn't have needed to reset using the Cloud. i could've used it (Death Cloud) more strategically.

so anywayz, having said that, in the following weeks i'm planning to test these:

out: 3 x Abyssal Specters
in: 3 x Viridian Shaman OR 1 x Naturalize, 1 x Echoing Decay, 1 x Terror OR 3 x Night's Whisper OR 3 x Sensei's Divining Top OR 3 x Okiba-Gang Shinobi OR 3 x Persecute OR 3 x Plow Under

comments/critiques/suggestions are welcome as always.

boilerXmen4116

03-27-2005, 12:04 PM

EDIT: deleted

Side question: Has anybody noticed if their tooth opponents are maindecking 4x Cranial extractions? I have noticed this as a major hindrance to our plow unders. I have been a vocal advocate against cranial (not because its so powerful, but against wizards for every printing a broken costed card). I think the fact that you see tooth, R/G freshmaker, UG control, and any other B/x deck abuse it to its entirety. No real comment other than that. Sorry, i just hate that card. Almost more than 'counter target spell...' cards. Almost.

JMcCraw

03-27-2005, 12:13 PM

@NuOnDaNet

You seem to be going for more of a B/G Aggro-Control than a B/G Deathcloud deck. I'd say take out the 3 Genju's and replace them with Birds seeing as how you'd need to be racing out larger creatures rather than a 4/4 you have to continually sacrifice mana to put out. Also, seeing as how you want more aggro and less Death Cloud control, I'd say drop 1 Cloud and 1 Terror and place in 2 Umezawa's Jitte's. If you're going to take out the 3 Abyssal Spectres put in 3 Nezumi Shortfangs or 3 Persecutes so that you actually have a form of hand disruption.

For your sideboard, I'd say:
1 Naturalize
4 Iwamori of the Open Fist
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Plow Under
1 Persecute
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Death Cloud

@Boiler

Myr Landshaper is an artifact is it not? =)

AtiZ

03-27-2005, 12:37 PM

I don't think the idea of the Molder Slug ("]Myr Landshper[/url] with [url=") is that good. eventually you'll have to sacrifice your own artifact to the same slug, so that won't do you any good.

also, as i mentioned before, the cards that HAVE TO GO in the main deck are 4 persecutes and 4 plw unders, assure yourself that they're coming out. the idea of playing artifact and enchantment destruction in the main is good, i would probably vote for creeping mold though, if your opponent has no artifacts naturalize won't do you any good in the main.

I have a question, is it a good idea to play Rude Awakening in the deck?

roachman70

03-27-2005, 12:37 PM

I think I am going to run wear aways over naturalize to fit with my arcane BG deck. I might even replace the plow unders with 3 wear aways. They help out in almost every match up

evaaseow

03-27-2005, 05:43 PM

I was watching MTGO Standard qualifiers for IPA Sealed Deck during the week and i've noticed that the metagame ONLINE at least has been Tooth, MUC, Ponza/Sligh, and Beacon Green. Obviously with other decks appearing here and there. One of the matchups I find that I have a hard time with is anything with blue. But watching replays of games I have noticed that red has the most devastating card against U that is BOIL. Since it is an instant they respond to them casting Thirst of Knowledge or whatever else the blue mage might tap out for and this spells the end of the game most of the time.

Now with all the land fetching that BG Rock has via reach, STE, Solemn etc...could we not add the one mountain and sideboard boils? I find them much more effective and easier to get into play than choke. Has anyone tested out something similar to this? If so any comments would be more than welcome. Thanks.

Jhemel

03-27-2005, 06:07 PM

Jhemel: Do you take your own pictures? :)

Not really. I have a friend who takes pics for me.

@Jhemel: i think that zealot is nice, but it is a lil slow for the deck overall... the body doesnt provide much but a chump and you still have to pay the extra to activate it. Naturalize in the SB should be sufficient, but if you like the Zealots and have a problem getting them, i have them pretty cheap at my store. just let me know and i can hook you up.

The problem with Zealot is that it costs GG to play. And if you need its ability right away, then you have to use 1GGG. Any smart player would kill the Zealot first before putting down their artifact or enchantment in play. It does slow them down if that's the case, but either way the Zealot is too much green-intensive for a 2-color deck. So I won't play it in B/G.

And I also like Buthrakur's list. Definitely worth testing. :)

Elbereth

03-27-2005, 06:38 PM

fromthelab

03-27-2005, 06:42 PM

And if you need its ability right away, then you have to use 1GGG. that was what i meant by it being too slow for the deck overall... (personally i dont think the card is that good in any deck).

but then again comes the dilemma... we dont have any maindeck artifact or enchantment removal. the main problem would be artifacts (which make WW good and provide mono U's only real threat against us, Shackles) but would Naturalize (or any other sort of removal) be worth playing at all maindeck? the meta at my store has a lot of blue and i play against my friend's WW a lot and there are many times that i find no art./enchant removal in this deck to be a bit of a weakness... anyone have any comments?

also, i am currently debating over my maindeck removal (terror vs. echoing decay vs. rend flesh). i am currently running terror, but there were times i wish i had the others in my hand instead. can anyone who has done some serious testing with these try to make some arguments for which you think is best (not just for my meta, but to run at regionals). thanks.

@Jhemel: are you filipina? just wondering. you still never IMed me either. :( :p

p.s. i didnt see elbereth's post before i wrote this... so dont just think im really dumb or anything. hahaha.

Jhemel

03-27-2005, 07:45 PM

I'm not Filipina. And I can't use any IM service because I'm only online when I'm at work, and there's firewall in the office intranet.

I'd rather run Echoing Decay and Rend Flesh rather than Terror. Rend Flesh kills Nezumi Shortfang and Ink-Eyes. Echoing Decay takes care of Rude.

NuOnDaNet

03-27-2005, 08:07 PM

@ Elbereth:

well...during FNM i saw some rogue decks and also some established archetypes. here're some of the artifacts and enchantments i saw yesterday:

U/G (he wasn't playing as many counters i think): Sword of Fire and Ice (SFI), Sword of Light and Shadow (SLS), Vedalken Shackles (VS), Solemn Simulacrum

U/B (some weird deck using Quicksilver Fountains to screw up your mana): Quicksilver Fountain, SFI, SLS, VS

Sligh: Isochron Scepter, Chrome Mox

White Weenie: Umezawa's Jitte, Bonesplitter, Glorious Anthem, SFI, SLS (and i've seen some mention of Damping Matrix?)

G/B Rats (at least i think thatz what it was): Phyrexian Arena, Grave Pact, Chrome Mox

Tooth and Nail (some version running basic land and Rampant Growth/Kodama's Reach/Sakura-Tribe Elder for acceleration): Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel

MUC (didn't see any, but they would probably have this): VS

G/B Death Cloud: Genju of the Cedars, Jens

anywayz, just about every viable archetype has artifacts or enchantments that can be a problem. thatz why i thought maindeck artifact hate is necessary (and Naturalize has the added flexibility of killing enchantments too). then again mebbe i'm just building/playing my deck wrong. or that i just really REALLY suck at this game (but i love it anywayz).

@ evaaseow:

i'm actually also thinking about using Boil in the sideboard. the problem i feel with G/B is that it doesn't have any threatening instants against decks with counters to help force through our more devastating sorceries and/or creatures by making them tap out at EOT.

NuOnDaNet

03-27-2005, 08:17 PM

@ fromthelab:

i currently prefer Terror over Rend Flesh. itz true that Rend Flesh can take care of Nezumi Shortfang (as pointed out by Jhemel), but so can Echoing Decay. i think the only black creatures of note that Echoing Decay can't handle (off the top of my head; i probably missed some and someone's gonna flame me on it) are Yukora, the Prisoner and Kokusho, the Evening Star. and Rend Flesh can't handle those either (or any spirit for that matter for eg. Hokori, Dust Drinker or Keiga, the Tide Star). on the other hand, Terror can kill non-black spirits, is a turn faster than Rend Flesh, but becomes a dead card against almost all Tooth targets and Jens. but thatz why i maindeck artifact hate like Naturalize in addition to Terror and Echoing Decay.

ultimately, i think this is a metagame call (i hardly see Tooth and Nail or black decks where i play) and personal preference.

