[DIS] BR Aggro-Control

[wyatt290]

i tried remand and it didnt work it was really badd.

[Khaos2000]

I was thinking that maybe (I have not read all the pages of this but I did read a good 30 of them) that against magnivore and other limited kill condition decks, would siding out Seal of Flame for Seal of Doom be a good idea? The 3b for Grave Pact looks hard to swing but, it might be an option as well with the right amount of color fixing? There are a number of dual options out there and if you use them mostly for red then even a blood moon isn't going to thrash it. Or shouldn't I suppose.

En-Vec is a pain, no doubt about it. I didn't see an updated deck list, but what about that Pro-white jump knight? Stromgald crusader I think it is? At least it wouldn't be able to be answered as easily either. Pro-white means no fetters, no condemn, etc.

Apologies if this has already been discussed recently.

[D3@D]

If they had re-used Madness with TS, Hellbent would be UBER.

(Not so relevant, but had to say it anyway)

[Fireburns]

We aren't sure if they haven't re-used Madness. But we do know about flashback which does give the avatar some life if it is only a little.

[Ilidan]

t madness and flash thing isn`t much defren`t ?? or ?

[wyatt290]

tourney report!

round 1:
2-1 beat skies

round 2:
2-0 beat grull aggro

round 3:
0-2 solar flare( to same person i have lost last 6 weeks in a row playing s-flare)

round 4:
2-0 U/G critical mass

overall i came second still very impressed with the deck.

[littlewoodg]

We aren't sure if they haven't re-used Madness. But we do know about flashback which does give the avatar some life if it is only a little.
"orb of insight" gives 10 hits for "madness", 23 for flashback

@Ilidan: here's the comprehensive rules version:

"...Madness is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with madness is in a player’s hand. The second is a triggered ability that functions when the first ability is applied. “Madness [cost]” means “If a player would discard this card, that player discards it, but may remove it from the game instead of putting it into his or her graveyard” and “When this card is removed from the game this way, until that player passes next, the player may play it any time he or she could play an instant by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. When the player passes next, he or she puts this card into his or her graveyard....”

"...Flashback is a static ability of some instant and sorcery cards that functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard. “Flashback [cost]” means “You may play this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack..."

[D3@D]

Nice, now we, know both Madness AND flashback will be coming. we just have to wait and see if the cards are of any use to us.

If so, this deck surely has some potential.

[Rakavolver]

Rune Snag is already an impediment to this archetype. It will surely need help. We who have played it know how much we suck up our mana. Which is good. And bad.

Heya, congrats, Wyatt. Glad you beat Skies.

BTW, have you seen or tested against WW/u, which won Singapore Nats, and that you can see by clicking here and going to the bottom of this article by BDM ? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd243)

Many good decks out there. Too many. I for one will NOT lament the loss of Gifts Ungiven and Sensei's Divining Top. The loss of Jitte will affect many. If they bring back Sword of Fire and Ice though, all is forgiven. :-)

[wyatt290]

Heya, congrats, Wyatt. Glad you beat Skies.

BTW, have you seen or tested against WW/u, which won Singapore Nats, and that you can see by clicking here and going to the bottom of this article by BDM ? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd243)

Thank You.

The list i played against was very simalar to that decklist i must admit it was a tough match i had a very hard time with his ghostly prisons and grand arbiters after sideboard made everything so difficult the only thing he swung with all games were a 2/2 flier while my guys just sat back looking up at the arbiter.

game 2 i owned him a actully drew nekrataal for his pride of the clouds who was a 3/3 on turn 3 and luckily he didnt draw any of the 8 counterspells in his deck. I decided i would race him out eventully it got to basiclly him at 2 tapping at out for glorious anthem he thought he had game then hit//run'ed his 2/2 right out and won.

game 3: basiclly a replay of game 2 but with no glorious anthems.

[D3@D]

Will there be any decent burnspells in TS?

[wyatt290]

Will there be any decent burnspells in TS?

Good question!

You tell me. :p:cool::rolleyes:

( cough* www.mtgsalvation.com * cough)

[D3@D]

:P Lol, Ive heard some rumors, anyway, Ill inform you guys if I find something. Incase YOU havn`t.

[wyatt290]

:P Lol, Ive heard some rumors, anyway, Ill inform you guys if I find something. Incase YOU havn`t.

Back MaRo said something about a burn spell for 1 :r: mana that dealt 5 damage maybe its 3 to them to to you or sometinhg along the lines of something like that but its always nice to hear new burn since im a heavy red player.

[Rakavolver]

As a heavy red player you should know that when they're done neutering blue the next color they turn to is red. Which kinda makes sense if the other three colors are to have any kind of chance.

[wyatt290]

As a heavy red player you should know that when they're done neutering blue the next color they turn to is red. Which kinda makes sense if the other three colors are to have any kind of chance.

ummm rakavolver im sorry but i dont follow blue has never really been a power color theyve always toned it down so that blue based control isnt too powerful.

i can remember shackles control and acadamy but those were only time when blue kinda needed to be somewhat neutered.

red isnt a power color if anytinhg theyre trying to make red good for ex/ char,mogg fanatic,incinerate,magma jet,lightning helix those were all excellent spells and i think that if theyre to neuter a color it should be green and incorperate some card drawing into mono green and do a sudden color pie change.

[Rakavolver]

Wyatt, you don't remember THE Deck or Draw-Go, do you? Academy was a mono-blue/arty fast Combo deck. If you weren't in Magic before 1998 I understand. On the other hand, you might remember UW control in Mirrodin Standard.

Wow, thanks for the link. The split second mechanic makes me want to go back to Gruul, yet Grapeshot makes me want to stay right here. And do Gruul as well.

Question for the Mods: Can we talk about these cards yet? I mean, if it's published in Scrye, does that make it "officially re-leased?," or doesn't it?

Sigh, I don't know. I'll just make that my one and only reference to Time Spiral, a set possibly best described as "Rosewater Gone Wild." Storm is coming back? Sheesh. OK, that was two. Sorry.

OK, the following totally sucks. If "Global Economic Pressure" (meaning: bombs over health care) is so bad, then WHY did they make Coldsnap !?!?!?

"Due to global economic pressures and certain cost increases, Wizards of the Coast will increase the Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of its front list and backlist Magic: The Gathering® Trading Card Game effective September 22, 2006. Accordingly, Wizards will increase the price of its Magic: The Gathering Online® products effective October 6, 2006.

The MSRP increase will affect the following products:

Booster Packs: $3.99
Tournament and Theme Decks: $12.29 (excluding 9th Edition Core Set Theme Decks)
Fat Packs: $34.99
"

[D3@D]

that suks.. I think Blue is pretty power in Vintage, but in standard, Green is the most powerful color at the moment. IMO

Red has been underpowered lately, but I hope they are doing something about it. (as we have seen some sign of: Char, Lightning Helix etc.) in standard.

[wyatt290]

wtf? did someone delete my post??


hmmm this is weird

[Rakavolver]

I think Azorius is the best color, followed by (a tie!) Simic and Rakdos. Yes, I consider each guild a color, thanks to the ability to play EIGHT dual lands.

ABsolutely they saved the three best guilds for last, IMO. Of course Izzet and Orzhov aren't terrible at all.

What little respect Rakdos has gotten is probably because of the old-school mentality (which was quite accurate back in the day) that Red/Black (that's what we used to call Rakdos) didn't start kickin' till turn 4, by which time Aggro had you half a turn from dead, and Control was about to take ...um, Control, if it hadn't already.

Not anymore! Onward, Rakdos soldiers!
(sounds sacreligous, ... but, whatever).

We have some most excellent 2cc and 3cc cards now, and those two were always the work-horses of any good Aggro-Control deck.

[wyatt290]

Im gonna have to agree with rakavolver except i really think that grull should be in there not to montion stomping ground + kird ape = :D.

turn 1 kird is sorta frightening imo.

[Rakavolver]

I'll meet you halfway and say Gruul is 6th...um, maybe 7th. The problem with Gruul is it got an AMAZing spell in Guildpact with Burning-Tree Shaman, and a good board card in Rumbling Slum, but what else did it get? Seal of Fire in Dissension? What else? I'm sure there's other stuff, but consider what it got in comparison to Orzhov and Izzet.

As far as the first four guilds go, I'm glad to see Boros making a comeback. I still wouldn't put it in the top 5, anymore than I'd put Golgari, Dimir or Selesnya. But they're good too. All the guilds are breakable if you build them right. Or splash a third color, like blue in Rakdos. ;-) Or not.

[D3@D]

Its BR/RB RAKDOS all the way with these new slivercritters to play with:)
Madness + Hellbent + Flashback = !?!

[Galvatron]

don't get your hops up yet Dimir ar know for being secretive an manipulative
we ar the LA_LE_LU_LI_LO of magic you cant escape us.

