White Weenie

[revenge_inc]

Might as well start the thread with a few decklists:


http://www.wizards.com/magic/samplehand.asp?x=mtgevent/ptyok07/t50decks&decknum=42


http://www.wizards.com/magic/samplehand.asp?x=mtgevent/ptyok07/t50decks&decknum=50


(I came here looking for ideas and find the forums wiped) :(
What lessons do we take from the Pro Tour?
What does Future Sight add?

[Demoyon]

What lessons do we take from the Pro Tour?

Avoid playing anything with a toughness of 1. Maybe Soltari Priest as the only exception.

What does Future Sight add?

I can see Knight of Sursi replacing Icatian Javelineers in the deck. With the overabundance of Sulfur Elementals in the format, White Weenie needs creatures that can live through one. Of course, seeing two Sulfur Elemental is just gg.

Gathan Raiders might fit in some builds.

Bound in Silence or Judge Unworthy as potential removal. I still think that Temporal Isolation is better than both of these.

Possible sideboard cards may include:
Aven Mindcensor against UBx Teachings control.
Intervention Pact to combat Disintegrate and other big burn spells.
Lumithread Field might possibly be WW's only out against Sulfur Elemental.

[revenge_inc]

I'm not a fan of Knight of Sursi. Suspended on turn 1 it's a 2/2 hasty creature on turn 4. Decent. In every other situation I find it too slow.

What do you guys think of cutting out all the 1 drops except 3 or 4 Shades of Trokair and replacing them with bigger creatures and Mana Tithes. This would also allow a couple of New Benalias to sneek into the deck.

In a White Weenie and Red Deck Wins metagame, Gathan Riders seems very powerful. However the card just screams "Over-extend" and with many-a-Damnation about is it a good metagame choice? Either way a potential 5/5 for :3: shouldn't be ignored.

Intervention Pact: Main Deck, Sideboard or not at all? How many?

With less White Weenie in the Metagame now, should Sunlance be maindeck?

Should Stonecloakers be cut for more Opal Guardians?

[elatedSeaOtter]

I wouldn't bother with Knight of Sursi - not a bad first turn drop if you happen to draw one on the first turn, otherwise it's too expensive for a 2/2 even if it does have flying (realistically, flanking won't matter too much if it has flying), and waiting three turns for it doesn't seem like a great option either since speed is the key with white weenie decks.

I'm running a time spiral block white weenie with this setup, considering some changes but as of now:

Mana Tithe - 4
Icatian Javelineer - 4
Knight of the Holy Nimbus - 4
Soltari Priest - 4
Whitemane Lion - 4
Griffin Guide - 4
Cloudchaser Kestrel - 2 (two more in sideboard)
Seht's Tiger - 4
Calciderm - 4
Dust Elemental - 2
Plains - 20

I considered two Crovax, Ascendant Heroes or 2-4 Pentarch Paladins for creature removal but the latter are way too expensive to ever be useful in this deck and the former might be decent for longer games but I think it's a sideboard at best. I'm considering cutting the Whitemane Lions, which were much more useful when this deck started as a bounce deck but more often than not they just clutter my hand now.

Soltari Priest, Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Serra Avengers all make amazing front line fighters - Soltari Priests can sneak through with shadow, and a turn 3 griffin guide adds an extra two damage and flying so most likely it will never get blocked, Knight of the Holy Nimbus can force its way through usually thanks to the flanking and the regen helps, and Serra Avengers are amazing for only two mana, and the fact that it's WW won't matter in a mono white deck.

[elatedSeaOtter]

Also, intervention pact might not be a bad choice but as long as I have a Seht's Tiger in my hand I would prefer not to take the risk of losing the game because my opponent somehow prevents me from untapping my lands, plus the Seht's Tiger is a 3/3 which isn't bad for four cast anyway.

[elatedSeaOtter]

A slight revision: I have decided that the Whitemanes tend to be a burden far more often than they are helpful so they should probably be cut. I underestimated Shade of Trokair, especially since with a Griffin Guide it can finish off the opponent fairly early as a huge flier by turn five. I was trying to make Crovax work for the long game but in most situations the extra +1 / +1 for white creatures by that point is too little too late in this deck so I am abandoning it for Sacred Mesa, which seems to work much better. The result, disappointingly typical for a Time Spiral white weenie aside from the use of the Seht's Tiger and the Cloudchaser Kestrels, looks like this:

Mana Tithe - 4
Icatian Javelineer - 4
Shade of Trokair - 3
Knight of the Holy Nimbus - 3
Soltari Priest - 3
Sacred Mesa - 2
Griffin Guide - 4
Cloudchaser Kestrel - 2 (two more in sideboard)
Seht's Tiger - 4
Calciderm - 3
Dust Elemental - 2
Plains - 22

[ScaryHairyGuy]

Dust Elemental??? Onlly 3 'Derms, KotHN and Priest??? No Avengers at all??? Mind, that list is only 56, so maybe there is something missing? I just think Stonecloaker is a bazillion times better than the Elemental.

