The Official Frog Discussion thread

[manicania]

Welcome everyone to the Official Frog Discussion thread!

If you're unfamiliar or if you just want more information on this archetype, you can visit the official Wikia page for the Frog archetype (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Frog).

This is a place to discuss any and all Frog deck variants, to discuss strategies and help others out. Anything related to the Frog archetype belongs here.

Meet the Frogs:

Beezle Frog (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Beelze_Frog): Level 3, WATER, Aqua, 1200 ATK/800 DEF
"Increase the ATK of this card by 300 points for each "T.A.D.P.O.L.E." in your Graveyard."

Des Frog (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Des_Frog): Level 5, WATER, Aqua, 1900 ATK/0 DEF
"When this card is Tribute Summoned, you can Special Summon "Des Frog"(s) from your hand or Deck up to the number of "T.A.D.P.O.L.E."(s) in your Graveyard."

Dupe Frog (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Dupe_Frog): Level 2, WATER, Aqua, 100 ATK/2000 DEF
"This card's name is treated as "Des Frog" while it is face-up on the field. Your opponent cannot select another monster as an attack target. When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard, you can add 1 "Frog" monster except "Dupe Frog" or "Frog the Jam" from your Deck or Graveyard to your hand."

Flip Flop Frog (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Flip_Flop_Frog): Level 2, WATER, Aqua, 500 ATK/200 DEF
"Once per turn, you can flip this card into face-down Defense Position. When this card is flipped face-up, you can return monsters your opponent controls to their owners' hand up to the number of face-up "Frog" monsters you control, except "Frog the Jam"."

Poison Draw Frog (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Poison_Draw_Frog): Level 2, WATER, Aqua, 100 ATK/100 DEF
"When this face-up card on the field is sent to the Graveyard (unless it was attacked while face-down and destroyed by battle), you can draw 1 card."

Submarine Frog (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Submarine_Frog): Level 2, WATER, Aqua, 1200 ATK/600 DEF
"During battle between this attacking card and a Defense Position monster whose DEF is lower than the ATK of this card, inflict the difference as Battle Damage to your opponent."

Swap Frog (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Swap_Frog): Level 2, WATER, Aqua, 1000 ATK/500 DEF
"You can discard 1 WATER monster to Special Summon this card from your hand. When this card is Summoned, you can select and send 1 Level 2 or lower Aqua-Type WATER monster from your Deck or your side of the field to the Graveyard. Once per turn, you can return 1 monster you control to your hand to Normal Summon 1 "Frog" monster, except "Swap Frog" or "Frog the Jam", in addition to your Normal Summon or Set this turn."

Treeborn Frog (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Treeborn_Frog): Level 1, WATER, Aqua, 100 ATK/100 DEF
"During your Standby Phase, if this card is in your Graveyard and you do not control a face-up "Treeborn Frog": You can Special Summon this card. You must control no Spell/Trap Cards to activate and to resolve this effect."

(http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Unifrog)Unifrog (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Unifrog): Level 2, WATER, Aqua, 400 ATK/400 DEF
"This card can attack your opponent directly. When this card successfully attacks directly, if you control a "Frog" monster other than "Frog the Jam" or "Unifrog", you can destroy 1 Spell or Trap your opponent controls."

D.3.S. Frog (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/D.3.S._Frog): Level 8, WATER, Aqua, Fusion, 2500 ATK/2000 DEF
""Des Frog" + "Des Frog" + "Des Frog"
A Fusion Summon of this card can only be conducted with the above Fusion Material Monsters. This card gains 500 ATK for each "Treeborn Frog" in your Graveyard."

[~HELPOEMER~]

I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed.

Other than the fact that Frogs are pretty dead.

[manicania]

Are you joking? Lancer Frogs just recently topped YCS. And Irish Regionals. How are they dead?