[wyatt290]

punctuation is your best friend galvatron.

anyway my side project for slivers begins :D

[Rakavolver]

The problem with Gruul is it got an AMAZing spell in Guildpact with Burning-Tree Shaman, and a good board card in Rumbling Slum, but what else did it get? Seal of Fire in Dissension? What else? I'm sure there's other stuff, but consider what it got in comparison to Orzhov and Izzet.



Look, I must be losing it, I'm quoting myself. :eek:

Just popped in to say that Gruul also got Giant Solifuge, but whatever, I still stand by what I said.

@ Galvatron - Dimir is fine, oh Mr. Battle of Wits. Take your knowledge and apply it to a Glimpse the Unplayable Milling deck, and tell us how you do.

@Wyatt - Slivers, flashback, yah, yah, Rakdos will go through many changes I'm sure, so will all the other guilds 'cept Azorius (the King). Then again, with grave yard manipulation .... that's not good for Uw Control.

When is the Pre-Release? Later this month, right?

[wyatt290]

Yeah the new sliver is essentially a sedge troll but with bonuses for others that come into play.

Im not sure if he will make into here or not though, what do you think rakavolver?

[Rakavolver]

Does anyone know what other Slivers besides Sledge Sliver will be published, IF any?

Dies to Wrath of God, but so does everything else (including Haakon ... which doesn't care .... cheeky monkey, hell, maybe we should run Haakon, just for itself). Can survive a Sunscour though if played properly (Blood Crypt or Swamp left standing).

Yup, good in Rakdos. I guess. Depends on the Rakdos. Is it...
- Stupid Red Burn with the Dark Confidant cherry on top known as Burning Sligh? I don't think so.
- Mostly Black Rakdos-Discardo-roonie? Maybe. But such a deck dies to aggro.
- Intelligently designed aggro-control meaning a slightly more black-than-red first game deck with the transformational sideboard i.e. black discard for control and redburn(Burninator!)/black critterkill for Aggro? Probably.

But whatever, the loss of Needle and Extraction in a deck like Rakdos should hurt, Ivory Mask hurts Burning Sligh, so my opinion is a very definitive...

I don't know. Let's see all the cards first. About 18 days away till the pre-release?

[kby]

rak.... are u replying to your self again? that was twice on 1 page : ) or do you have skizophrenia(i know thats spelled wrong)..multiple personallitys(this 2)

and, if ur playing against a deck w/ WoG...then play discard, there is so many viable options, or do what i like to do, put out enough creatures that they will have to wrath, and then just keep em flowing w/ the rest in your hand. Only bad players lose to wrath

[Rakavolver]

rak.... are u replying to your self again? that was twice on 1 page : ) or do you have skizophrenia(i know thats spelled wrong)..multiple personallitys(this 2)

No, I don't have deja vu, do you? No, I don't have deja vu, do you?

Actually I do suffer from triple-split personality syndrome, namely "me, myself, and I," aka Id, Ego, and Superego. I think we all suffer from that, 'cept some of us like me recognize it well enough, but possibly not you.

In short, we're all nuts, IMO. It's just a matter of degree.

Schizophenia, Acute Psychosis, and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder are quite serious. A dear friend of mine suffers from two of those. Please don't make light of them. I'm sure you didn't mean to, it's just that there are 1,000,000 schizos in America, and they can function normally, but when some to forget to take their meds and "go off," it is the police who have to deal with them usually. Nothing funny about that. Ask your local cop. I know a LOT more about mental health than I'd like to, because of my friend.



and, if ur playing against a deck w/ WoG...then play discard, there is so many viable options, or do what i like to do, put out enough creatures that they will have to wrath, and then just keep em flowing w/ the rest in your hand. Only bad players lose to wrath

Not true. Good players lose to Wrath too. Bad players lose faster though. :)

Well, like you said in so many words, it's a matter of NOT overextending, i.e., not playing more than two critters at a time, vs UW. Not a problem, Rakdos naturally flows that way.

[Fireburns]

There is no need to have more than 2 creatures out at a time with B/R. All of our creatures demand to be killed. So just having 2 out if they are not playing spot removal, demands a wrath of god, allowing you to play the other ones you have in hand.

[Rakavolver]

There is no need to have more than 2 creatures out at a time with B/R. All of our creatures demand to be killed. So just having 2 out if they are not playing spot removal, demands a wrath of god, allowing you to play the other ones you have in hand.


OMG those first two sentences were SO good, SO well put, and and SO accurate, I'm adding it to my signature. :)

The rest was good too, but those first two were like reading Tolkien. Almost.

[kby]

well, going back to wrath.... I have the ability to hover my hand over the deck... then call out a card.... and then draw that card.... idk why it works, but it happened 20+times over my playing time :)

--now, did i ever draw a wrath when i needed... well let me explain--

im losing next turn to 10dmg in creatures, i have cards in hand, but nothing that would help. Some kid in the corner of the table says, a wrath would help. So i say, why not. <<hover hand over decK>> and say, well im drawing it next turn. <<draws card>> opponent see's the wrath and basically scoops :)

[Eternal Wizard]

Really............. You top decked a card you needed . WOW, you may be the only magic player to ever do that.

Hey Rakavolver: Have you tried the burning sligh build? I don't find Ivory mask to be that big a deal for me. I run 4 Genju and 4 Solifuge so if they drop a Ivory Mask my burn just switches jobs for going to the dome to clearing a path. Solifuge gets by spot removal and Genju gets past sorcery speed junk. Guess my point is that the Stupid Red Burn with a Cherry is very good IMO.

Ciao.

[Zardnaar]

I was taliking about burning bob builds a while ago on this thread after a local player built it up. It was nasty but one of the other players worked out how to beat it before the pther player worked out how to counter that. It was Bob+ Solifuge 28-30 odd burn spells.

[D3@D]

The deck should utilize some discard as well as burn together with its critters. Im not for running only burn/critters and bob.

Im think only 4-6 slots with handremoval or something.

[Rakavolver]

Guess my point is that the Stupid Red Burn with a Cherry is very good IMO.

Ciao.

It is very good. No, I haven't tried it. Do I have to? Is it possible to build a simpler deck? It's not like it's UWg, which takes considerable playtesting to truly appreciate. Btw, I called it Burning Sligh, but I think the correct name is Burning Rakdos. Whatever.

Basically, when a new set comes in and things change, I look at two bookends - The slowest, most powerful control deck, which I think is UWg, and the fastest deck, usually MonoRed, which in the past few seasons .... didn't really exist, until Burning Rakdos. The fastest deck was Heartbeat, alas, or Ideal with a godhand. Combo decks! Yuk.

The problem with anything fast, usually monoRed or mostlyRed, is they die horribly after boarding. Their first game winning percentages are great though.

Control's problem is it has to survive long enough to, um .... take Control.

I'm afraid I've been stuck with these bookends since Ravnica. I want to build Aggro-Control decks. I think Rakdos affords that, but I don't see myself having a lot of time to explore currently.

Ivory mask not a problem? That's great news, but you know UWg also has permission, CoP:Red, etc. Always, the answers for the answers to the answers, etc. What fun.

[Eternal Wizard]

No you don't have to try it; and as for simpler.... Ummmm. Mono Green Beats, yeah there is a simpler deck. I did not mean to imply that you did need to devote time to test it just that it is a very good deck.
Yeah, playing around Ivory mask is not that tough but CoP red would deffinatly Suck. As for permission decks, I've had little problem with them as either an early Bob or Genju is almost always game. Bob gets wrathed all by his lonesome (bounce seems to be on the decline) a lot. Loxodon is the bigest threat as my deck hates to see life gain; but since I run a full set of Flames at least I have answers.
Dunno, just touting the virtues of R/B burn (whatever it's called).

Ciao

[wyatt290]

wow sorry i wasnt around school started again.

Anyway im working on an aggro version of this deck the deck thats plays the new sedge troll hes very good and hes the kinda thing that this deck needs to actully make the aggro build work IMO.

rakavolver whats your rakdos aggro decklist?

edit weird me and rakavoler had posts in the same minute lol.

[Rakavolver]

Flames goes away with Kami block, alas. I really don't know how to build Rakdos in TS season, don't care how its built in Coldsnap. It will lose Jitte, is that huge or fine? I can make a case either way. Yup, nobody should have a problem vs Control, as black and red are UW's worst nightmare, and if lifegain gives one a headache, there is nothing to stop Rain of Gore from re-making my sideboard.

[Rakavolver]

I'll end this post with my Coldsnap list, but to perfectly honest, don't play it without testing, and I haven't tested it. It's basically my Dissension Standard list, with Baubles added. I built it before the Counterbalance/Top/Sheets and Haakon Gifts crazes, so I haven't had time to think how it would fare against them. Since they both die soon (Oct. 20), and Haakon will live on in some form, shrug, we'll see.

I had to take out Seal of Fire from my Dissension version to fit in the Baubles, and cut back on a land and 2 Hands of Honor to fit in 4 Stromgald Crusaders. I would like to at least board Lightning Storm and Deathmark but haven't the room. Rain of Gore remains in my third pile in case Wizards goes bat**** insane on lifegain, or decks with lifegain win alot.