NuOnDaNet

03-27-2005, 08:38 PM

damn...i keep forgetting to reply to other people's posts, and my other posts are long enough as it is (although hopefully people won't think itz junk). anywayz...

@ JMcCraw:

yup, am definitely thinking about hand disruption. Nezumi Shortfang: tested with him before and wasn't too impressed, but worth a second look. Persecute: definitely thinking about this since mono-colored and control decks are big in my area. mebbe Okiba-Gang Shinobi? but i don't have enough evasion creatures (although if i add Birds of Paradise that'll work). trouble is no one wants to trade away their Birds of Paradise or Umezawa's Jitte :(.

i'm thinking i'll mebbe do this:

-3 x Genju of the Cedars
-3 x Abyssal Specter
+3 x Nezumi Cutthroat
+3 x Okiba-Gang Shinobi

at least until i find some way of getting BOP or Jittes. thanks for the suggestions.

AtiZ

03-27-2005, 08:43 PM

a friend plays the boils in the sideboard because it is rather simple to fetch for the mountain, the problem though, i that any smart player behind a MUC who sees a mountain in a B/G, knows what is coming, so i don't think they'll tap themselves that easily. the trick is, if you're lucky, to play the boil with birds of paradise or city of brass because the MUC will certnainly be surprised and its lands destroyed.

about the terror vs rend flesh vs echoing decay dilemma: i play 4 echoing decay and that is it for the creature control, i really don't think the B/G has that many problems controlling big creatures because of the disruption created by the plow under and persecute, and if a it were necessary, the death cloud can save you from any giant who bothers you. the echoing decays though, are extremely important against rude awakening and meloku. especially rude awakening which i have found to be a real problem for the B/G, that can be easily solved with the echoes.

conserning the artifacts: i think that the artifact which bothers the B/G the most is the sword of light and shadow, once a creature is equipped with it you'll have a hard time in the match because the ceature becomes practically inmortal and can only be destroyed with the death cloud. yet i haven't found the need to play artifact destruction in the main, i think you can handle any first game with whatever you have, and when you sideboard you can get rid of that problem

Wild Card

03-27-2005, 11:39 PM

but then again comes the dilemma... we dont have any maindeck artifact or enchantment removal. the main problem would be artifacts (which make WW good and provide mono U's only real threat against us, Shackles) but would Naturalize (or any other sort of removal) be worth playing at all maindeck? the meta at my store has a lot of blue and i play against my friend's WW a lot and there are many times that i find no art./enchant removal in this deck to be a bit of a weakness... anyone have any comments?

Play Molder Slugs... and Naturalize in the Sideboard...

also, i am currently debating over my maindeck removal (terror vs. echoing decay vs. rend flesh). i am currently running terror, but there were times i wish i had the others in my hand instead. can anyone who has done some serious testing with these try to make some arguments for which you think is best (not just for my meta, but to run at regionals).

I won`t cut Decay because of numerous tokens (Meloku, Beacon of Creation) and Rude Awakening. It also hits small black creatures.

The real debate is about Rend Flesh or Terror... Terror is strictly better as long as T&N stays in smaller numbers (not likely IMHO) and if MBC/ MBC is not played very often.
Rend Flesh hit no Spirits, which is a problem against MBC (Kokusho, Yokura) and if Spiritdecks should grow in numbers (G/R-Spiritcraft or B/R).

Everthing not hit by the mentioned card can be hit by Death Cloud... (It is nice to presume our opponent can`t play anything due to Persecute or Plow under... but I believe there`s always something going wrong ;) )

I would go with Decay, Rend Flesh an Death Cloud if I should play the control-version of this deck.

fromthelab

03-28-2005, 01:01 AM

@Wildcard: i use Sword F/I in my deck so Molder Slugs main just mess everything up... and im trying to run a more aggro build, thats why i prefer terror. its a lot faster and i dont have that much room for spot removal in my build, so i have to make it count...

@Jhemel: i just thought you were Filipina because we're known to add unnecessary H's in names... i dont know if Jhemel is really your name or if it's just your sn, i was just wondering. please let me know if you find all my direct comments to be personal or annoying. its just that i never knew pretty MTG players existed. hahaha. ;)

Jhemel

03-28-2005, 01:20 AM

@ fromthelab:

I never knew Santa Claus existed either...

My name is my name...

Your direct comments are fine. They're not hazardous to Magic.

If you guys heard about the Paris Regionals thing, B/G was under represented and only got 1 slot in the Top 18. Not to say that it's a matter of urgency, but it seems that people from there are moving away from B/G. Does B/G lack the star power now? Is it doomed just like U/G to go away because Affinity also left?

fromthelab

03-28-2005, 01:50 AM

i dont think that its underpowered. it might just be underrepresented (as in not that many people played it)? if anyone can get stats on the percentage of different decks at that tourney, it might help better explain that fact about it underperforming...

my friends and i believe BG to be one of, if not the best deck out there (and we're all taking it to regionals) for a number of reasons. 1 it is consistent in that it has multiple ways to win (beats + board/ tempo control + "reset" if you run death cloud). 2 it has very favorable post-board matchups (no one can really board anything that will absolutely kill BG unlike TnN - Sowing Salt, Cranial; MUC - Boil; Ponza/ Red - Crucible, Sacred Ground, CoP (does anyone even run those anymore?)). 3 its probably the most fun deck to play.

@Jhemel: dang, witty huh? :p my comment about the "pretty MTG players not exisiting" was not meant to be a joke, but rather a compliment. where are you from anyway?

Wild Card

03-28-2005, 02:00 AM

@Wildcard: i use Sword F/I in my deck so Molder Slugs main just mess everything up... and im trying to run a more aggro build,...

Hm... Was/ is that your build? (I don`t think it is what was presented as aggro-control before... In such a build I would expect only about 12-15 spells other than creatures)

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Eternal Witness
3 Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 Nezumi Shortfang
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Troll Ascetic

3 Cranial Extraction
2 Kodama's Reach
3 Plow Under
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Terror

2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
10 Forest
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
8 Swamp

And your metagame consists of many U/X decks and MUC?

I would probably cut the Reaches, perhaps one Extraction and a Sword for Echoing Decay... (Nothing to search these Boseiju`s? In that metagame?)

... thats why i prefer terror. its a lot faster and i dont have that much room for spot removal in my build, so i have to make it count...

A lot faster than what? Rend Flesh? I mean you don`t play Death Cloud, nothing to kill artefact-creatures (Duplicant, Titan) and no discard (something like Distress/ Coercion or Persecute in addition to Shortfang)... In my metagame you would be in big trouble. Luckily yours seems different... ;)

fromthelab

03-28-2005, 02:32 AM

@Wildcard: nice discussion points all-around... that was my deck but i've made a few minor tuning adjustments since. a few comments though.

im trying to make my build a little more aggressive than normal... the Swords really gives it that punch as you can attack with the Birds as well.

even considering the U.X metagame, would it be wise to waste a maindeck slot on a Reap/Sow or Sylvan Scry? first game im not in such bad shape just as long as i can push a Troll or 2 through.

as for the Terror question, its a lot easier to Terror, then later Witness and play Terror the same turn than it is to Rend... as for Persecute, im trying to stick true to my theme and keep it as aggro as possible. this week however, im going to see what happens if i just drop the Swords (which are down to 3, btw) and put in some Persecute. and though im pretty sure we'll see a few at Regionals, everyone round my way quit TnN once they saw how bad my friends' Ponza ripped me week after week after week after week after week...

Jhemel

03-28-2005, 02:41 AM

@Jhemel: dang, witty huh? :p my comment about the "pretty MTG players not exisiting" was not meant to be a joke, but rather a compliment. where are you from anyway?

Hmm, since you put it that way... Then thanks I guess. :)

I live in Singapore.

Anyhoo, the only deck that can effectively carry Boseiju is Toooooth and Nail, since it has the 8 spells necessary to tutor for it. But if you do manage to draw Boseiju then it's great. I also think it's not ideal to run Boseiju in a deck that lacks tutoring and card drawing, and so it's also not ideal to inclue Sylvan Scrying just to draw Boseiju.

There are other ways to win against MUC. Boseiju isn't the only threat card against them.

fromthelab

03-28-2005, 03:33 AM

good point... i think Boseiju is needed much more if you play Cloud though. and i agree that Boseiju isn't the only way win against MUC...

btw, a question to everyone (that nobody answered yet)... has anyone tried Gaea's Herald yet?