[Pas_Eye_Cho]

Oh by looking at your join date, and amount of posts... you should as well as know that whenever a deck isn't dominating in the current meta it is considered "dead" despite it being able to perform just fine
Most of the time the difference is the broken combos aren't there and also the hundreds of dollars used by the TCG to squeeze out whatever money possible from people wanting to compete in the current money. Truth is... most decks can keep up, playstyle and build quality just matter that much more over the $1000 plays itself deck

[manicania]

Oh by looking at your join date, and amount of posts... you should as well as know that whenever a deck isn't dominating in the current meta it is considered "dead" despite it being able to perform just fine
Most of the time the difference is the broken combos aren't there and also the hundreds of dollars used by the TCG to squeeze out whatever money possible from people wanting to compete in the current money. Truth is... most decks can keep up, playstyle and build quality just matter that much more over the $1000 plays itself deck
Alright, I got ya, but still, why should that be a reason for this thread not to exist?

[Pas_Eye_Cho]

I am in support. People call a deck non-viable, event though the deck isn't dead.
I support your thread, there is no reason why it shouldn't exist. I promote discussion, it shall only better the game and steer people from playing the same deck.

[exodiasezwhat]

Alright, I got ya, but still, why should that be a reason for this thread not to exist?

Maybe you can help write up a primer in your first post and include the list of all Frog cards and their descriptions.

My contribution to the discussion is that there are so many Frog monsters that can mimic the name "Des Frog", so anyone ever go with Des Croaking or Super Polymerization into D.3.S Frog?

I also have a Hybrid Frog/Absolute Zero deck. When Gem-Knight Amethyst comes out, it'll be another card to add to the Extra Deck for a Frog Fusion deck.

[ChildOfTheAtom]

I've been fiddling with Lancer Frogs recently and they're a lot of fun, very consistent, and surprisingly good. I wouldn't be surprised to find this in the meta. It's probably $30 for everything, including the extra deck, which is fantastic since I've been looking for a budget build that I can mess around with.

[cyslim5]

Lancer Frogs are decent from what I've seen, but they have a very clear weakness to Veiler and (for those that Main it) Chalice.

[exodiasezwhat]

Here's a Return of the Duelist card that caught my eye:


Three Card
Normal Trap
If you control 3 or more face-up monsters with the same name, except Tokens: Target 3 cards your opponent controls; destroy those targets.

This is so easily achieved with Dupe Frog and Ronintoadin, with the latter being easily Special Summoned from the graveyard and/or ditched by Swap Frog. It'd add a lot more precision, although I still love Froggy Forcefield.

[Lord_Ivan]

I support this thread, didn't knew there wasn't one already for such a nice archetype, it will see the light of sun again in the future with the release of Forgotten Capital Lemuria, Lancer Frogs now can summon rank 4 from just 2 frogs on the field, Heavy Machinery King Doboku Zaku from 3, and 2 rank 6 Xyz with 4 frogs, that with also Diva being able to be a pseudo Tour Guide with Lemuria, summoning any rank 4 or go for any lvl 8 Synchro(with Atlatean Armsman), once Lemuria is on TCG, Frogs will see a lot of play again.

[DrkWizard]

Can someone post a Lancer Frog build and maybe go over some of the key combos with it?

[ChildOfTheAtom]

Sure thing.

Monsters:
3 Light and Darkness Dragon
3 Sea Lancer
3 Swap Frog
3 Ronintoadin
3 Dupe Frog (varies between players, 2 to 3)
2 Mother Grizzly (preference, some would rather choose CCD or TGU. This is budget though)
2 Battle Fader
2 Effect Veiler
1 Poison Draw Frog (most people go 2, I like 1)
1 Treeborn Frog
1 Sangan
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
1 Caius the Shadow Monarch

Spells:
2 Enemy Controller (some people like 3, I side the third)
2 Soul Exchange
2 Mystical Space Typhoon
1 Monster Reborn
1 Heavy Storm
1 Dark Hole
1 Book of Moon

Traps: (many people go trap-less. Some prefer traps)
2 Torrential Tribute (IMO this is a fantastic trap to run, considering Gachi and Lancer survive, and Dupe, PDF and LaDD bonus from it).
2 Solemn Warning

Extra:
1 Chimeratech Fortress Dragon
1 Formula Synchron
1 Ally of Justice Catastor
1 Brionac
1 Scrap Dragon
3 Gachi Gachi Gantetsu
2 Number 96: Dark Mist
2 Daigusto Phoenix (once its released in HA06)
1 Utopia Ray
1 Crimson Ninja
1 Tiras, Keeper of Genesis

General deck process:

+ The main idea is to get Swap Frog in the hand (or to the field with Grizzly) as early as possible. It's important to dump as many frogs in the grave as possible, as quickly (yet efficiently) as possible. This thins your deck, giving you quicker access to the tributes, spells and (for some people) traps. Follow this up with removing frogs for Ronintoadin to summon XYZ to protect/boost you, OR summoning Lancer, then playing the XYZ. Use Lancer to equip the removed frogs. This not only lets you use Dupe's/PDF's effects, but it lets you recycle them for more XYZ in the future.