Well like I said, it's untested but have fun with it.

Coldsnap Rakdos, one dude's take (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=49732)

4 Frenzied Goblin
2 Giant Solifuge
2 Hand of Cruelty
3 Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
3 Plagued Rusalka
3 Rakdos Augermage
4 Rakdos Guildmage
4 Stromgald Crusader

3 Char
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Rise/Fall

4 Blood Crypt
4 Mountain
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4 Sulfurous Springs
5 Swamp
1 Tomb of Urami

3 Dark Confidant
1 Demonfire
2 Giant Solifuge
3 Pithing Needle
2 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Umezawa's Jitte

[wyatt290]

what?!?

have you ever actully played Rakdos before,? or have you just been giving us some of your intelligent insight?

[Fireburns]

I believe that is his Aggro version. You did ask for one. I am still playing the discard heavy version and haven't changed a thing yet. I still want to see the rest of the TS cards before i start with major deck changes. Or trying to come up with a different version of the deck.

[wyatt290]

yeah sure please post it Fireburns aggro is definitly looking like an option now.

p.s imo this is kinda kool Rapheal Levy answered my question is his new "ask the pro" segment.

[kby]

i would post my deck, but ill wait till i have tourney tested it. ITs looking promising, as during testing, i have yet to lose a match, and it was very consistant.,

[wyatt290]

jaaya ballard task mage
1:r::r:

1:t: discard a card(PROBLAST)
1:r::t: discard a card (INCINERATE)
5:r::r::t: discard a card(INFERNO)

2/2

DEFINITLY A 4 OF IN EVERY RAKDOS DECK!!!!!

shes insane imo.

[Rakavolver]

Is she a legend? Sure sounds like it. I like her, even if a toughness of 2 doesn't thrill me. I have enough of those already.

Yes I play Rakdos. Not in the last 3 weeks though. I told you, I'm sitting Coldsnap season out. To paraphrase my ADG frat brother (different college and years) Stephen Colbert: "Coldsnap, you are dead to me."

[Fireburns]

Yeah shes a Legend. And I have always loved her.......... I do wish her card was all powerful and dealt 20 damage to each player and destroyed all perms in play, but hey you can't always get what you want.

Now that they have brought back spellshapers the Madness ability has to be worthwhile. Looks like the Avatar is shaping up to be a beater.

As for her being a 2/2 we use the bloodwitch and shes a 3/1, and when i 1st saw her i thought she blew nuts.

[wyatt290]

does anyone have an aggro list they wanna post as well.?

[Rakavolver]

Yeah shes a Legend. And I have always loved her.......... I do wish her card was all powerful and dealt 20 damage to each player and destroyed all perms in play, but hey you can't always get what you want.

Now that they have brought back spellshapers the Madness ability has to be worthwhile. Looks like the Avatar is shaping up to be a beater.

As for her being a 2/2 we use the bloodwitch and shes a 3/1, and when i 1st saw her i thought she blew nuts.

Now, now, Fireburns, this is a PG-13 site and let's keep it that way, or,
Do I have a dirty mind :-)

Do you have a link to that card? I'd like to see her with my own two eyes. I doubt she's hotter than Earthbind. Mike Flores was right on Earthbind being the hottest babe on cardboard. Sick minds think alike.

Isn't Burning Rakdos the most aggro thing we've seen, Wyatt? Maybe throw a touch of white in for faster fastness, say Burning Rakdo/boros?

[wyatt290]

well rakavoler she is pretty hot i guess but personally i find vitalizing crusad the hottest ;p

Burning rakdos?

Ive never heard of this build.
heres what im working on remember that this is post kamigawa rotation.

4 sedge Sliver
4 rakdos guildmage
4 frenzied goblin
4 Dark confident
4 Rakdos augermage
3 jaya ballard task mage

4 volcanic hammer
4 rise//fall
4 Shock( or seal whichever you prefer. i like element of surprise)

23 lands:

4 blood crypt
4 sulferous springs
4 watery grave
7 mountains
5 swamps

something along the lines of this.

ive taken out ...

lyzoldas
nekrataal
CoC
frostling

to more suit this as an aggro deck.

[Fireburns]

your kidding right about the earthbind chick?? Not sure why this has become a topic of interest, but here are some chicks hotter that earthbind

Alexi, Zephyr Mage
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Reya Dawnbringer
Kris Mage
Auriok Champion
Jeska, Warrior Adept
Seasoned Marshal (Urza)
Jaya Ballard

Those are just a few. As for the link
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mc55

Yeah she's hot (pun intended)

Now on topic my old unchanged decklist is kinda aggro:

4 Char
4 Cry of Contrition
4 Rise // Fall
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Seal of Fire
1 Demonfire

2 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
2 Watery Grave
4 Blood Crypt
4 Sulfurous Springs
5 Swamp
5 Mountain

4 Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
4 Rakdos Guildmage
4 Frostling
3 Rakdos Augermage
2 Giant Solifuge

Sideboard
4 Cruel Edict (may turn into hit // run)
3 Cranial Extraction
2 Shattering Spree
2 Flashfire (maybe Boiling Seas)
3 Dark Confidant
1 Demonfire

[kby]

cold snap didn't add anything worth mentioning to rakdos, because of a few things, i didn't buy the set b/c it sucks, and 2: if i wanted any of the cards, i would buy the singles, nothing enough to spend 75$ / box.... and who needs trading

[Rakavolver]

your kidding right about the earthbind chick?? Not sure why this has become a topic of interest, but here are some chicks hotter that earthbind

Jaya Ballard


Thanks very much for the link. I disagree on Jaya being that hot. I don't like her face. I've dated better. Anyway, she looks like she'd be high maintainance. Leather ain't cheap.

Anyway, about Wyatt's list. Looks decent enough. We're still in a bit of a vacuum here until we know ALL the TS cards. Sept 22,23,24 is coming, but not soon enough. I really can't comment on your deck, my deck, any deck till I see the whole list. So far though it seems they want us to go aggro, and the war against blue continues unabated. I can't comment, but has that ever stopped me before? :-)

Mishra's Bauble, why not? Thins your deck and if you want Jaya so hard, vastly increases the odds of drawing into her.

I like that you run only 3 Jaya. That's realistic, seeing as how she's a legend and all.

Her first ability will not destroy a Simic Sky Swallower, a card that isn't going anywhere.

I actually like her last ability best, in say a combo deck, or Izzet. She really is an Izzet card (do not the colors in the artwork give that away?). We can use her too of course. So can Gruul, Boros, etc.

Her discard-a-card thing seems steep. Makes me wish they'd bring back Nether Shadow, Jokulhaups, and Obliterate. TurboHaups was the best Black/Red deck in history. Dayam I miss that thing.

[Zardnaar]

Any one ekse here played the Rakdos mirror? My opponents decks was something like.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Rakdos Guildmage
3-4 Genju of the Spires
+alot of burn and hit/run.

My build was.

22 Land

14 Mountain
4 Sulphuric Springs
4 Blood Crypt

4 Frostling
4 Frenzied Goblin
4 Scorched Rusalka

4 Dark Confidant
4 Rakdos Guildmage

2 Giant Solifuge

4 Shock
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Lava Spike
4 Glacial Ray

In 4 games Dark Confidant never let either of us draw a single card. Genju annoyed me

[mossivo1986]

rotate this discussion to Time spiral, or atleast what we know of it. I can't stand jitte, kodama, sensei's, yuck, I've been playing these cards for far too long. .

I don't think b/r aggro will survive in the next block, but im not sure what will either way. I think blue control is back. or atleast b/w control.

[Rakavolver]

Agreed on Orzhov Control, but please tell me how blue will be better??

Well, Coldsnot gave blue at least one card, Rune Snag. That's not good for us, since we suck up the mana curve like crazy, and they can play as many as 7 or 8 Mana Leaks.

Hellbent and Threshold and Flashback, oh my. We'll see what quality of those that are published, at Midnight at Neutral Ground on the night following the day that is Sept 22.

Until then, what's wrong discussing Coldsheet Standard Rakdos? That's a fine deck, Zardnaar, and yah the mirror match is not something I've considered, anyway. Good for you. I like the way you settled the Goblin vs Rusalka vs Frostling debate by saying the heck with it and including 4 of each. ;-)

I just bring in burn vs anything Aggro, but maybe that's just me. Discard is .... not optimal vs Aggro and the more aggressive AggroControl decks. :-)

[Rakavolver]

Is a 4/4 for 4 gold card in the 3 colors many of you would like to play, decent?

Think of the following with Mishra's Bauble. Others are thinking of it in a combo-y deck with Jester's Cap, Scepter, Booby Trap.

Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
Legendary Creature - Human Artificer
Whenever you play an artifact spell, you may search your graveyard, hand, and/or library for a card with the same name as that spell and put it into play. If you search your library this way, shuffle it.
4/4

I can't see myself playing this because I'm stubborn and want to take JUST black and red to the limit before splashing, if I do, and yes splashing blue for the Rise part of Rise//Fall has always been tempting.