@Jhemel: did you always live in Singapore? what do you do there? (go to school, just work, etc.)

Akroma Angel of Wrath

03-28-2005, 05:24 AM

If you included more card draw the best way to beat them is to drop more threats than they can answer. I find I win if I drop Boseiju or a lot of threats(plow, kokusho, troll, KotNT, cloud, or rude). In U/G and its ilk it a lot of times comes to who can resolve a rude awakening first.

Elbereth

03-28-2005, 07:01 AM

about terror, I run them main over rend flesh only because I fear red sligh so much, and have such a bad matchup against them that I need terror to help out the echoing decays main. I might also bet taking out some land search for vine trellis, and yes, its getting that bad that i'm going to try vine trellis.

@NuOnDaNet:

thanks for the list of artifact threats, I guess if your really having a problem with them then it would be a good idea to maindeck them instead of terror alongside echoing decay. Right now I'll leave them on the board, still not sure whether gonna use 3-4, but I'll probably only end up using the naturalize if i see these threats:

ensnaring bridge (this guy hurts)
blinkmoth nexus
glorious anthem (so just about every ww deck)

other than that, I think we can deal with equipment by just terroring or echoing decay in response to equipping. But I think i will also bring the naturalize in against tooth, something I hadn't thought of until you mentioned it, so thanks for bringing that to my attention.

As for beating blue, i think the best way is via throwing so many threats at their heads that they can't counter them all (perscute, troll, plow, death cloud, genju of the cedars). oo, and also very effective against blue is swinging with an early sakura, and dont sac it until they try to deal with it. Getting the early beats on blue can hurt them late game. I am still testing with boseiju and scrying, but only have them in the sideboard right now, but still feel they are a viable strategy.

Voidillusion

03-28-2005, 08:58 AM

I have this build with wich i've been winning some tournaments. Please comment to see if i can fine tune it:

Lands:

2 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Okina
1 Shizo
10 Forest
8 Swamp

Critters:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
3 Kokusho
3 Troll Ascetic

Sorcerys and other:

4 Plow Under
3 Death cloud
3 Terror
3 Kodama Reach
2 Naturalize
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Nights Whisper

Sb:

3 Choke
3 Cranial
3 Creeping Mold
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Hideous Laughter
1 Boseiju

boilerXmen4116

03-28-2005, 10:24 AM

@NuOnDaNet:

I agree that disruption should be a mina focus of this deck, using terror and echoing decay early and cards like plow, persecute, and death cloud late. However, do you guys really feel that main deck naturalize is necessary? I have played many decks with artifacts and enchanments in them, and found that even the naturalizes on the sideboard were not really necessary. there were usually better cards that I had access too that disrupted their game plan better than destroying their artifacts and enchantments. Usually echoing decay or terror can take out any creature they try to equip, and isochron scepter is too mana intensive, I can always get something by without them countering, bouncing, burning, or whatever they do with the scepter. I just dont feel that artifact hate is that necessary, and am actually dropping the naturalize count on the sideboard to three. Could you guys let me know what artifacts you specifically fear that the other cards in our deck dont have answers too? cause i have yet to face any artifacts like that.
i know this is coming a bit late in the discussion... but i think that the hottest deck online is burning bridges. Ensnaring Bridge really cripple's this decks ability to win vs. that deck. you cant expect to cloud them to death, since if they're not playing bridge, assault, or sliths, they're burning you to the head. red is definitely our hardest matchup. but burning bridges especially because they prevent you from getting hits through.

as far as other artifacts that serve problems... most have already been mentioned. i just would not overlook and think that no enchants or artifacts can touch mighty mighty B/G. we have the luxury at the cheapest removal for anything. whether its decay, terror, or naturalize. you have to abuse it when it serves itself the opportunity.

one last thought... and i brought it up on the G/W thread. but has anybody thought of maybe using Culling Scales to deal with WW, RDW, bridges, or equipment green? i know its an older card, but the constant removal really helps. I thought about it a little bit more last night... and while someone sometime suggested Darksteel Ingot for mana acceleration, the scales and ingot could work simultaneously to prevent them from ever dropping any of their softies. i dont know about the ingot, but the scales definitely could deserve testing.

JMcCraw

03-28-2005, 10:40 AM

boilerXmen4116

03-28-2005, 10:47 AM

If you add the Culling Scales/Darksteel Ingot combo you might as well just switch to U/W since your deck ends up needing to have a few expensive creatures as a kill condition and a ton of spells so you don't end up getting hosed by your own artifact.

Just my 2 cents though.
might i ask even if the deck ran just the scales... how would you be getting hosed by your own artifact? unless you are running shortfang, top, or birds (birds of which i am highly against in cloud based B/G). most of our builds on here do not have permanents with less that 3cc. you can always sac the scales themselves if it comes down to the scales or a witness, or a troll. It was just an idea that needs testing against the right decks.

Just my 3 cents tho.

roachman70

03-28-2005, 05:01 PM

So what is the concensus? Do we or don't we need to run main deck naturalizes for genjus and equipment and shackles and all the other junk?

towarmforacoat

03-28-2005, 05:06 PM

I saw some decklist featuring blue as a splash color. Since I needed to change my B/G build for the new non-affinity metagame, I tried this version out. So far, I've tested it against Ponza, and it won 2-1. Its very easy to splash blue with this deck because of all of the mana fixers like Birds, Mirrodins core, Sakura-Tribe Elder, and so on.

Lands(22)

8xSwamp
10xForest
2xMirrodin's core
1xShizo
1xIsland

Creatures(18)

4xBirds of Paradise
4xEternal Witness
3xSakura-Tribe Elder
2xHorobi
2xKokusho
2xTroll Ascetic
1xMeloku

Spells(20)

4XDeath Cloud
4xEchoing Decay
3xNight's Whisper
3xKodama's Reach
3xRude Awakening
2XDark Banishing
1xHonden of Seeing winds

Sideboard(15)
3xChoke
3xPersecute
2xCranial Extraction
2xOxidize
3xNaturalize

This should be experimented with, as it could be a more powerful version of the already powerful Rock.

Jhemel

03-28-2005, 05:42 PM

@Jhemel: did you always live in Singapore? what do you do there? (go to school, just work, etc.)

I used to live in Europe with my dad. I'm here for work.

Anyhoo, Naturalize maindeck is actually a metagame call. Where I play, Naturalize isn't really needed since WW is the only deck that has enchantments worth stopping. And since Glorious Anthem is irrelevant if WW doesn't have creatures in play, then you could probably get away with it. As for artifacts, Viridian Shaman would be better in dealing with them. Besides, the most used artifact right now is Sensei's Peeking Top, and that card is hard to stop anyway.

Elbereth

03-28-2005, 06:19 PM

I agree with Jhemel, I think the main deck artifact hate is a metagame call, but that in general 4 naturalizes should be on the board. Finally someone else is speaking out against ensnaring bridge. Thanks for backing me up boilerman, and i think that this is the one artifact that we really need to worry about. Luckily i haven't seent too much of it, and will leave the naturalizes on the board for an answer.

localloco

03-28-2005, 07:32 PM

Ive Just Recently started playing B/G and im wandering about alot of things...1st why is no one playing molderslug if youve even read one of the articles there are more artifacts than ever and ones that can hurt you (bridge, Shackles...etc.) and its 4/6 Smasher and defender For only 5 you can cast that on the third turn thats not bad at all...and why isnt anyone playing rampant growth ...its just like tribe elder yes TE is better but rampant growth does not hurt one single bit....and another thing is might of oaks...i really hope you can see the power behind this card...(attack with bird...Take it...MIGHT OF OAKS!) this is very good especially with stuff like troll it cant be bounced and if you cast it on the second turn that could be a third turn ten damage! thats alot considering you have cloud and kokusho....so i dont know just some thoughts heres my list....