+ Take advantage of your XYZ. Gachi Gachi is a fantastic wall, in addition to boosting your Lancer to 2700 or your LaDD to 3200 for an extra negate (good combo, btw). Dark Mist wrecks Chaos Dragons and any beatdown decks, but mainly dragons. Daigusto Phoenix is a good win condition, or good for getting in a quick 3000 damage.

Combos and Rulings:

+ Key combo for Lancer Frogs: Sea Lancer. Summon Lancer so they can't bottomless it. Then remove frogs from the grave (Dupe or PDF preferred) to summon Ronintoadins from the grave. XYZ with Ronins into Gachi (or Phoenix for game). Use Lancer's eff to equip UP TO 4 frogs that were banished. Don't do 5 because you need room for spells/traps. If Lancer gets destroyed, destroy one of the equipped frogs instead. If it was either Dupe or PDF, apply its effect for a +1.

+ If your opponent is running Dimensional Fissure, summon Sea Lancer and equip your removed frogs. Now that they're Spells, they are sent to the grave when they are removed from the field, helping you get around a possibly debilitating card. Macro Cosmos, on the other hand... Destroy that ASAP.

+ The above is also a good way to get back removed Ronins/Treeborns if your opponent Crowed them.

+ Using monsters to XYZ are also a good way to dodge D. Fissure. The materials are not monsters when they're sent to the grave; they're xyz materials.

+ Swap Frog's effect to return to the hand is a cost. If they Veiler it, just return it to your hand. Or return another monster like Caius, LaDD or Lancer so you can recycle their effects.

+ Gachi Gachi gives LaDD an extra negate with at least one material on it (3000/3200 LaDD). That one extra negate could be very useful.

+ If you're done with LaDD, use Treeborn in the Grave to reduce LaDD to 800/300/0 by activating its effect multiple times during the Standby Phase. Then feel free to play the cards you want.

+ Regarding LaDD: Keep in mind all things that DO and DO NOT start a chain. Gachi Gachi's destruction prevention effect DOES NOT start a chain. Neither does Lancer's destruction prevention. Summons also do not start a chain, so LaDD cannot negate them.

+ Be careful about Dupe's and PDF's timing. They can miss timing if they were sent to the grave for a cost, or in any scenarios where their effects aren't the last ones to resolve. If you use Swap Frog to return a Lancer equipped with a Dupe/PDF to your hand, Dupe/PDF miss the timing to activate their effects because the last effect happening is "... to normal summon or set an additional Frog monster..."

+ Sometimes its fun to MST your PDF or Dupe while its equipped. This is only advised if the situation allows it, and you feel comfortable doing it. It may also be fun to Book of Moon your Lancer with equips to not only get the equipped frogs' effects, but re-use Lancer's eff.

[DrkWizard]

Thanks for the prompt and detailed response, CotA :) I used to run FrogMonarch back when Fishborg was still legit so I have some familiarity but your post definitely fills in the gaps I had in the build's strategy. I'll definitely have to look into putting this together.

[drummer_shadow]

Question, and this may sound like a stupid one, but here goes:

If Dupe Frog is attached to Sea Lancer, would its effect "Your opponent cannot select another monster as an attack target." still work?

What I mean is would the opponent be unable to attack with out destroying the equipped Dupe Frog via MST, Heavy Storm, Scrap Dragon, etc.?

[ChildOfTheAtom]

Dupe Frog's effect only applies to itself because it specifically says "this card." Also, monsters equipped with other monsters do not gain those monsters' effects. Only the monsters as equipments themselves still retain rights to their own effects.