[Zardnaar]

Raka the above decklist was my $10 mono red deck adding confidant and the duals/painlands and a pair of solifuge. I'm seeing what effective decks I can build for sod all. The burn package (post rotation) should probably be something like. Unless better burn get printed of course.

4 Seal of Fire
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Char
2 Shock
2 Demonfire

The post rotation (- Jitte)discard testbed deck I'm running is something like

23 land yada yada

4 Plagued Rusalka
4 Rakdos Guildmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ravenous Rats
3 Lyzolda the Blood Witch
3 Rakdos Augarmage
3 Hellfire Rats

4 Rise /Fall
4 Jitte
4 Volcanic Hammer/Last Gasp

SB
4 Deathmark
4 Blackmail
4?
3 Nekrataal

Jitte will be replaced with either more burn or discard depending on what I expect the meta to be- Blackmail might make it into the main deck. The new uncommen fetch land will make it really easy to splash for blue without getting screwed to bad in the mana base- add 1 island to the land. Blood Moon might also make it in there- the Haakon deck is actually really annoying.

[Rakavolver]

Which Haakon deck? Haakon Gifts is not viable post-rotation, cuz Gifts goes away (Yay!). I think you knew that though so, um, Haakon Knights? Tribal deck! Might not suck, and I can assure you it will be played. "Tribes" appeal to young and old, but ahhh, will there ever be a better tribe than Goblins? So fast.

[kby]

now, no matter what i try decks when sets rotate out, but RB will be playable after the rotation because it doesn't lose anything...maybe a jitte*OH NO. It gains more then most decks will also.

After rotation, expect to see reanimator become bigger then ever, expect some form of critical mass w/ artifact mana, and expect some form of the same creature type decks: rebels, shadow(the ability), slivers, etc.... but all i know is, if people don't buy a couple of boxes of the upcoming set, they won't be able to play much. Also..... TS block constructed will have banned cards :)

[D3@D]

Im not so sure about the banned cards, altho I agree that TS will completely change the format, and also make room for Mono colored decks as well as multicolored as it is today.

I also think Rakdos will get some new toys, Reanimate / Mono Black will be up and coming, MUC, U/x Control, as Red XX

[wyatt290]

FNM report:

i came 3rd again top 4(7 weeks in a row with this deck)

round 1: loss to snakes(the guy went on to win touney) 0-2
round 2: beat a R/W control deck with some soldiers in it. 2-0
round 3: i forget 2-0
round 4: Rakdos mirror (sideboard guerilla tactics MVP) 2-0

in the end i won 6 games and lost 2.

before the tourney started i took out red martyr and put in frenzied goblin which is sooo good in this deck.

[Rakavolver]

round 4: Rakdos mirror (sideboard guerilla tactics MVP) 2-0

in the end i won 6 games and lost 2.

before the tourney started i took out red martyr and put in frenzied goblin which is sooo good in this deck.

LOL... Guerilla Tactics! Cool tech! I always loved that card. Rakdos mirror? Yikes! I hate mirrors, which is probably why I'm rogue, so I absolutely hate it when a deck I like becomes popular. Yuk! But good for you for winning.

Yah, no foolin' re Frenzied Goblin. Joker way back when early in this thread went with it, I copied that idea, and the only other one-drop critter I like in this deck is Plagued Rusalka, certainly not Scorched or Frostling. They're decent enough, but Frenzieds rock. Good for you, Wyatt. Rakdos is a blast to play. Good too. ;) Don't opponents drop trou when they see that smilin' little devil dude sittin' by the lava pool?

:eek: <=== opponent's face, dropping trou

Grrrrr, though, something has to be done about Snakes. How many CounterSheetsTop decks do you see; how many Haakon Gifts? Haakon may survive, but can Counterbalance without Top?
Already thinking ahead to when Coldcrap season is over.

[wyatt290]

Grrrrr, though, something has to be done about Snakes. How many CounerSheetsTop decks do you see, whow many Haakon Gifts? Haakon may survive, but can counterbalance without Topeady thinking ahead to when Coldcrap season is over)?


well red martyr is in my sideboard for a reason.

only if i drew them :rolleyes:

[fooligan]

i made a deck for my friend recently that mirrors alot of my old rakdos deck and it seems to be performing pretty well.

horray for higher card quality!

4 birds of paradise
4 kird ape
4 rakdos guildmage
4 dark confidant
4 burning tree shaman
3 lyzolda
3 crypt champion

4 jitte
3 volcanic hammar
4 putrefy

12 dual lands
2 sulfurous springs
1 llanowar wastes
1 karplusan forest
2 forest
2 swamps
1 mountains
1 shinka
1 shizo


it plays like a dream

[littlewoodg]

fooligan - !
long time no see...
I like your list a lot - B/R/G with arguably the best 1ccs, 2ccs, 3ccs of each color

the only "what if" I thought of (because I'm missing some of the duals, and Putrefys) was what if the card quality pool expanded to include Helix and Mortify...

the mana base I've figured out for this 4 color (mess?) is of course far less elegant than what you've got here...

[wyatt290]

some people may think making decks before the set is out si bad but not imo so heres my champs06 rakdos decklist its still in construction.

23 lands
(duals bouncelands and much more)

3 Jaya ballard
4 dark confident
4 frenzied goblin
4 sedge troll
3 nekrataal
4 rakdos guildmage

4 volcanic hammer
4 char
4 rise//fall
4 Cry o/c

sometinhg along the lines of that should be fine.

suggestions comments concerns

[darkarchonisme]

question: how powerful is the opening play of frostling, go, attack, double cry of contrition via haunt? you could kill off any one drop like birds or whatnot, and discard them by two. is it anygood?

[wyatt290]

ive done it once before i completley ruined my opponent that game.

[Rakavolver]

question: how powerful is the opening play of frostling, go, attack, double cry of contrition via haunt? you could kill off any one drop like birds or whatnot, and discard them by two. is it anygood?

Wyatt did it ONCE before. Emphasis on "Once." What are the odds, really?

This is Rakdos, the MOST UNSOCIABLE of guilds. Me like that.

"Unsociable," to me, means having cards that don't care what the other cards are. No combos. Other than the obvious one: Land + Spell.

Jaya. K, you guys want to play her. Great. Go for it. But have you ever heard of turning a liability into a positive? Like her discard requirement. So, what about Haakon, then? If you play Jaya, why not Haakon, as your only knight, or one of 2 even? It's not really a combo, more like a little gift, as each card is good on their own.

[Rakavolver]

In updating my Coldsnap list, I discovered that we not only lose Jitte, but Hand of Cruelty and Pithing Needle too. Ouch on Needle. That means I have 5 open slots in my board. I filled them in of course, because nature abhors a vacuum, and I'm nature boy. I moved the Solifugi to the board, and lost Augermage entirely (too much self-discard with Jaya, and Discard as a strategy will be BAD if graveyard recursion is strong) to make room for Haakon & Jaya. Here's what I'll start testing with.

"Hi, My Name is Rakdos. Now Get the Hell Away From Me."
Time Spiral Standard, first pass

4 Frenzied Goblin
4 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
3 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
3 Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
3 Plagued Rusalka
4 Rakdos Guildmage
4 Stromgald Crusader

3 Char
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Rise/Fall

4 Blood Crypt
6 Mountain
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
4 Sulfurous Springs
6 Swamp

4 Giant Solifuge
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Demonfire
4 Dark Confidant
1 Jaya Ballard, SM Task Mage

The 5 "open" sideboard slots I filled in (for the time being) with Pit Dragons #3 & #4, Demonfire #2, Dark Confidant #4 and Jaya.

[wyatt290]

i like your logic rakavolver.....

jaya+ haakon+ knights = hott-ness

but your gonna lose every game you ever play though

just becuase you have 3 jaya maindecked and 4 sideboard :P

[Rakavolver]

i like your logic rakavolver.....

jaya+ haakon+ knights = hott-ness

but your gonna lose every game you ever play though

just becuase you have 3 jaya maindecked and 4 sideboard :P

I hate it when people get "techy." :-)

I know, read back, I changed it, or ... am about to.

EDIT: I did.

[Joasht]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I don't exactly have the time to go through 83 pages :P

I'm curious:
1) The Blood Witch Vs Augermage?
I like the Blood Witch's effect and the Augermage's combat ability (aka stats + first strike), but I dislike Blood Witch's 1 defense and Augermage's effect, which IMO while interesting and helpful to reach Hellbent, it kinda contradicts its solid combat prowess

2) How many Avatar of Discords, if any?
Basically its highly vulnerable to bounce, and even burn. Heck even a Last Gasp can kill her iirc.

3) How many Pit Dragon, if any?
I was thinking of tossing this guy in (maybe 2-3) with some Rite of Flame's for pumping.

Thanks!