[elatedSeaOtter]

Sorry, 4 Serra Avengers, I must have forgotten to post that. I did revise again to focus solely on the early aggro game and not bother with the Sacred Mesas. Unfortunately, my new setup makes this no longer block because of White Shield Crusaders, but to make it block you could easily replace those with something else.

Temporal Isolation - 4
Icatian Javelineer - 4
Shade of Trokair - 4
Soltari Priest - 4
White Shield Crusader - 4
Knight of the Holy Nimbus - 4
Serra Avenger - 4
Griffin Guide - 4
Seht's Tiger - 4
Calciderm - 4
Plains - 20

That's about as straight forward as a deck can be, I think, but it should give a strong early aggro game very consistently. As for what to replace the White Shield Crusaders with to make it block..

I would consider adding the Dust Elementals again. I know they haven't been particularly well received because they don't ordinarily see play, but there is not reason when 40 of the cards in a deck are creatures that somebody should have any trouble bouncing back three - in fact, if you have Javelineers out, it could be useful, not to mention that you can block a giant creature with three, do the damage and then bounce the three back AND have a 6/6 that is virtually unblockable to attack on your next turn - what this deck lacks anyway is big damage and the Dust Elementals can be a good source of it. Besides, with two of them in the deck, it's a late game card anyway, and if you're still around in the late game the 6 flying fear may very well save you.

Stonecloakers.. eh. I tried them and cut them a long time ago. I try to add them back in but they get cut again - bounce cards aren't particularly useful as creatures because you have to give up another creature for the turn to put the bounce creature in play, so if you're not using them to save something or to intentionally put something into play again they're a waste of a card and more often than not just end up cluttering your hand (hence my finally cutting the Whitemanes). There is nothing in this deck except for the Calciderms and Javelineers that derive any advantage from being put back into play, and it's better not to count on drawing a bounce card anyway because a lot of times you get none when you need them and three when you don't. In theory you could use them to save things but again, it probably is not wise to base a strategy on drawing a certain card. Almost everything here is a two cast so creatures are basically disposable anyway. Besides, the rule with bounce is that you're not going to have mana for it when it's actually useful, and if you do it's probably better to save it for the Tigers.

[ScaryHairyGuy]

???????????????????????????????????????????
So Stonecloaker is bad because you have to return a guy, but Elemental is good because you get to return 3? As for late game: you are WW, your late game is called shaking the other guy's hand.

[elatedSeaOtter]

Stonecloaker isn't bad, it's just that he's not that good. One more small creature isn't worth the risk of having it stuck in my hand forever. By the time you would draw the Dust Elemental you would be able to use its bounce effectively, and if you can replace a javelineer, a priest and a knight of the holy nimbus with a Dust Elemental you would be getting 6 virtually unblockable damage in exchange for 5 that can be blocked fairly easily (except the priest). The Dust Elemental is the "I need to do 6-12 damage fast and I can't afford for it not to get through" card. I don't think it's bad. Anyway, there is no Dust Elemental in the list that I gave, just four slots being used by White Shield Crusaders that you can do what you will with. Fill them with Stonecloakers if you really want, I never find the Stonecloakers worthwhile though personally.

[ScaryHairyGuy]

40 of the cards in a deck are creatures that somebody should have any trouble bouncing back three - in fact, if you have Javelineers out, it could be useful, not to mention that you can block a giant creature with three, do the damage and then bounce the three back AND have a 6/6 that is virtually unblockable to attack on your next turn - what this deck lacks anyway is big damage and the Dust Elementals can be a good source of it.


Bounce cards aren't particularly useful as creatures because you have to give up another creature for the turn to put the bounce creature in play. There is nothing in this deck except for the Calciderms and Javelineers that derive any advantage from being put back into play, and it's better not to count on drawing a bounce card anyway because a lot of times you get none when you need them and three when you don't.

OK, whatever, but just help me out with how these two statements aren't just contradicting each other?

[MT Stormlord]

why is everyone forgetting the best white card in the block: Intervention
pact

[ScaryHairyGuy]

Because it is far from the best card (even if it is a bit good, it is rubbish here) for this deck, which wins through aggression and just having too-many-guys (especially of the untargetable/flying/pro-red variety). The card that Futuresight gave this deck was Blade of the Sixth Pride (or something): that 3/1 for 1W.