So, fighting for Light and Darkness Dragon has become a serious headache on DN. Ever since I've entered the 1000 range, every player I run against has to argue against LaDD, mostly regarding Gachi Gachi's effect not starting a chain, and not being able to negate past 800/400. I feel like a part-time lawyer. My opponents who don't understand usually just forfeit because they're tired of arguing (this has happened 4 or 5 times now). All of them tell me to read Light and Darkness Dragon. I claim it's the most complicated card in the game and the rulings are 3 pages long, and you can't just read [the card] to understand it. They say it's a very simple card. Seriously? Have you seen the rulings?

/end rant

So here's my new deck. I like this build a little better, but it's harder to run. If anyone wants to give it a shot, you're more than welcome.

Monsters (25):
3 Light and Darkness Dragon
3 Sea Lancer
3 Swap Frog
3 Dupe Frog
3 Ronintoadin
2 Poison Draw Frog
2 Battle Fader
2 Tragoedia
2 Effect Veiler
1 Treeborn Frog
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
1 Sangan

Spells (14):
3 Upstart Goblin
3 Enemy Controller
2 Mystical Space Typhoon
1 Soul Exchange
1 Dark Hole
1 Heavy Storm
1 Monster Reborn
1 Book of Moon

Traps (1):
1 Treacherous Trap Hole (so good in here)

Extra:
(same as previous deck)

[Lord_Ivan]

Dupe Frog's effect only applies to itself because it specifically says "this card." Also, monsters equipped with other monsters do not gain those monsters' effects. Only the monsters as equipments themselves still retain rights to their own effects.

So, fighting for Light and Darkness Dragon has become a serious headache on DN. Ever since I've entered the 1000 range, every player I run against has to argue against LaDD, mostly regarding Gachi Gachi's effect not starting a chain, and not being able to negate past 800/400. I feel like a part-time lawyer. My opponents who don't understand usually just forfeit because they're tired of arguing (this has happened 4 or 5 times now). All of them tell me to read Light and Darkness Dragon. I claim it's the most complicated card in the game and the rulings are 3 pages long, and you can't just read [the card] to understand it. They say it's a very simple card. Seriously? Have you seen the rulings?

/end rant

So here's my new deck. I like this build a little better, but it's harder to run. If anyone wants to give it a shot, you're more than welcome.

Monsters (25):
3 Light and Darkness Dragon
3 Sea Lancer
3 Swap Frog
3 Dupe Frog
3 Ronintoadin
3 Battle Fader
2 Poison Draw Frog
2 Effect Veiler
1 Treeborn Frog
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
1 Sangan

Spells (14):
3 Upstart Goblin
3 Enemy Controller
2 Soul Exchange
2 Mystical Space Typhoon
1 Dark Hole
1 Heavy Storm
1 Monster Reborn
1 Book of Moon

Traps (1):
1 Treacherous Trap Hole (so good in here)

Extra:
(same as previous deck)

Man that's almost a copy of my build, Some suggestions:

Add 2 Salvage, that card owns and is pretty much never dead because of Swap Frog, can get you a Swap+Frog to dump more cards or just to retrieve Sea Lancer since he is >1500 atk. For this I suggest to put the Soul Exchange in side deck against Swarm decks.

Put 2 Tragoedias in there, can work even if you have Lancer with equips on field and help for Xyz too(with copy eff), also sometimes happen when you can steal a boss monster dumping a LaDD(BLS I'm looking at you). IMO Tragoedia>Battle Fader

One card I consider too is Pot of Avarice, I know Avarice in Frogs?!, but since this frog deck work on a different way than the common ones you can get a lot of Xyz on the grave very quicly, that and being able to recycle the Tragoedias/Gorz/Sea Lancer/LaDD/Sangan make it a nice option here, anyway I find this card as "optional" since it can work different from player to player.

On last thing I have one question, sometimes happen when I have a Swap Frog+Sea Lancer with a lot of equips, here comes the question, if I send Sea Lancer to my hand as a cost of Swap Frog what happens to the equips? Do I only get one eff? or since all of them were sent at the same time they chain one to another?