[wyatt290]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I don't exactly have the time to go through 83 pages :P

I'm curious:
1) The Blood Witch Vs Augermage?
I like the Blood Witch's effect and the Augermage's combat ability (aka stats + first strike), but I dislike Blood Witch's 1 defense and Augermage's effect, which IMO while interesting and helpful to reach Hellbent, it kinda contradicts its solid combat prowess

2) How many Avatar of Discords, if any?
Basically its highly vulnerable to bounce, and even burn. Heck even a Last Gasp can kill her iirc.

3) How many Pit Dragon, if any?
I was thinking of tossing this guy in (maybe 2-3) with some Rite of Flame's for pumping.

Thanks!

No problem,

blood witch & augermage i use both theyre too good of creatures to leave one out i often only play blood witch on turn 5 or on turn 3 rarley to get my opponent to use their removal on her to clear a path for my other men'z.

avvy: well i dont use avvy and neither does rakavolver but you never know we might change out minds if theres some nice flashback/madness spells in time spiral.

pit dragon: hes not worth the mana youll put into him rite of flame isnt good either it'll only work well with pit dragon.

me: 0
rakavolver: 2-3 cant remember

hope this helps you out

--wyatt290

[Rakavolver]

Avatar of DiscArd - You will 3:1 yourself in card DIS-advantage, if your opponent handles it (counters, mortify, petrify, etc.) I can see it in a monoblack control deck. I can see it with Zombify. I can see it in the ways Wyatt said. What I can't see is a ton of GREAT shadow, flashback, madness, threshhold, slivers etc., because they are force-fitting SO much old stuff into a single set. They could have tons'o'goodstuff, but most of the set will have to be dedicated to Draft players, so I expect most of the cards to suck for Standard, as usual.

Pit Dragon & Augermage - Dragon is supreme vs Aggro, cuz you can make her FLY! Augermage is good too vs Aggro, cuz it's a 3/2 first striker and rarely do you use its special ability in that case. Hmm, I might replace my boarded Dragons with Augermages, cuz Augermage is good vs everything, even combo. Then again, it sux vs Recursion. Decisions, decisions. Hm, hm, hm. Good thinking, Wyatt and Joasht. Thanks. ALWAYS, the last 4 of the 75 cards, is the headache.

Lysolda - is just damn good. Playtest and see. Anyone who questions Lysolda is telling me they haven't played with her.

[Fireburns]

question: how powerful is the opening play of frostling, go, attack, double cry of contrition via haunt? you could kill off any one drop like birds or whatnot, and discard them by two. is it anygood?

I say that in about 60% of my opening hands i have a frostling and a Cry of Contrition. And if you draw a Rise/Fall then it's just great using just the one frostling and a CoC, because they well almost always discard land. Then follow that up with the Fall half of Rise/Fall. You can haunt opposing creatures and then kill them the next turn or that turn. So is it any good? Yeah it is, I haven't even figured out what to replace the 8 cards with I may try out a rusalka and CoC for awhile, but his non-paying sac ability really is great (stupid Mogg taking forever to get here). So try it out for yourself for a while and see if you like it if not try something else, that's the whole point in creating and testign your deck.

[Rakavolver]

I say that in about 60% of my opening hands i have a frostling and a Cry of Contrition.

.....



???

You are one of the luckiest people of the planet, because the odds of gettng one each of two distinct cards you have 4-each of in your opening hand is either 36.9 or 39.6 per cent, I forget which.

I remember that from the 4 Dark Ritual + 4 Hypnotic Specter days.

On the other hand, if you're including mulligans, then yes, it's higher.

Any stat freaks (like I used to be before I gave way to intuition) care to comment?

Statistics, Standard Deviations, Combinations, Permutations .... these things don't suck. :p

[Fireburns]

I know that it's only 8 cards in a 60 card deck, but i usually have the T1 Frostling and it's even better on the draw. I have only done the T1 frostling followed by Double CoC only a few times if i wrote them down you could probably count them out with out using your toes. But frostling, CoC is not entirely uncommon to see within the 1st 3 turns (i try to wait until T3 but i fear counterspells and frostling kill). And i think there is a hand generator on TCG if i'm not mistaken for those who really want to do all the numbers and stats on it.

[wyatt290]

Yeah it mkgiht be odd but when i played frostling and CoC i also got them both in my opening hand for about 75% of time that was probably why i did so good with that version.

i also know that maybe 1 in 10 hands id get the double cry hand it those games were just GG.

Rakavolver i odnt agree im standing by what ive always thought dragon is junk.

[Rakavolver]

Rakavolver I don't agree. I'm standing by what I've always thought Rakdos Pit Dragon is junk.

Sigh, I hate fighting with my friends, but if you think about it, who else do we fight with, since who the hell hangs out with their enemies?

Rakdos Pit Dragon vs Rakdos Augermage

Dragon, Pros:

- an anti-aggro card, because it flies
- pumpable
- best in a mostly red deck
- It has a toughness of 3

Dragon, Cons:

- making it fly, and pump, takes additional mana expenditure
- not that good in a control-dominant meta
- it costs 4, not 3

Augermage, Pros:

- It costs 3, not 4
- decent vs Aggro thanks to its being at worst a 3/2 first-striker
- decent vs Control if you use its ability and it isn't countered, Wrathed, PetriMortrefied, etc.

Augermage, Cons:

- costs BBR, therefore best in a mostly Black build, and "mostly Black" Rakdos is looking (so far) to be suboptimal to "mostly Red" Rakdos
- gives your oponent a choice as to which of your cards to discard, should you not have reached empty hand hellbent status
- Discard (other than self-discard) might be the WORST stategy possible come Time Spiral Standard season, should graveyard recursion become popular (regardless of quality).
- It has a toughness of 2

So, add to those lists if you wish. I'm torn between the two, at present. Not to worry, Sept. 23 is coming and we'll know more then.
.

[Fireburns]

Before I used Giant Solifuge I used them both. I will say this once the dragon is active it's very hard to lose the game. He hit's very, very hard. But his problem is that he does require hellbent to do so and also by the time you do play him you have established some sort of control, be it hand control or burn pointed at the opponent or clearing airways for the dragon to fly. So you will have cards in your hand which defeats the purpose of having the dragon, weather those cards are extra land, discard, or creatures (why keep playing creatures once you have a good grip on the game?) and I say extra because you will have some sort of card drawing engine in play either Dark Confidant or P. Arena.

So Wyatt the dragon is not a bad card he's just not utilized to his fullest extent in the decks that we play. But the way TS is shaping up it seems that Hellbent may get it's day in the sun, now if we can get a Basking Rootwalla then you will see a spike in the use of the Avatar of Discord, it just depends on what else comes out in the TS set.

[D3@D]

IMO mage should be priority here.. the dragon maybe SB material

[Rakavolver]

Ben Blieweiss has concluded his Rakdos series over at magicthegathering.com with Rakdos Hellbent Control.

Self-discard is a fine thing, but I wouldn't get carried away with it. Do you guys really want Jaya AND Avatar of DiscArd AND Augermage in your decks? Hellbent is a fairly bad state for Standard, we'll wait and see how many and more importantly the quality of Threshhold, Flashback etc. cards they make.

Then there's this card from TS ... abuseable?

Wheel of Fate
Sorcery
Wheel of Fate is Red
Suspend 4 - 1R
Each player discards his or her hand, then draws seven cards.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/aa245

Discuss.

[Stokesy110]

Something tells me Raka you really like Wheel of Fate. I've seen you mean it in THREE different threads so far.

I agree its abuseable. Very abuseable as I mention in the UWg control thread. But I dont know whether I like suspend yet. Seeing as the spell can still be countered once all timecounters have been lifted off. I dont see myself liking have a spell remanded that I've waited 4 turns to come into effect.

[Rakavolver]

And Jaya will be countered too, or should be. So with this down the Control player has a tough decision to make, should he counter/remand the Jaya or something else as heinous, or hold back to counter the Fate? I do think we should be aware of the card. I'm not saying we should use it. I do note the discard thing like putting Haakons in g.y., other Knights, etc. I also note it's two-sidedness in helping an opponent as well.

I don't have any room for it at the moment ... we'll see ... thank God or Fate I have patience or this slow-rolling out of Time Spiral would be killing me.

[wyatt290]

I got a feeling that the wheel is overrated i love it but turn 6 is kinda a bid late but would be great in a mono red burn deck imo.

in this deck....NO!

[D3@D]

I have to say the Wheel of Fate has potential in Rakdos. Im 85% sure of it:P I just have this feeling.. But it may also be that our current decks will be completely different from its design as it is now. As the fact that the new decks will arise so the strategy will change with it.

When TS gets legal, alot of things will change and so will our builds.

[Rakavolver]

Btw, I just realized the Rakdos deck I presented was retarded, because I had only 4 ways* (3 Jaya + 1 Rix Maadi) to put Haakons into my graveyard. I like Insanity's idea (over at the Haakon thread) of 7 ways better. Well, who knows what will happen. Graveyard recursion will be strong, I predict, thanks in large part to Haakon, and other cards like Flashback, Threshhold, etc. We'll have to wait and see if any of those cards are Standard quality.