3 Kokusho
4 Trolls
4 Birds
4 Tribe elder
2 Molder Slug
3 E-Witness

4 Rampant Growth
3 Kodamas Reach
4 Might of Oaks
3 Death Cloud
2 Extraction
3 Divining Top

10 Forests
10 Swamps
1 Shizo

Well What do you think it isnt to bad ive got another version that plays without tops and instead has another land and two more extractions and thats not to bad so what about this ^^

localloco

03-28-2005, 07:34 PM

eee...oops my bad my side board went all wierd
its
4 Nats
2 Extractions
3 Persecutes
1 DC
2 Plowunder
3 Barters

boilerXmen4116

03-28-2005, 07:45 PM

to locallo:

for starters welcome to BG... you should learn first how to edit your posts, just to avoid double posting (generally bad message board etiquette).

now assuming you read the entire board, you should look back to the first few pages to one of my discussions on mana/land accelerators. basically if you are running a lot of 4 drops, and your deck is based more of an aggro build, rampant growth is for you. otherwise, most control players can afford the extra one mana, especially when it snatches you 2 lands from your deck. in my build, i run 4x elders, and a mix of growths and reaches. you cant deny the effectiveness of reach, yet having extra ability to play a turn 3 persecute is undeniably essential.

people have run molder slug, but i think he's been turned into the 'red-headed step child' if you will. his power is greatly overlooked, and is often replaced with less effective means of removal. in my GW aggro/control build (henceforth being termed 'boilermaker' for my own personal gains) i dropped him due to mana curve issues. his 5cc kinda forces you down a certain game plan, and might not fit very well in an aggro style deck where you would rather have better 5-6cc beats/sorcs.

roachman70

03-28-2005, 08:08 PM

2xHorobi
2xKokusho
2xTroll Ascetic
1xMeloku

too many 2 ofs pick a beat stick and run with it.

I saw some decklist featuring blue as a splash color.

You splash for blue and then only run 3 tribe elders and 3 reaches? Why is that? Also you run 4 death clouds when 3 is more than enough especially if you are splashing blue the BBB is going to be hard to come by. Could you also explain why we need meloku? And what is with ther lone hoden it doesnt really fit with this deck. I'd rather use the space for more removal.

I am not flaming you. I actually like thinking outside the box but this deck seems a little unfocused. If you want to be agro then be agro run lots of good synergenic creatures fewer death clouds, no rude awakeings, and Horobi??????? I dont get it. The sideboard also needs more focus run 4 crainials or none run 4 naturalize and no oxidize. Persecutes and chokes are both good at 3.

JMcCraw

03-28-2005, 08:17 PM

The idea of splashing blue in a B/G cloud deck is to help minimize the effects after a death cloud. Meloku is used to save your lands and generate fodder creatures for you to continue the attack since you "should" have wiped their side of the board clean. The article I first saw it was Kai Budde's Premium article about Post Banning Type 2. It was somewhat of how the 3 honden's and meloku came about in my B/G deck (see page 5). The thing with plow under and persecute going in the main deck is kind of bad considering Death Cloud can do it all and much better at that with all the acceleration available in the format. Basically the premise of the deck is to drop: 1-2 Hondens and/or Meloku and manipulate your board due to the order of text on death cloud to where you end up with a hand with lands and maybe 1 or 2 spells, lands still in play, and some creatures and finish off from there since basically they go into top-deck mode. The honden of choice is generally based off what type of deck your opponent is playing. Against aggro you try and put the nail in with your creatures and the green honden, while against control like Mono-blue you use the black honden or blue honden to get ahead of them.

localloco

03-28-2005, 08:20 PM

ok...well what about might of oaks why doesnt anyone play that?

JMcCraw

03-28-2005, 08:24 PM

Might of Oaks shouldn't be in the deck at all. Usually, most people I see run 2 Umezawa's Jitte's and 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Sword of Light and Dark as evasion of a much more consistent scale.

Skeletorvsheman

03-29-2005, 01:12 AM

Sosuke's Summons could work, with tribe elders it counts as two, but with multiple summons in the yard it is just sick. They are also very good chump blockers. If you run Phyrexian Plaguelord, these come to use even more.

AlaskanMagic

03-29-2005, 01:26 AM

BG must be saved! Not only is it the greatest color combination (of life and death....touching on the dual aspects of the world's most prominant theme, for what in life exists without its opposite, as does in classic literature with the protagonist and antagonist, to the up's and down's of a staircase, to the sensual love between man and woman, to the cold of ice and heat of fire, to the darkest of nights to the brightest of days? Such is the fabric of this existence- void of singular truth but packed with the relativity of the world's keenest minds) but it is the funnest to play!

Tangents left unexplored are territories rich and vast left ignored. A box exists, and thinking outside of it, one escapes the walls and ceilings and floors. Perhaps in a changing metagame, old thoughts must be put up to blame and ideas once dispelled by current spells re-awakened and embraced as do flowers on morning when the sun rises. Give Iwamori a Sword and let him trample upon the peons; ensure the Persecution of the controlling Blue mage by growing rampant in the face of our second move. And give power to the cave dwelling Troll whose dedication to Asceticism will protect it from the target of the enemy. Rely not as much in the Cloud which cannot ensure more than parity, and focus rather on the death of the enemy by aggresively disrupting their most malicious of plans. Extract the very Tooth of the Collusus whose Titans reek havok on our very energy source; then unleash the rats upon the world and let them give us the advantage that they try to claim theirs.

Late night and all is well. Stars blink slowly and I ponder on Magic the Gathering. Cheers to all you thinkers and your ideas and lives. A little love never hurt and was never a waste of time. Evolution breathed life to the moth and made it black so that it blended with the ash of London's new industrial era; so too can your thoughts and ideas save BG, the greatest deck in the world!

(laughing)

Jhemel

03-29-2005, 01:29 AM

I never understood a single word you said. :D

AlaskanMagic

03-29-2005, 01:48 AM

Jhemel: Sure you did, you're smiling aren't you?

Voidillusion

03-29-2005, 01:58 AM

If you put :u: in a B/G Cloud you're killing the deck! There is absolute no need for blue since green and black have all the tools necessary. Regarding plow, it is excelente because you can do it at the 3rd turn and keep plowing, when you do your first cloud your opponent is left with nothing while you still have 5/6 lands in the board and you can still keep plowing any lands your opponent drops. In resume plow + DC simply gives a mana lock to your opponent that in 90% of the times means game and match! Plow is certainly one of the first picks for this deck. Dont forget this is no Rock! This is a Cloud control, if it was a rock it didn't even had to run cloud since it would certainly damage your game as much as it damages your opponents game!

Jhemel

03-29-2005, 02:08 AM

Jhemel: Sure you did, you're smiling aren't you?

That I am. :)

Akroma Angel of Wrath

03-29-2005, 06:03 AM

AlaskanMagic, awesome post. I love the wording! How long did it take you to think that up?

Elbereth

03-29-2005, 06:17 AM

Alaskan, you have proved once again that you are the man. brilliant post, I love it. I also love B/g because of the contrast between growth and decay, so sweet.

anyway, localloco, i counted 15 mana accelerators/ land searchers and no spot removal. that is completely ridiculous, run somewhere between 8-12 mana accel an no more, and also need 4-8 spot removal.

on splashing blue, i see no reason as the deck does fine without it we have enough trouble deciding between the black an green card pools what to use let alone bringing in blue.

NuOnDaNet

03-29-2005, 06:20 AM

actually when i think about it mebbe that Honden idea isn't so bad. but why splash blue for the Honden of Seeing Winds? howzabout just use the Honden of Night's Reach? with that in play and after you play Death Cloud your opponent should be ditching his more expensive (and therefore more potent) spells since he won't have many lands in play. might be worth a sideboard spot to explore.

Morgasm

03-29-2005, 06:44 AM

@ Alaskan: Abso-f*ckin-lutely sick!!! :D Nice one...

@ VOIDILLUSION: you're portuguese, uh?? Where from??

localloco

03-29-2005, 07:22 AM

@elberth
i guess you could say my version is more aggro and i dont like playing the "spot removal" maindeck id rather play a more controlled sideboard and just try to beat down and cloud on the first game its really consistent with second turn troll third turn extraction-might of oaks and its not as bad as you might think...you should try it

Voidillusion

03-29-2005, 07:52 AM

@ Alaskan: Abso-f*ckin-lutely sick!!! :D Nice one...

