Rules Conflict (Demise & Levia-Dragon)

[CardOfTheHeart]

This has been nagging me for a while, and I just found out that I STILL can't post to the UDE Judge List despite the fact that I'm a LV1 Judge and subscribed to the list. (I may have to send Ian a message about this, later.)

So, I'll bring this up, here.

Now this concerns "Demise, King of Armageddon" and "Levia-Dragon - Daedalus."

Levia-Dragon - Daedalus
By sending "Umi" on your side of the field to the Graveyard, destroy all cards on the field except this card.

Demise, King of Armageddon
This card can only be Ritual Summoned with the Ritual Spell Card, "End of the World". By paying 2000 Life Points, destroy all cards on the field except this card.

Note that I've underlined the common phrase in the two effect texts, which is part of the reason why I believe there is a conflict of rules in these two cards.

First off, look at this Levia ruling:
When "Book of Moon" is chained to "Levia-Dragon Daedalus"' effect to flip it face-down, the effect still resolves, but "Levia-Dragon Daedalus" is destroyed by its own effect, since it's no longer "this card", it's just "a card".

Now let's look at this Demise ruling:
If an effect is chained to "Demise's" effect to flip "Demise, King of Armageddon" face-down, he is still not destroyed by his effect.

Okay, so one monster is destroyed by its own effect when flipped face-down, but the other is not. Am I the only one that thinks this is a problem?

Think about it. The costs to activate the effects are different, but the effects are EXACTLY THE SAME.

You can't say there's something special about Demise's effect that protects itself when flipped face-down; it's the same effect as Levia-Dragon.

You can't really say that their costs have anything to do with this.
'One card makes you lose a card, but the other makes you lose Life Points; so we (UDE) better make sure that the Life-Point investment is protected more than the single-card investment.' Seriously?

o_O

Give me a break.

:confused:

So, can someone explain this to me?

[Rat Tamer]

That's really strange. And I thought neither of their effects would activate if they where flipped face down, because the reverse chain thing. Book of Moon would then activate first, meaning they are Face-Down, and therefor can't activate their effect. O.o

But I'm not sure on this question. I think that my last statement made this sort of mute, but I'm not sure my last statement was right.

But I think it might be something else that we're not thinking of. Maybe it's the Life Points thing, maybe it's something else. I think it might be Spell Speed though, isn't Ritual a different Spell Speed than Effect? That's the only thing I can think of causing this..

[CardOfTheHeart]

No, the type of monster doesn't have any effect on Spell Speed. Both are Ignition Effects (Spell Speed 1).

[K_Guy]

I would say that neither was destroyed and their effect would still activate. Since you have peyed a cost, the effect must be sepcifically stopped by some card ( Fx. Solemn Judgement ).

And i think they wouldn't be destroyed because :

destroy all cards on the field except this card.

If i'm not mistaken, it's still the same card when it's face down. And flipping a card fce down doesn't negate half an effect.

Those are my thoughts.

[masterwoo0]

This is one of those times where Konami either made an effect that is a total exception to the rule, or, sometime in the future, expect ONE of these two monsters to be changed to match the other.

There isnt going to be an explanation from the Judge List, no matter how many times you send it, to explain why Demise and Levia are different.

Just continue to Rule accordingly, to what we have been given.

On a side note, be prepared to email at least every other day about your access. It took me almost 6 months, and I started out with access from the very beginning of the UDE List, it just suddenly "stopped".

[CardOfTheHeart]

So, for future reference, which way do you think Konami will go?

[Seraphon]

That's really strange. And I thought neither of their effects would activate if they where flipped face down, because the reverse chain thing. Book of Moon would then activate first, meaning they are Face-Down, and therefor can't activate their effect. O.o

You're getting activations and resolutions confused. When you activate their effect, it forms chain link 1. Book of Moon forms chain link 2. Assuming no further chaining, Book of Moon flips the monster face-down. Chain Link 1 will still resolve just fine, as it doesn't matter that the effect's source has been put face-down, or even removed from field.

[masterwoo0]

So, for future reference, which way do you think Konami will go?It's my personal opinion that since Demise is the most recent card made, it will most likely be the template for changing Levia's effect, although it could go either way.

Realistically, you can't say that one card becomes "just another card" because it gets flipped face-down, but the other doesn't. It doesn't make sense no matter how much you try.

The only other explanation is a poor translation as far as the text and ruling for Demise goes.