*I don't see playing with 4 Jayas, even if she is a burn/countermagnet, because she's a Legend. 3 Jaya, 2 Rix-Maadi, and two ... gawd help me .... Avatar of unholy self-DiscArd may be the way to go. I could writes articles about how screwed up a card Avatar of DiscArd is. I hate it in anything outside of monoBlack control, which is doubtfully good. Any good artifacts or enchantments out there? If so, anything monoBlack is a risk, especially with C. Extraction rotating out. We'll see.

So, completely untested update follows. Having to take out TWO more cards (i still miss the Seals of Fire, really hurts), um, lose a Rusalka and a Blood Witch beyotch, I guess ...

2 Avatar of DiscArd
4 Frenzied Goblin
4 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
3 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
2 Plagued Rusalka
4 Rakdos Guildmage
4 Stromgald Crusader

3 Char
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Rise/Fall

4 Blood Crypt
5 Mountain
2 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
4 Sulfurous Springs
6 Swamp

4 Giant Solifuge
2 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Demonfire
3 Dark Confidant
4 open slots

[wyatt290]

2 Avatar of DiscArd
4 Frenzied Goblin
4 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
3 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
2 Plagued Rusalka
4 Rakdos Guildmage
4 Stromgald Crusader

3 Char
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Rise/Fall

4 Blood Crypt
5 Mountain
2 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
4 Sulfurous Springs
6 Swamp

4 Giant Solifuge
2 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Demonfire
3 Dark Confidant
4 open slots

ewww bauble?

I think it definitly doesnt fit this deck, bauble is the kind of card that you want to put into a white weenie deck taking out a few lands for since you dont need many lands to run on.

I have no room for Rixi maadi but if you like it go for it. I had found i foten needed black for rakdos augermage hes very hard to cast thats why im now running the bouncelands they help quite a bit.

I understand your approch with the deck...

-aggro
-doesnt lose to WoG (becuase of knights)
-can control if needed

My version is more of 60% Control and 40% aggro is i guess how i would do it. I guess it really depends on your metagame though i find control is a lot better then aggro but straight out control is not my style of play.

heres just a few of suggestions to the deck....

-2 avvy
-2 resulka
-4 bauble

+4 volcanic hammers
+1 lyzolda
+3 Nekrataal

Im sure I dont have to explain why your not dumb.

[Rakavolver]

heres just a few of suggestions to the deck....

-2 avvy
-2 resulka
-4 bauble

+4 volcanic hammers
+1 lyzolda
+3 Nekrataal

Im sure I dont have to explain why your not dumb.

Well, thanks for helping me tune my deck, firstly.

Second, yah, I am dumb. Do I fake it well that I'm not? I hope so.

But I am dumb because I realize I DID have more ways than 4 ways to put Haakon in the boneyard, and those extra four ways were the four R.Guildmages, so maybe I'll go back to my original build, ... dunno.

Frankly though, I use Rakdos Guildmage in numerous ways, my favorite being to sac it to Lysolda for burn AND draw. It has so many other uses, though. So many. It's my favorite Guildmage, bar none.

As far as Baubles go, yah, maybe they suck, I'll make them Seals of Fire in a New York minute (last measured as 12.2 seconds, or 12.7 seconds when Zvi is out of town, if you've ever met Zvi and know how fast he talks you know what I'm talking about). My gut feeling though is that since there are so many mini-combos in my deck, I will start with Bauble at first. Of course I'll ask myself if I draw it if I'd rather it be a Seal. Of course I won't if I face off vs Control.

Aye, yai, yai, Time Spiral. I've seen about 12 years of this slow-rolling out of new flagship sets, but this is the first year I'm actually impatient, because it seems to me that TS is an absolutely bat**** insane set. Rakdos, and all the other guilds, will probably have to start over from scratch. I don't envy the new players to Magic who have to learn SO many new mechanics.

[wyatt290]

I remember when i started around about scourge there were soo many mechanics i thought in type 2 my head was constantly spinning but now when i think about it we have probably 20 in the environment now and after time spiral itll probably be around 25.

[Rakavolver]

There are two cards in Time Spiral which I'd like to talk about but can't cuz they were seen in Adult Swim and aren't official.

One is a red knight that I like very much and the other is the black Magus which I don't if its toughness is actually what it's alledged to be, and besides, Mirror Universe is best for U-based decks that take a lickin' before they apply the whippin'.

The red Magus on the other hand ......... :-)

[Fireburns]

You can talk about Adult Swim cards because they are....well on a network and if that isn't offical then i don't know what is.

[Eternal Wizard]

Happy days; Cursed Scroll is back.

[D3@D]

Wizards really has it for our guild now. The new scroll has its + and - but I will probably be using atleast 2 or 3 of it.

[Joasht]

My Post-Kamigawa Pre-Time Spiral Budget B/R Deck

I tested this deck against several decks, including a few rare-laden ones (even red/green, which I figured might be an interesting matchup), and found that it could win rather consistantly.

Creatures
3 Boros Recruit
3 Kill-Suit Cultist
4 Scorched Rusalka
4 Gobhobbler Rats
3 Jagged Poppet
3 Rakdos Guildmage
1 Avatar of Discord

Spells
3 Shock
4 Seal of Fire
2 Seal of Doom
2 Hit/Run
4 Rite of Flame
2 Seismic Spike

Artifacts
4 Rakdos Signet

Lands
2 Tresserhorn Sinks
11 Mountain
6 Swamps

I know it looks kinda weird, but this is a slight twist from the usual Rakdos deck, that often requires about 3 before it starts unloading its hand. This deck is faster, allowing a significant amount of damage to go through early, thanks to not only the numerous small creatures and smaller burns, but also due to the mana acceleration given by the Rites, something I noticed almost no one playing.

Another card this deck plays that is not commonly found is Kill-Suit cultist. Although many may say fanatic is better, I like the kill suits; the basic idea is NOT to drop them unless you have a shock/seal of fire/rusalka ready. This card is sorta like a Seal of Doom (R for the goblin, B for his effect, and another R for Rusalka/Shock/Seal, total of 3 cost, like SoD), but capable of targeting black creatures, although it is often a 2/3 for 1 deal. Sometimes its worth it though.

Indeed this deck may lack some middle-late game firepower, but the general idea of this deck is to not allow your opponent to hit that point in the game by rushing him. This deck also does not face any problems hitting Hellbent, since the hand can empty rather quickly if so willed.

The main reason why I did not put in:
1) Lyzolda - can't seem to find it, and I guess I could replace her with Jaya once she's out.

2) Rakdos Pit Dragon - No cash to buy them :P

3) Avatar of Discord - I actually don't overly mind another copy, just for the look on my opponent's face when I drop a first-turn Avatar :D

4) Rakdos Augermage - when I finally decided to get some, the price in my area suddenly goes up two fold; I mean, what the heck? So yeah its another "no-money" situation :( Not that I care I guess, this deck is a budget deck after all.

I hope you guys could give me insights on what to add/remove, but please, no Shock Lands (remember, its a BUDGET deck!).

Thanks!

[wyatt290]

Creatures
3 Boros Recruit
3 Kill-Suit Cultist
4 Scorched Rusalka
4 Gobhobbler Rats
3 Jagged Poppet
3 Rakdos Guildmage
1 Avatar of Discord

Spells
3 Shock
4 Seal of Fire
2 Seal of Doom
2 Hit/Run
4 Rite of Flame
2 Seismic Spike

Artifacts
4 Rakdos Signet

Lands
2 Tresserhorn Sinks
11 Mountain
6 Swamps



wow what kinda of budget are you on a 10$ one?

[wyatt290]

( ...sorry for the doublepost...)

heres a sligh version i was messing around with yesterday.

11 mountains
3 swamps
4 sulferous springs
4 blood crypt

4 magnus of the scroll
4 frenzied goblin
4 dark confident
4 rakdos guildmage
3 jaya ballard
4 rakdos augermage
3 nekrataal

4 last gasp
4 volcanic hammer
4 creul edict

sideboard:

4 stone rain
4 cryoclasm
4 pyroclasm
3 deathmark

sometinhg along the lines of that, thats just an early build though keep that in mind suggestions anyone?

[Rakavolver]

Magus of the Scroll
Creature - Human Wizard R
3, {T}: Name a card. Reveal a card at random from your hand. If its the named card, Magus of the Scroll deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Illus. Greg Staples
1/1

This is the card? It's no Cursed Scroll. The 1/1 power toughness thing means it will draw critterkill out of your opponent's hand (or possibly their own MotS in play) like nobody's business. Not sure it's playable, actually. For full abuse, CS needed to stay out for 3 turns minimum. Creatures in general tend to last 2. Not saying it's bad, either. Again, Izzet can protect it, we can't. Some cards need protection, like Marcia Brady out on a date with Doug Simpson.

Had it been a 1/5, however .... mmm, sweetness. But it's not. Oh well.