@ VOIDILLUSION: you're portuguese, uh?? Where from??
Porto! And you are from?

peeps_champ

03-29-2005, 08:25 AM

Yeah, AlaskanMagic. I think just saying there is no spoon would have been way easier, and would have accomplished the same thing. Nevertheless, I've been playing G/b for a while now, and I have to voice some concern. White Weenie is a tough match. I win probably less than 25% of the matches against it. Of course, my friend just might have a really good WW deck (raise the alarm and all that jazz). I'm testing Oblivion Stone to help against the aggro matches, and I've added Vine Trellis to the main. Both seem to be helping against the worst match ups... Red and WW. Vine Trellis has been pulling double duty against Red because it practically nullifies their first 2-3 turns. Also, I can't decide on Troll Ascetic or not. Because I run Hideous Laughter I cut him, but the deck feels like it wants to be able to turn on the afterburners against more dedicated control strategies. Unfortunately, with the addition of the Vine Trellis I'm low on room in the deck. I don't want to drop below 23 land (heck, i'm tempted to go up to 24 for MD Boseiju) Also, the Crainial Extraction debate. I am currently playing 2 in the main to increase odds against Tooth. However, I've delegated Plow Under to sideboard duty. Against aggro decks I hate both cards, but against control I love both cards. I went with the card that could potentially be more crippling. Since I don't run the troll currently, I don't feel that I can take advantage of the tempo advantage that Plow Under creates. I just don't feel like a Death Cloud based deck can force tempo enough. Also, MD Persecute is something I can't decide on. While the thought of stripping away my opponents hand turn 3 is borderline joygasm, I just don't want to play 2 or 3 Persecutes to do it. Of course, I'm probably just being stubborn. I want to put Genju of the Cedars in as well (I just want more beatsticks). Currently I am relying solely on Kokusho to win the game. I want to use more legends because Shizo, Death's Storehouse can just win a game with Yokura or Iwamori (not so much with Iwamori, he doesn't need to much help). I guess I'm just looking for direction. All I know is that WW spanks you unless you find Hideous Laughter before they find Glorious Anthem, and even then the raise the alarm can win the game. Stupid instant creatures. Oh well, I guess I'll bring this to a close. Feedback is appreciated.

Voidillusion

03-29-2005, 08:42 AM

I find dificult to understand what kind of BG you guys are running because i dont have the dificulties you're having! Against WW i win most of the time, with or without Hideous (and i have it in SB)! It's true sligh and ponza are hard matchups, but they are historic hard matchups against green decks of all kind simply because they roast the accel critters and beatdown while doing it! What i still find the worst matchup to be is TNN! This is really a matchup where i start with the clear notion i will lose and rarely happens otherwise! MUC isn't a hard matchup as well but it depends on the draw of both, although very often i can force in a Plow Under or a Cloud and nothing like removal to kill that lonely Meloku and those pesty Shackles (Troll works better though). So if you run what i consider to be a normal BG Cloud control deck with naturalize, terror or Rend Flesh and the other normal stuff it should be that hard, specially against that harmless WW deck that still lacks the strenght to even be considered a top deck! Of course if the jitte that deck has scares you becaus you have no artifact removal then... my friends play versatile decks!

Sirsoosage 234

03-29-2005, 08:45 AM

umazewas jitte is also good vs white weenie, i suggest that in the board.

Elbereth

03-29-2005, 09:52 AM

@peepschamp:

post a list, maybe we could give you some help. I think I run all the cards that you have a question on, lol. got troll main, persecute main, plow main, and just recently have put vine trellis main. also, i'd cut the hideous laughter and oblivion stone for echoing decay and terror, which come out in the early game when ww and red hurt you most, especially if you end up putting troll in your deck, which i would reccommend if you only have kokusho as a win condition.

@localloco:

k, dont run the spot removal, but cut the land accel for something, if your going aggro put in some more creatures or something. Have you played a good red deck yet? cause that match up really makes you realize how much you need either early spot removal or early creatures over that much land accel. and turn 2 troll wont work against red, cause your birds wont live to see turn 2.

Voidillusion

03-29-2005, 10:13 AM

JMcCraw

03-29-2005, 10:52 AM

The reason the Blue Honden is used in a B/G/u Cloud Deck is because it's another way to keep advantage after a Death Cloud. If you're running the Blue Honden and not the Black or the Green you're kind of shorting yourself in either the Control or Aggro Matchups. Splashing Blue is hardly killing the deck, because it DOES have a few tools that help with coping with the Death Cloud that should be wiping your opponent's board completely.

@VoidWalker
My matchup against TnN is almost a joke unless I get the worst top-decking in the history of the human race. If your opponent TnN's and you don't have a Death Cloud in hand I'm flat out bewildered. TnN gets absolutely raped by a Death Cloud since if they're mono-green they should have Bloom out and your forests perform double duty and if they're Urzatron version you should have dealt with their non-basics to stall them at the very least.

DroNugz420

03-29-2005, 10:54 AM

I've actually been thinking about Lightning Greaves...

Sideboard or Main...with Mono-U being the new deck to beat (Tooth is nothing for B/G,or at least in my experience) Lightning Greaves might be our answer. Another is Dosan for Mono-U again. I'd much rather have Dosan over Greaves. I'm just wondering if he should be main, but then I have to thinkof the other matchup where he' be useful.

JMcCraw

03-29-2005, 11:01 AM

@DroNug
Troll Ascetic is the answer for the MUC matchup, it's just a matter of forcing him into play. About the only way he'll see play is top-deck after a giant death cloud or having an opponent stupid enough to tap out turn 2 for Jushi Apprentice eventhough he knows you're playing B/G, or running Aether Vial in a B/G Aggro-Control build.

Sirsoosage 234

03-29-2005, 11:18 AM

nezumi shortfang is quite good against control mathces too

towarmforacoat

03-29-2005, 12:43 PM

You splash for blue and then only run 3 tribe elders and 3 reaches? Why is that? Also you run 4 death clouds when 3 is more than enough especially if you are splashing blue the BBB is going to be hard to come by. Could you also explain why we need meloku? And what is with ther lone hoden it doesnt really fit with this deck. I'd rather use the space for more removal.

Firstly,I am not ONLY running 3 tribe elders and 3 reaches, I also have birds of paradise and Mirrosins core. That is a total of 12 mana fixers/accelerants. With this many, Death Cloud is very easy to come by.

Meloku also goes with the blue splash color. He allows lands to be saved, and creatures to be sacrificed after a Death Cloud. The honden is there for more card drawing, and therefore more oppurtunities to find lands.

The reason for the diverse finishers is because I don't feel like winning the game the same way everytime. Meloku, Kokusho, and Rude Awakening all add to this feeling. As far as Horobi, I'm pretty sure I put him in as a filler, and he could be replaced.

Thanks to JMcCraw for understanding the deck. Everyone else who questions it should test it out and see for themselves that it is worthwhile.

JMcCraw

03-29-2005, 01:10 PM

I do my best =)

The thing I don't get are the people are running Death Clouds and the Plow Under and Persecute maindeck. This just decreases the efficiency of the giant killing machine that is death cloud. Persecute to a lesser extent than Plow Under. If I play something like Plow I don't want them drawing their lands I want to kill their lands so what they draw is completely useless. Persecute you get 1 color which can sometimes be absolutely wonderful, but with Death Cloud you get indiscriminate discard that usually consists of their entire hand. I'm trying to say why waste time playing a 5cc spell when stalling them with an echoing decay/barter/<insert creature removal> for one more turn usually leads you to Clouding away their entire board and those spell slots that used to have 5cc spells now contain things designed to negate the effect of death cloud on your side Meloku, Hondens, etc.

If you're going to run Persecute and Plow Under main in 3 or 4 of's, go down to 1 Death Cloud and just make an Aggro-Control version.

If you want a death cloud deck, put plow under in the sideboard, go to maybe 1-2 Persecutes and then save your own *** from cloud instead of trying to screw your opponent more than you get screwed from casting it.

I probably come off sounding like a jerk, but it's really just how I see a B/G/x Death Cloud deck "should" be played.

Elbereth

03-29-2005, 01:35 PM

@JMcCraw

what do you do against a control deck if you don't draw death cloud? the reason for running the plow unders and persecutes is not to replace death cloud by playing one of those spells, but to give you more chances to draw an answer that hurts a control deck. In my playtesting experience, death cloud is just not enough against the control decks out there because you wont always draw it. plow and persecute are there to stall them or cripple them until you draw into your death cloud. and what if MUC counters your big death cloud you've been planning for? you're screwed. Trust me, if you want game against control, you need more than just death cloud. and running echoing decay/ barter/ terror is good, but not against control. you run those cards for early removal against aggro, and your run plow and persecute for early disruption against control until you can get off the devasting death cloud which is made all the more harmful due to the early removal/disruption.

towarmforacoat

03-29-2005, 01:56 PM

If you think that Death Cloud will be countered, what makes Plow under and Persecute any different?