[the_cardfather]

This was Ron Cadier's WW from GP Strasbourg. He went 8-0-1 on D1 and then popped a quick 3 losses in D2. The field was a lot of burn and U/B.

22 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
23 land

4 Shade of Trokair
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 Soltari Priest
4 Benalish Cavalry
4 Calciderm
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stonecloaker
30 creatures

2 Opal Guardian
4 Griffin Guide
1 Fortify
7 other spells

4 Sunlance
1 Opal Guardian
3 Cloudchaser Kestrel
2 Sacred Mesa
2 Honorable Passage
3 Temporal Isolation
15 sideboard

I think dumping Javliners is really a mistake. It greatly decreases your 1 drops and they are actually quite strong against Magus of the Scroll and Rhada. I've been playing a version using Knight of Circi instead of the shades (Not sure on the good/bad of that yet. Shade is better against control and burn. Knight is better in the mirror and against R/G builds w/out stormbind.

With a lot of Terramorphic in the format I have learned to love on Aven Mindcensor. I have actually replaced my soltari's with them and just board them out against red. Getting a 2/1 flyer on T3 while they terramorphic or search and can't find a basic land in the top 4 is nearly as good as a white stone rain. Often it hoses that T4 damantion that U/B depends on so bad. If your mirror is more red you may not want to MD but I do.

I am running 4 MD mana tithe which get boarded out in a lot of matchups but often the opponent will play around it in G2. I like sunlance vs wall of roots and I am testing Epochrasite. It seems kinda janky sometimes becomming a complete beater and othertimes just getting countered on the way back in off the damnation. 2-3 Cloaker I think is the right number. I normally run 3 md and will sometimes board 1 out for hate, but thats just a test.

Hopefully this gives you guys some ideas to chew on. I do like WW and I think it can come back under the right circumstances.

[Real13186]

My current build:

4 Calciderm
4 Icatian Javalineers
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 Serra Avenger
4 Shade of Trokair
4 Soltari Priest
4 Stonecloaker

4 Griffin Guide
4 Mana Tithe
4 Sunlance

20 Plains

[Stormseeker]

Running 8x (Icatian and Soltari) one drops that roll over and die to Sulfur Elemental may not be the best way to go given the dominance (or at least popularity) of RDW. If you are going to go this route, I would suggest some method of increasing your creature's toughness, like Celestial Crusader or Lumin*** Thread. (not sure what this card is called).

[zurmtj]

Its call Luminthread Field.

[jayliminator]

the javalineers are really no longer playable because their effect is not good enough to risk getting nuked by sulfy. I'm only gonna say this once, the priest will always be a 4 of, esspecially with griffin guide.

shade v sursi

It seems to me like shade wins by a nose due to its sheer power but as far as favorable matchups go, it seems even. the decision should probably be a metta choice. what stinks is that if you tried to run both, teferi would run you over. :(

I've decided to try a different aproach with the creature base, i have all the standard creatures and am using shade but i have chosen to play blade of the 6th pride to get maximum dmg in play. I belive that 3 pwr warants the risk to sulf.

Why isn't anyone running temporal isolation anymore? Its the best revoval card the deck has and can just flatout wins so many games.

As far as the lumithread field goes, i believe its a sb ccard but it is the best opion to combat sulfy.

I like the mana tithe tech. but i am only able to fit 2 main between 2 main guardians and 3 isolations. the threat of a tithe slows up so many unwanted spells; plus, because control always risks itself at some point in the match, manatithe main in game one can outright win you the game. :)

[jamesfnx]

Stonecloaker is so good in this deck. You have to have either him or Whitemane versus Tendrils, and Stonecloaker a) flies, b) brings an extra point of power to the table, and c) eats graveyards. Teachings? Get out. Tarmogoyf decks? They can't deal with double Stonecloaker at all, as you'll always have a blocker for their best guy and you will devour their graveyards. Mirror? Bounce your guy that's gotten Temporal Isolationed (after combat, with damage on the stack for extra fun).

I ran 2 Stonecloakers on the way to Q'ing yesterday in Seattle, and went 6-0 vs. 'Goyf variants. All day I wish I had a third one.

[jayliminator]

you Q'd for nationals playing ww!?!?!? Frigg'n Sweet!!! Good luck at Nats and win one for the little guys!!

[jamesfnx]

you Q'd for nationals playing ww!?!?!? Frigg'n Sweet!!! Good luck at Nats and win one for the little guys!!

No, I Q'd for PT Valencia running WW. The PT is Extended, I have no idea what I'm running yet.