[Joasht]

wow what kinda of budget are you on a 10$ one?

Hehe quite close actually! In USD, my budget is about $13 or so :P

I'll most likely eventually add cards, but its not half bad for the time being. I'm trying to make a rather unorthodox Rakdos deck at the same time, rather than the good old "cookie-cutter" variants out there.

[Haemoglobin]

I think you could do something a bit more powerful on a budget. Maybe try one of the more burn orientated decks with 4 Dark Confidant to fuel the burn. I'm sure you could find replacements for Char and Demonfire, here's a quick list:

4 Rakdos Carnarium
9 Swamp
9 Mountain

4 Dark Confidant
4 Rakdos Guildmage
4 Scorched Rusalka

4 Shock
4 Seal of Fire
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Cruel Edict
3 Hit//Run
4 Last Gasp
3 Guerrila Tactics

The only "expensive card" is Dark Confidant and they're not stupidly expensive. Changes if you're not on a budget are:
- 4 Rakdos Carnarium
- 2 Mountain
- 2 Swamp
- 3 Guerrila Tactics
- 4 Scorched Rusalka
+ 4 Blood Crypt
+ 4 Sulfurous Springs
+ 4 Char
+ 3 Demonfire

Hope that helps you.

[wyatt290]

i think its time people should stop positng about kami block lists and only onea after rotaation does that sound if at all reasonable.

[Worlock]

For the non-budget:

4 Blood Crypt
7Swamp
7Mountain
4 Dark Confidant
4 Rakdos Guildmage

4 Shock
4 Seal of Fire
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Cruel Edict
3 Hit//Run
4 Last Gasp
3 Demonfire
4 Char
What happened to Giant Solifuge in this deck? Also, if you are playing a lot of basic lands, have you considered Skredd if you run snow covered lands instead?

Good Luck

[mac1337str33t]

the build from haemoglobin with only 18 lands...that's brave imho im running 23...that including 3 karoos. what's everyone's SB shaping up to be?

[wyatt290]

4 cryoclasm
4 deathmark
4 distress
3 b0b

it changes every week thats my current on at the moment.

[Touyokouzan]

the build from haemoglobin with only 18 lands...that's brave imho im running 23...that including 3 karoos. what's everyone's SB shaping up to be?

I have to agree with you here man. That is pretty brave to run 18 lands in this deck. I could even see 20 lands. But 18 lands is really brave lol.

[D3@D]

Perhaps I would have used 19 lands in his deck actually..

[Rakavolver]

I'm a 21-land (no less) man myself. Only one way to settle it: test draws.

[Stokesy110]

I never go below 20 land. not unless I'm playing alot of signets or a particularly low manacurve.

[D3@D]

Sligh (at least in vintage) can hold 19 lands Imo. 17/18 if youre using Lotus and Mox Ruby

Altho I seldom go below 21 lands myself as well as Rakavolver

[Rakavolver]

Sligh (in Standard) had 4 4-of spells = 16 glorious one-drops that allowed one to run only 18 lands. Legacy has/had a bizarre deck called "2-Land Charbelcher." Yikes.

When Land Grant was legal in Standrad, there was something called 13-land Land Grant...Stompy I think.

Whatever, the age-old wisdom was "20 lands if mono, 24 if two-colors, 25-27 if Zvi playing U-control." In the ultimate analysis, it really depends one which spells you use. How many lands does Satanic Sligh use?


Satanic Sligh
a Standard deck, played by Harry Yarhas to a 1st place finish at Greek Nationals 2006

4 Sulfurous Springs
4 Blood Crypt
10 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
------
22 Lands

4 Dark Confidant
4 Rakdos Guildmage
3 Blood Moon
4 Char
4 Volcanic Hammer
3 Genju of the Spires
4 Cruel Edict
1 Flames of the Blood Hand
3 Shock
4 Seal of Fire
4 Demonfire
------
38 Spells
------

4 Pithing Needle
2 Bottled Cloister
3 Deathmark
4 Martyr of Ashes
2 Quicksand
------
15 Sideboard Cards

[D3@D]

He got Genjus, chars blood moon ++ Making 22 land a must for him

[mac1337str33t]

i like that greek decklist...but in my version instead of MD bloodmoon i run 4 flames of the blood hand because life gain is high and neigh in my meta...i forget who first said something but a long time ago when i started getting back into this game competitively...they said to use 61 cards and use 22 land in a 60 making the 61st a land and it would shuffle a lot better...and i've done that ever since....and you don't see me complaining...don't flame it...try it <3

[wyatt290]

i like that greek decklist...but in my version instead of MD bloodmoon i run 4 flames of the blood hand because life gain is high and neigh in my meta...i forget who first said something but a long time ago when i started getting back into this game competitively...they said to use 61 cards and use 22 land in a 60 making the 61st a land and it would shuffle a lot better...and i've done that ever since....and you don't see me complaining...don't flame it...try it <3\

whenever i started playing the good players in my area said dont run a single card over 60 cards in your deck and run as many things that will thin out your deck as possible to increase the chances of drawing answers when you need them.

im sure 1 card wont make a BIG difference but i guess ill never know.

[D3@D]

As far as I know,decks that support 61 cards are powered decks with lots of tutors and Yawgmoth`s Will is the 61st card.

[Rakavolver]

Is it true they're bringing back Nicol Bolas and Shadowmage Infiltrator? If so, they could fit in a Rakdos/Blue RBu build. Not sure I'd want them. Just not sure. What is Wizards doing? I almost get the feeling they want to kill Standard.

61 cards would work in a UW-ish control deck. Nowhere else, 'cept when Milling was strong, like anti-Academy in '98. I've seen it do well. Rarely, though. Well if your results back 61 cards up, go with it. I'll stay with 60 for the time being, though.

[mac1337str33t]

mathmatically you have a 10% better chance of getting an extra land opening hand...no joke (that is if you make the 61st card to ur deck a land)

[Char you]

what is the greek deck list

[adarkmethod]

yeah, running a 61st as a land is awesome most of the time, especially when you dont have the duals you need

[wyatt290]

i wish they would reprint these wink wink

(*cough *)

stupor
the rack
avalach riders
avatar of woe
gaes blessing
void
mystic crusader
and more cards that are crazy awesome

(*cough *)

[Rakavolver]

what is the greek deck list

I'm not going to tell you. Not reading back ON THE SAME PAGE (page 87) is just lazy.

[Touyokouzan]

i wish they would reprint these wink wink

(*cough *)

stupor
the rack
avalach riders
avatar of woe
gaes blessing
void
mystic crusader
and more cards that are crazy awesome

(*cough *)

lol wishful thinking man. But i agree with you <3

[Fireburns]

If they were to reprint the rack then we would then have to go back to the discard heavy version of the deck, rather than the "Flame Yo Face" version that is seeing more play. Also it would go against what TS is trying to do by giving use usable burn.

[wyatt290]

i know this might not interest this forum but heres a r/g sligh deck im making for provincials//states


4 BoP
4 Llanowar elf
4 avalanch riders
3 jaya ballard
4 burning tree shamsn
4 ohran viper

4 stone rain
3 cryoclasm
4 call of the herd
4 volcanic hammer

4 stomping grounds
4 karplusan forest
7 mountians
7 forests

what would you do against a deck like this for states?

[Fireburns]

You can do another thread for that deck, or revive the R/G LD deck thread and i'll post with you because i have a R/G deck i have been working on.

But back on topic looking at TS we are going to have about 40 cards to try out making about 4-100,000 versions of the deck.

[Rakavolver]

Why don't you have Call of the Herd in your Gruul build? Honestly, I'd play Gruul if I thought it had better cards than Rakdos. Well, what else are the THREE aggro colors (red black green) getting besides those mentioned so far? Scragnoth is a nice card for vs blue. I don't think Twisted Abomination or Undead Warchief will help black that much. Bad Moon? Pffft...what??? Bad Moon was one of the best cards ever.

[Fireburns]

I have a feeling that TS will help us out greatly and Green kinda got the short end of the stick but again the whole spoiler isn't out. I also see your point about the herd and did you see Safe Haven? That will help out many a deck vs wrath.

[Rakavolver]

I like Safe Haven (below). Please note however it doesn't tap for mana, and you only get to play one land a turn.

Safe Haven
Land
{2}, {T}: Remove target creature you control from the game.
0: At the beginning of your upkeep, you may sacrifice Safe Haven. If you do, each player puts into play all cards he or she owns removed from the game with Safe Haven.

How about this?

Gemstone Mine
Land
Gemstone Mine comes into play with three mining counters on it.
{T}, Remove a mining counter from Gemstone Mine: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. If there are no mining counters on Gemstone Mine, sacrifice it.

Control decks can't use this card ... they're playing for the long game. But WE can!! In fact, 3 color deck lovers are salivating. Zoo players in particular have to be happy. Why not BRg? Or GRb? or GBr ?