I realize that they cost less mana, but by the time Death Cloud is played, the Mono Blue player will hopefully be tapped out from Keiga, or Meloku. The B/G deck should race for a Death Cloud that hurts an opponent, even if it is a little later in the game. It shouldn't try to make an early plow under when lands can be destroyed later in the game. That potential plow under mana should be put to use on a creature, something that if resolved, could hurt the Mono Blue deck more.

Persecute is much better than Plow under. It should be a metagame choice whether it is sideboarded or maindecked.

Elbereth

03-29-2005, 02:33 PM

did you read the rest of my post? what if you dont get the death cloud? and the strategy should be against blue to just play so many threats that they dont know what to deal with. if you play just with death cloud, it will be pretty obvious that that is the main threat they shoudl counter. and yes, you're right, you should play creatures that hurt blue, which is why i also run troll. running troll with plow, with persecute, with death cloud is too muhc for blue to handle, and with boseiju they are all even more devastating.

towarmforacoat

03-29-2005, 03:43 PM

Sorry, I forgot about Boseiju. Boseiju should be used with Pesecute, definately, and Death Cloud as well.

I still don't see any room in the deck for Plow Under. An accelerated Death Cloud and Persecute is better. More spot removal like Echoing decay and Dark Banishing is better, not specifically against mono Blue, but White Weenie as well.

Sirsoosage 234

03-29-2005, 04:12 PM

Sirsoosage 234

03-29-2005, 04:13 PM

sorry for the double post, computer was lagging

DAP

03-29-2005, 04:28 PM

If you are going to double post and ignore the fact that you can simply edit your previous post at least say something. Not only was your second post not at all constuctive but it had absolutly no content at all. Are you trying to up your post count by posting stupid crap like this in other threads? You friend are pathetic and I hope you face G/B in the first round of every tournament you scrub out of for the rest of your life.

Santril_MtG

03-29-2005, 05:21 PM

Guess I need to start posting in the B/G threads again...

Anyway, two cards I wanted to get yerall's opinions on:

Phyrexian Plaguelord

and

Grave Pact

Discuss.

ShadowMav

03-29-2005, 05:23 PM

ok why are all of you guys playing this deck? It loses to ponza, beacon green and muc and if you dont draw hideous laughter it will lose to ww.
death cloud is not fast enough to have a huge impact on the game. most decks will either counter the few threats you have, kill your swamps so you cant play your game winning cards or just simply counter them. Vs. green decks, they just accelerate as much if not more than you do so the cloud is useless.

Here we go, let's answer each one of your statements shall we?
1) It loses to ponza: wrong! Let's see now: Brids of Paradise, Kodama's Reach, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Rampant Growth...what are they? Mana accelerators. They laugh in the face of land destruction.

2) Beacon Green: Ahhhhh hahahahahahaha. That's a good one. If you don't want Hideous Laughter, then how about Echoing Decay? Gets the job done for two mana less. I'd say black/green can handle beacon tokens.

3) Mono-blue: One word for you: Boseiju. Persecute, Plow Under, Cranial Extraction. Any of those, and Death Cloud, powered by Boseiju slaps blue in the face.

As for other green decks, the only other VIABLE green deck is Tooth and Nail. And the cards Persecute, Plow Under, and Cranial Extraction can deal with that pretty well.

In conclusion, you should play a deck before you criticize it. In fact, why are you even bothering to say anything if you're asking us why we play the deck?
Hopefully from now on you will think more clearly before just posting whatever pops into your head. Good day sir.

Edit: In response to your post Santril, I think both of those cards could work in B/G, but not the control version persay. A B/G aggro version could definitely benefit from the ability of Grave Pact combined with Plaguelord. I'm not sure what kind of creatures you would use in the aggro version...mainly because I play the control version. But they could work.

Akroma Angel of Wrath

03-29-2005, 05:27 PM

the deck doesn't need death cloud to win. It just helps most of the time. plus vs. sligh, ponza, and beacon we have persecute, which will get played in time to have an effect.

kman10587

03-29-2005, 05:44 PM

2) Beacon Green: Ahhhhh hahahahahahaha. That's a good one. If you don't want Hideous Laughter, then how about Echoing Decay? Gets the job done for two mana less. I'd say black/green can handle beacon tokens.

I'll warn you, they are going to start playing Plunge Into Darkness, so they can just gain upwards of 20 life in response to your Decay or Laughter.

Santril_MtG

03-29-2005, 05:50 PM

I'll warn you, they are going to start playing Plunge Into Darkness, so they can just gain upwards of 20 life in response to your Decay or Laughter.

And so we'll end up using Rude instead of Death Cloud again, along with Kokusho. B/G is versitale enough to handle a little lifegain from the opponent. :)

towarmforacoat

03-29-2005, 06:55 PM

And so we'll end up using Rude instead of Death Cloud again, along with Kokusho. B/G is versitale enough to handle a little lifegain from the opponent. :)

That is exactly what I love about this deck. There are so many win conditions that are available.

Cast Rude Awakening, get them down to very little life if they gained any. Next turn cast Death Cloud and sac Kokusho so they lose even more life to finish them off.

Or, cast rude awakening, then eternal witness, and play it again next turn.

Almost every game I have played has ended in a different way of killing the opponent. (But most of them involved Rude Awakening:))

DaMan12

03-29-2005, 08:51 PM

After a long day of testing against my friends i did fairly well, my most interesting match was agains't MUC where it went down to a 3rd game, and i won because he decked himself :p i shuld of won earlier but got stuck on 3 mana the turn i would have been able to exract the shackles which delayed the game. I found in this matchup I have to side out the Kokusho's or the chost my upwards of 15 life. This makes my genju's extremelly important as well as an early game troll. I also maindeck slugs because my environment is artifact heavy and it is great because they can coutner it but then it forces then to counter my witnesses as well. And if i can drop it no matter who has control of it, it hurts MUC, which i really like, i can also get it off as a surprise turn 3 when they are not expecting it. I find this as a tough matchup and I can win it fairly consistently as long as i play it right.

Um, my friend has a prison deck which actually works well against a lot of decks but mt B/G just rapes it so i wont discuss.

I had no trouble with ponza whatsoever because there LD is only enough to match my accel, and they must draw a lot of it, and even after that it leaves me with a lot more elft then them. I just found this matchup to be easy since they have no counter magic persecute and cranial rape and after that the match is easy.

WW is an interesting match, i run a lot of MD creature removal so it is usually okay as long as i can draw and stall until they run out of steam, at which point i can clear their hand and take over. But i have yet to play against a perfect WW hand.

Tooth worries me because i just don't see how i can have a decent chance of winning game 1. I run Barters and i think im gonna have to MD 2 cranials just to protect against this matchup. I have not played much agains't tooth so any input would be appreciated.

I am going to fnm this week so i will let you guys know how i do, here is my list for now, it is more aggro based...

4x BOP
4x Eternal Witness
4x Sakura
3x Kokusho
3x Troll
3x Slug

3x Genju
2x Cranial
4x Decay
2x Cloud
3x Barter
2x Terror

1x Shizo
8x Swamp
14x Forest

Im not sure about my removal package and am thinking i should run more hand disruption or plow

Santril_MtG

03-29-2005, 10:28 PM

DaMan -- deck itself doesn't look too bad overall, but what's your SB? The way it stands now, you'll probably end up with problems against MRA and maybe UBC.

Anyway, I've done some messing with my deck as well, and I'd like for you all to consider it. :) This is an interesting spin-off that I've yet to playtest, but it's worth a thought, perhaps.

Sakura-Tribe Elder x4
Phyrexian Plaguelord x4
Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker x4
Ashen-Skin Zubera x4
Dripping-Tongue Zubera x4
Eternal Witness x4

Echoing Decay x4
Grave Pact x3
Chrome Mox x3
Night's Whisper x4
Rude Awakening x2

Forest x9
Swamp x11

SB:
Plow Under x4
Cranial Extraction x3
Night of Souls' Betrayal x4
Naturalize x4

You'll notice no copies of Kokusho. Half of you just gave up on me. :)

The crux of this deck is Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker and the Phyrexian Plaguelord. Combining the strengths of those two, the STEs will continually generate land creation, at least 2 every turn, maximum of 8 lands a turn, while the Plaguelord will constantly sacrifice Zuberas, which will be brought back from the grave at the end of turn. ASZ death will keep thier hand empty (at least relatively), while DTZ death will provide me with an army of sacrifical creatures / stompers.

Grave Pact augments this death by providing me with constant creature destruction that even obliterates the nasty indestructables out there. And Shirei...well, she just brings back the fun. :)

My biggest concern that I already see is protecting Shirei. As a 2/2, she's easily destroyed. Further, being bounced by blue will again stop the effect of her reanimations. It's almost making me think I might need Nerouk Stealthsuit for her on the SB, but I haven't decided on that one yet.

Anyway, thoughts, input?

Sirsoosage 234

03-29-2005, 10:33 PM

Here we go, let's answer each one of your statements shall we?
1) It loses to ponza: wrong! Let's see now: Brids of Paradise, Kodama's Reach, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Rampant Growth...what are they? Mana accelerators. They laugh in the face of land destruction.

2) Beacon Green: Ahhhhh hahahahahahaha. That's a good one. If you don't want Hideous Laughter, then how about Echoing Decay? Gets the job done for two mana less. I'd say black/green can handle beacon tokens.

3) Mono-blue: One word for you: Boseiju. Persecute, Plow Under, Cranial Extraction. Any of those, and Death Cloud, powered by Boseiju slaps blue in the face.

As for other green decks, the only other VIABLE green deck is Tooth and Nail. And the cards Persecute, Plow Under, and Cranial Extraction can deal with that pretty well.

In conclusion, you should play a deck before you criticize it. In fact, why are you even bothering to say anything if you're asking us why we play the deck?
Hopefully from now on you will think more clearly before just posting whatever pops into your head. Good day sir.

Edit: In response to your post Santril, I think both of those cards could work in B/G, but not the control version persay. A B/G aggro version could definitely benefit from the ability of Grave Pact combined with Plaguelord. I'm not sure what kind of creatures you would use in the aggro version...mainly because I play the control version. But they could work.
i actually played this deck for a while before i realized that it is not that good, the only time i saw it being good was around states time, and played it at states and went 6-2. (losing only to affinity nutz draws) but rebuilt it for the new metagame and did not do any of the things you say it does vs. these matchups. boseju does not do much vs muc especially, this is why muc plays temporal adept and boomerang and time stop.

boilerXmen4116

03-29-2005, 11:05 PM

i actually played this deck for a while before i realized that it is not that good, the only time i saw it being good was around states time, and played it at states and went 6-2. (losing only to affinity nutz draws) but rebuilt it for the new metagame and did not do any of the things you say it does vs. these matchups. boseju does not do much vs muc especially, this is why muc plays temporal adept and boomerang and time stop.
for starters... if you do not think that this archtype is good, you're first of all kidding yourself... and secondly you may politely excuse yourself from posting on this board. i find it quite unlikely and unprobable that you went 6-2 at states. go ahead and fish up your own results though to 'prove us all wrong'.
finally, you just contradicted yourself in your blue analysis. boseiju is such a threat vs. blue. boseiju IS the reason they run boomerang, adept and time stop. if boseiju wasn't a threat, as you say it isn't... then why wouldn't they run more cost efficient means of answering your threats.
you are quite the joke, and wouldn't mind never seeing you pad your posts again. thanks for stopping by and letting us all know how you feel though.

as for actual discussion... a comment or two towards Santril and his shirei build:
You are worried about losing shirei, but i'm not so sure you have to be afraid. red is going to kill it no matter what you do. they'll burn in response to equiping, or something. so the comborifficism will end vs red... but i'm not exactly sure that should be your priority. the deck without shirei definitely seems plausible. shirei looks like one of those infamous 'win more' cards, more or less. the combo is nice, but not entirely necessary to win. bringing in new ideas is always a plus. even old ideas from old decks, it gives this archtype a fresh face occasionally.

i think we all need to remember how broad this archtype is and how it literally has answers at its fingertips for each and every deck/archtype in the format. instead of argueing what should and shouldn't be in our builds... maybe we should concentrate more and what are the cards that make an impact against other decks. for example: hideous laughter is great vs WW and beacon green... however is useless vs. tooth. persecute is amazing vs MUC, mirror, and tooth, yet too slow for WW and sligh. keep the conversation positive and productive, not negative and counterproductive. negativity just makes people not want to share their ideas.

we have some great writers on this thread, and i'd like to see a few of those make a nice heavy meta-deck analysis. from the BG archtypes' point of view, an in-depth analysis of a current top tiered deck and what beats it. hopefully with enough of this kind of discussion, one will be able to make the ideal list for any kind of meta.

Sirsoosage 234

03-29-2005, 11:15 PM

well for starters there was only 1 rock deck in the top 18 at the france regionals. If it beats all of these decks than it would have made as strong of a showing as all of the decks you claim this deck beats. Also that you say i cant go 6-2 at states, i beg to differ http://webapp.wizards.com/dciranking/details.asp?player=1192415&direct=1&memnum=99046052

http://www.brainburst.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=23639

http://www.professional-events.com/decks/MoxGPD071103Decks.htm

I am pretty sure i have a good enough magic resume to be able to go 6-2 at states.

although i do not like this deck here is a version that did well at the regionals
10 Swamp (javascript:AutoCard('Swamp', '8E');) (3)
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All (javascript:AutoCard('Boseiju, Who Shelters All', 'CHK');)
12 Forest (javascript:AutoCard('Forest', '8E');) (1)

4 Eternal Witness (javascript:AutoCard('Eternal Witness', 'FD');)
2 Viridian Shaman (javascript:AutoCard('Viridian Shaman', 'MR');)
3 Kokusho, the Evening Star (javascript:AutoCard('Kokusho, the Evening Star', 'CHK');)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (javascript:AutoCard('Sakura-Tribe Elder', 'CHK');)

2 Cranial Extraction (javascript:AutoCard('Cranial Extraction', 'CHK');)
2 Echoing Decay (javascript:AutoCard('Echoing Decay', 'DS');)
4 Sensei's Divining Top (javascript:AutoCard('Sensei's Divining Top', 'CHK');)
2 Genju of the Cedars (javascript:AutoCard('Genju of the Cedars', 'BOK');)
1 Hideous Laughter (javascript:AutoCard('Hideous Laughter', 'CHK');)
3 Dark Banishing (javascript:AutoCard('Dark Banishing', '8E');)
3 Eradicate (javascript:AutoCard('Eradicate', 'BOK');)
3 Death Cloud (javascript:AutoCard('Death Cloud', 'DS');)
4 Rampant Growth (javascript:AutoCard('Rampant Growth', '8E');)Sideboard
2 Cranial Extraction (javascript:AutoCard('Cranial Extraction', 'CHK');)
4 Nezumi Shortfang--Stabwhisker the Odious (javascript:AutoCard('Nezumi Shortfang--Stabwhisker the Odious', 'CHK');)
2 Splinter (javascript:AutoCard('Splinter', 'BOK');)
1 Rude Awakening (javascript:AutoCard('Rude Awakening', 'FD');)
2 Naturalize (javascript:AutoCard('Naturalize', '8E');)
1 Echoing Decay (javascript:AutoCard('Echoing Decay', 'DS');)
1 Oxidize (javascript:AutoCard('Oxidize', 'DS');)
2 Persecute (javascript:AutoCard('Persecute', '8E');)

Wild Card

03-29-2005, 11:37 PM

Sirsoosage 234

03-29-2005, 11:46 PM

You have to read more carefully... He never mistrusted you going 6-2... It just wasn`t that kind to ask why some people play the deck and then just telling them they are wrong and confirming that with your record at states and therefore knowing better than all the others here. ;)

Would have been better to explain your experiences in the new metagame and post the list you used to get a productive discussion going.

Besides... Some of the lists from the Regionals look kind of strange to us but if you don`t really know for sure what to expect in a new format this happens I guess.