So much for those "tough land mixes" in 3-color Ravnica builds. GM solves alot of problems. I can see Rakdos splashing green for Scragnoth and Call alone. I must have missed the news item where they made marijuana legal in Washington State, cuz somebody somewhere is high.

I feel bad for the newbies who don't own these cards. I have all this stuff. Lots of the Purple cards were Rare. And they're all ULTRA-Rare cuz even though you get one per pack, there are 121 of them, and only 80-90 "regular" Rares. Hasbro is greedier than ever, and if you ask me they're trying to kill Standard. I think it will backfire on them. Time will tell.

[Fireburns]

Well the reprinting of these cards are good for the Magic the Gathering Online, it makes the card base even larger. Also for RLM (real life magic) the reprints are awesome, some of those cards were staples in their day. I think R & D made a good decision bringing them back. As for being greedy I don't know, you may have a point because why raise prices and then print more cards than ever?

[Dyne]

Rakavolver - There only "Ultra-Rare" if you want them with the new symbol. If you want to use the older ones, they will be much easier, and much cheaper to get. This way, their not making any profit on them at all, but the dealers.

[Rakavolver]

Definitely a good deal for the dealers. Good for me too. I haven't bought any Coldsnap cards and won't buy any Spiral and STILL expect to do good at States! ( lol )

For New Black Zoo (Rakdos Green)

Run these main, 2 3/3's for seven mana from ONE card is efficient:

Call of the Herd
2G (3), Sorcery
Put a 3/3 green Elephant creature token into play.
Flashback {3}{G} (You may play this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.)

the next is a nice sideboard card for vs blue, which got back Whispers of the Muse (not good):

Scragnoth
4G (5), Creature - Beast 3/4
Scragnoth can't be countered.
Protection from blue

Insane in its day, run 2 of the following main, with knights/Haakon, CotH's:

Stormbind
1RG (3), Enchantment
{2}, Discard a card at random: Stormbind deals 2 damage to target creature or player.

[Fireburns]

Hmm....we already have a R/B/u build and now you are suggesting R/B/g. That's a whole new can of worms i haven't even begun to think about. I haven't even built the "Flame Yo Face" version of R/B. But there is no reason to run B the R/G version of that deck can wreck face.

And Dyne is correct no one needs to buy the TS version of these cards, and most of us already have them in a box somewhere in a closet.

[mac1337str33t]

that's very true...i just got a playset of invasion void's for 5 dollars :)...i've tested different colors being added and it just takes away from the purpose of the deck...if you want to play 3 color beat down...play zoo not rakdos wins...that's just my opinion though

[Dyne]

I think just B/R got enough from TS that it will make due. Those green cards mentioned should be played in either Zoo or Gruul.

[wyatt290]

well i hate to say it but im abandoning this deck for a little while to pursue a viable deck for champs06 youll see me top 8 im making g/w/b aggro its gonna rule im sure ill still be checking in but untill then ttyl.

[kby]

i saw that list....i was like..hmmm why....why...WHY!!!! which im happy :) because that was the time i quit, was before legions...... and since im back(since dissension). i have like 20 mystic snakes(....collected them back in the day :) ) 6 alt-art voidmages..... i mean i hope that list is real... because if it isn't... then(HAHAHAHHA put some profane word)

[D3@D]

It is for sure that adding a 3rd color to rakdos is not needed. As things have been developing now, Im going to be working on Rakdos / Guruul and MUC
Which IMO has had the most exiting "new toys" to tinker with.

With Call of the Herd and Troll Ascetic, Green will be UBER. + the anti-Control creature Rakavolver sugested Scragnoth.

I believe infact that Guruul will be the best aggro deck, but Rakdos does have more tricks than RG. and White Weenie (im not so sure of)

[Rakavolver]

How did the Spanish kill 23 million Central Americans in the 1500's again? Oh yeah, by giving them blankets intentionally infected with ....

Smallpox
BB
Sorcery
Each player sacrifices a creature, then discards a card, then sacrifices a land, then loses 1 life.

[Rakavolver]

Gerard Fabiano has a nice article up at Brainburst Premium re Stanic Sligh. He likes Bottled Cloister (sideboarded) as a card drawing mechanism. Mm, OK. It still will die (as will Phyexian Arena) to Naturalize, Disenchant, Mystic Melting, and Seed Spark. I guess it has advantage over Arena vs say Ronon Unicorn. Whatever.

MUC? Why? Whispers of the Muse? That's an awesome card drawing card. Much better than Tidings or Compulsive Research or Ancestral Visions. Why not Uw or Uwx though? Blue needs Wrath of God like a man needs a jacket on a cold day, IMO. I expect I'll investigate Azorius Black to abuse Finkel's card, Shadowmage Infiltrator. That card was wholly abusive back in the day.

Mystic Snake. Pfft. Well, Simic is weird, so maybe. Not sure it's so great now, we'll see.

Gruul? Heck yeah I hope it's good again. My main idea in trying to abuse a black zoo something is the existance again of Gemstone Mine. Along with Undiscovered Paradise, it was one of the two best multi-colored lands back in its day, or ever. I'd prefer breaking BRG more than GRW simply because the B is so awesome vs Control, and W is not. W IS Control. So can be B and R. Shrug. We're all guessing at this point. What fun.

[kby]

smallpox is kind of a GREAT CARD.... ...the new standard type 2 format should be intresting... wow, even TsBC should be intresting... not to mention, what cards are they reprinting in the 2 expands for this block?

also....BR is still the best, it gains so much, loses a little(like burn, jitte, and stuff). which is all fixed in TS.

well, i just hope the format is still wide open as it is right now. as purple cards are concerned, we get: browbeat(3mana 3cards/5dmg), fiery temper(madness!!), void(...old fav and mass removal), the rack(more discard decks in format), stupor(great discard), faceless butcher(removal with creature)...and much more...MUCH MORE..

those are just the reprints....imagine the other broken cards they release in the set...also, when does the spoiler come out? on SAT? or eventually.

[Fireburns]

I believe the spoiler comes out on Monday.

[D3@D]

Im concidering MUC or U/x basicly because for 1: it usually is within budget range (For me atleast) and it can be good if you know exactly how your meta is going to be.

But definatly Rakdos and Guruul will be MAD agressive decks. Smallpox looks interesting. More of a MBC / Control related card (my first impression of it)

[Rakavolver]

Therey're bringing the following card back as Purple? i hope so. A 5/5 pumpable flyer for 4 was always great in the board vs certain decks (Aggro, Control, etc.).

Fledgling Dragon
2RR (4), Creature - Dragon 2/2
Flying
Threshold - Fledgling Dragon gets +3/+3 and has "{R}: Fledgling Dragon gets +1/+0 until end of turn." (You have threshold as long as seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)

[kaskamerica]

Troll doesnt come back until 10th, but I can see our deck here and some kind of UG agro being tops!

Mystic Snake gives them a bunch and we get Fledgling! Smallpox and Magus of the Scroll is gunna be great for us too!


It is for sure that adding a 3rd color to rakdos is not needed. As things have been developing now, Im going to be working on Rakdos / Guruul and MUC
Which IMO has had the most exiting "new toys" to tinker with.

With Call of the Herd and Troll Ascetic, Green will be UBER. + the anti-Control creature Rakavolver sugested Scragnoth.

I believe infact that Guruul will be the best aggro deck, but Rakdos does have more tricks than RG. and White Weenie (im not so sure of)

[kby]

yeah, they reprinted dragon whelp over fledging.... stupid leaked spoilers getting things all wrong!!! well, BR got a crapload of new removal spells, reprinted ones(void..WUHA), mass removal spells, and some really good craetures. Im sure this deck will be good, fun, and stronger then it was with kawa.

[Rakavolver]

Assasinate is good. Sorry about the Whelp over Dragon thing. Squire ... why? Meddling Mage and Spectral Lynx turned out to be false rumors as well. I'll bet you see Mystic Enforcer quite a bit more than Mystic Snake. I have no idea where this archetype is going till I read all the cards, and even then, deep thought will be required. Things we do know...

Slivers suck, but people will play them. If you have only ONE sliver in a deck though, the fattie black one is good.
Rebels and WW may/may not be a problem. Prot Red is everywhere, and of course Akroma, Angel of Wrath hates us, and we, her (she's quite the looker, though). I think wizards has really got theirs sighted on wussifying Red, which can't be good news for Satanic Sligh.

[Zardnaar]

What do people think of the Rack in a rakdos discard deck? They should be long dead and/or in topdeck mode long before Akroma becomes relevent. Add creature kill to SB. Also some of the madness cards could be interesting with Avatar of Discord or Rakdos Guildmage.

[Fireburns]

People love card advantage. So the rack isn't a bad idea, but look at this they also brough back disenchant, so any deck packing W will hit the Rack but it is also a T1 play and they have to draw it, so i'm kinda torn.

[Zardnaar]

Odds are they'll have to topdeck it as I'm not sure I would play the rack until their hand size was reduced- preferably to topdeck mode. Even then if they disenchant it you're still swinging with creatures.