My experience with Ponza against B/G-Control shows that it easily becomes an uphill-battle if only one Reach resolves. Spotremoval for the few creatures used in Ponza make it difficult to win too.
actually he did in the first paragraph, but anyway, to make a ponza match better i suggest terror since there are not a lot of decks that have a majority of their creatures being untargetable, black or artifact. This will kill all of ponza's threats, natrualize on mox is helpful too, i saw a lot of the regionals decks play art./ enchantment hate main. Also i found it best to name sundering titan first when playing vs. tooth and nail, it seems there is more and more sundering titans in that deck, a lot of modo decks play 3-4 main for the mirror and b/g. Just my thoughts on how to improve matchups. I had to get something constructive in since i realize i have been quite negitive about this deck.

peeps_champ

03-30-2005, 01:23 AM

@ Elbereth

Sorry, I think you may have misunderstood. I do run Terror. Aww heck, I'll just post a list.

Land
1 Okina, Temple of the Grandfather
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
9 Swamps
11 Forest

Damage Control
4 Vine Trellis
4 Terror
2 Hideous Laughter
2 Oblivion Stone

Disruption
3 Death Cloud
2 Cranial Extraction

Hope
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Meat & Taters
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Iwamori, the Open Fist/Yokura the Prisoner/Genju of the Cedars/Troll
Ascetic/Ink Eyes, Servant of Oni/Horobi, Death's Wail

Da Board
4 Naturalize
2 Molder Slug/Viridian Shaman/Troll Ascetic
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Persecute
4 Plow Under

Also, in the random 2 spot I've plugged in Plow Under ther too (of course, I played 4 and just removed the 2 Cranial Extractions) I'm really considering maindecking the Boseiju. It's far to helpful in the MUC match to pass up. No body around here plays MUC though because I have a bit of a reputation for spanking the people brave enough to bring islands into my house. Yeah, people don't do blue around these parts... a fact I take great pride in. Needless to say, the deck is consistant, but it doesn't seem to have what everything else does. B/G's biggest advantage is having trumps. Unfortunately, the trumps aren't enough a lot of the time. Like I mentioned earlier, WW is trouble if they find flyers and Glorious Anthem. Every time I play I just pray to draw 2 Terrors and a Hideous Laughter or Oblivion Stone. Red can just beat your face in before you stabilize (or fight past the LD). T & N just plays a mucho bad spell with a mucho bad critter attached (Sundering Titan... Collossus is a secondary plan anymore). Kikki-Jikki plus Sundering Titan is pretty much the game against just about any deck, and B/G is no exception. U/G is beatable depending on if you can force a threat through. Hideous Laughter and Echoing Decay go a long way toward victory there. G/R doesn't fly so that match is fine. MUC is hard to win game 1, so the board is were that match is won. Neo-affinity is a joke. Without the arti-lands the deck is a shade of it's former greatness. Beacon Green is easy so long as you Death Cloud. If you don't Death Cloud, you'd better be holding Echoing Decay or Hideous Laughter (or in my case have active Oblivion Stone). Sword of Fire and Ice on a troll can be a real pain. I believe that's the brunt of the metagame. I love this deck, but it's tough to win with. I don't care though, I'll play it regardless of how bad it might be. I won't betray the fun aspect of the game to win a few more games... it is just a game... right? Neverthenonetheless, I would like some help. The true aggro decks can be troublesome without enough removal. Like I mentioned before, the reason my friend's WW deck is so tough is because of the Raise the Alarm. Samurai of the Pale Curtain is no picnic either. I would almost rather play against Red... almost.

Wild Card

03-30-2005, 02:06 AM

actually he did in the first paragraph,...

Hm... yeah... my fault... seems I`m struggling more with the english language then I hoped I would ;)

...but anyway, to make a ponza match better i suggest terror since there are not a lot of decks that have a majority of their creatures being untargetable, black or artifact. This will kill all of ponza's threats, natrualize on mox is helpful too, i saw a lot of the regionals decks play art./ enchantment hate main. Also i found it best to name sundering titan first when playing vs. tooth and nail, it seems there is more and more sundering titans in that deck, a lot of modo decks play 3-4 main for the mirror and b/g. Just my thoughts on how to improve matchups. I had to get something constructive in since i realize i have been quite negitive about this deck.

I don`t think the Ponza-Matchup is bad at all... With that much acceleration it is normally difficult for Ponza to control via ld...
Having Naturalize main will make it even easier and is perhaps not a wasted slot in the first events iin the new standard-format... Too many artefacts will be tried at least.

Akroma Angel of Wrath

03-30-2005, 05:50 AM

IN my experience vs. ponza and playing with a ponza deck. The way to win Vs. B/G is to make sure kokusho never hits the yard w/ kumano and kill you with pulse of the forge even if he does hit the yard. Pulse is my THE win card because Slogger is always extracted first, and thus is useless, however that does make me draw into more land d.

localloco

03-30-2005, 06:44 AM

Santril_MtG

03-30-2005, 06:55 AM

Morgasm

03-30-2005, 08:26 AM

Porto! And you are from?

I was born in VN Gaia, and was there until I was 10, Now I live in Covilhã :confused:

I heard your Extended meta is 80% Rock... Nice choice :D

Sirsoosage 234

03-30-2005, 10:33 AM

i play at a jss april 9th and am considering playing this...but im not sure what my metagame is like because its in a different city any deck list suggestions might help...im not sure how im gonna play it because i dont want to play stuff that will screw up certain match ups and then win me others... i have a suggestion, be prepared for muc. That was the popular deck around where i played the jss at and that was before affinity got the axe. If you insist on playing this deck, play 4 troll ascetics main, and a couple bosejui in the board and hope they dont play boomerang. Terror is a good choice now, whatever people are saying about the green genju are incorrect, it is horrible vs muc, if they shackles you forest you dont get it back at the end of turn, same with nexus. I would play a more agressive version of the deck but, i don not have a list.

JMcCraw

03-30-2005, 11:22 AM

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Humble Budoka
4 Nezumi Shortfang
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Eternal Witness
4 Phyrexian Plaguelord

4 Diabolic Tutor
1 Nourishing Shoal
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Naturalize
1 Honden of Life’s Web
1 Honden of Night’s Reach
1 Cranial Extraction
3 Echoing Decay

1 City of Brass
1 Okina, Temple of Grandfathers
1 Shizo, Death’s Storehouse
8 Swamp
8 Forest
2 Stalking Stones
-----------------------------------------
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Persecute
3 Naturalize
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Terror
4 Aether Vial
1 Echoing Decay

What about an aggro build like that? Seems like it could hose MUC if one of those 7 creatures get into play. Shortfang/Sword of Fire and Ice provide a "decent" alternate win condition vs. Burning Bridges if for some reason you can't get rid of their Bridge. Nourishing Shoal is in there to be cast in said Burning Bridges situation if you get low on life. Vs. Tooth about the only thing I can think of is kill their hand with a shortfang and extract Colussus and maybe repeat with Witness for titan if you get time. MUC control side out the birds for the Vial to increase the chance of getting Troll into play and attempt to extract away a win condition such as meloku since a magpie is easy to kill. WW use the Green Honden and Plaguelord as well as Umezawa's to keep their part of the board clean. Just a thought though since I haven't had a chance to go out and test today =|

Wolven

03-30-2005, 11:50 AM

it seems you are in need of an aggro version, so I will post mine.

Land: 23

11 Forest
9 Swamp
3 City of Brass

Creatures: 22

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Eternal Witness
3 Nezumi Shortfang
2 Karstoderm
2 Iwamori of the Open Fist

Spells: 15

4 Terror
3 Coercion
3 Death Cloud
3 Genju of the Cedars
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:

3 Persecute
3 Plow Under
3 Naturalize
3 Echoing Decay (Other anti WW card?)
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

For the obvious questions, Yes, I play Coercion. Its no Duress, but it is easier on the mana then Distress and hits all the important targets. With BoP, it can even get in under countermagic. I play Persecute over Extraction because it is cheaper, and I am not made of money :p. I prefer Iwamori and Karstoderm over Kokusho because they are faster. They will often be able to get in a hit or two before they are terrored/shackled.

All versions of this deck should play 4 Troll Ascetic. Dont question it, just play them.

If anyone can suggest a better card to put in the SB against WW (Yes, it is viable. God help us all.) feel free to tell me. Any other quesions I will answer as they are asked.