[ChildOfTheAtom]

Man that's almost a copy of my build, Some suggestions:

Add 2 Salvage, that card owns and is pretty much never dead because of Swap Frog, can get you a Swap+Frog to dump more cards or just to retrieve Sea Lancer since he is >1500 atk. For this I suggest to put the Soul Exchange in side deck against Swarm decks.

I might tech 1, but I tried 2 and didn't like it because I didn't like opening with it. Testing to ensue!

Put 2 Tragoedias in there, can work even if you have Lancer with equips on field and help for Xyz too(with copy eff), also sometimes happen when you can steal a boss monster dumping a LaDD(BLS I'm looking at you). IMO Tragoedia>Battle Fader

My only gripe with Trag is that my hand gets pretty small quickly, but I'll be testing it.

One card I consider too is Pot of Avarice, I know Avarice in Frogs?!, but since this frog deck work on a different way than the common ones you can get a lot of Xyz on the grave very quicly, that and being able to recycle the Tragoedias/Gorz/Sea Lancer/LaDD/Sangan make it a nice option here, anyway I find this card as "optional" since it can work different from player to player.

No I totally understand, but I just don't like Avarice in here. Tried it, didn't like it. I want to keep my frogs in the grave, and I don't have any problem managing my xyz. Thanks for the suggestion though!

On last thing I have one question, sometimes happen when I have a Swap Frog+Sea Lancer with a lot of equips, here comes the question, if I send Sea Lancer to my hand as a cost of Swap Frog what happens to the equips? Do I only get one eff? or since all of them were sent at the same time they chain one to another?

Responses to deck suggestions in bold.

Regarding Swap Frog's returning Sea Lancer. The equips will miss their timing because the last thing happening is Swap Frog granting you the additional normal summon or set. This is only the case because Dupe Frog and PDF both say, "When this card... you can..." If it said "If... you can..." then you could totally do it. Alas, they miss the timing and you won't be able to get their effects.

EDIT: Been testing Trag and I love it, so I'll be keeping it. Previous deck updated. I've only lost once today, via God-hand X-Sabers. The record for the day is 11-1.

[drummer_shadow]

Dupe Frog's effect only applies to itself because it specifically says "this card." Also, monsters equipped with other monsters do not gain those monsters' effects. Only the monsters as equipments themselves still retain rights to their own effects.

So, fighting for Light and Darkness Dragon has become a serious headache on DN. Ever since I've entered the 1000 range, every player I run against has to argue against LaDD, mostly regarding Gachi Gachi's effect not starting a chain, and not being able to negate past 800/400. I feel like a part-time lawyer. My opponents who don't understand usually just forfeit because they're tired of arguing (this has happened 4 or 5 times now). All of them tell me to read Light and Darkness Dragon. I claim it's the most complicated card in the game and the rulings are 3 pages long, and you can't just read [the card] to understand it. They say it's a very simple card. Seriously? Have you seen the rulings?

/end rant

So here's my new deck. I like this build a little better, but it's harder to run. If anyone wants to give it a shot, you're more than welcome.

Monsters (25):
3 Light and Darkness Dragon
3 Sea Lancer
3 Swap Frog
3 Dupe Frog
3 Ronintoadin
2 Poison Draw Frog
2 Battle Fader
2 Tragoedia
2 Effect Veiler
1 Treeborn Frog
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
1 Sangan

Spells (14):
3 Upstart Goblin
3 Enemy Controller
2 Mystical Space Typhoon
1 Soul Exchange
1 Dark Hole
1 Heavy Storm
1 Monster Reborn
1 Book of Moon

Traps (1):
1 Treacherous Trap Hole (so good in here)

Extra:
(same as previous deck)


I like the new build. No more Torrential Tribute? I think I'll try this, but a couple changes:
-1 Treacherous Trap Hole
-1 Effect Veiler (budget...ugh...)
-1 Tragoedia (still nervous using him)
-3 Upstart Goblin

+2 Torrential Tribute
+2 Hand Destruction
+2 Salvage
+1 Battle Fader


Critique? (Other than the Effect Veiler lol)

Haven't tested this yet.

[ChildOfTheAtom]

I like the new build. No more Torrential Tribute? I think I'll try this, but a couple changes:
-1 Treacherous Trap Hole
-1 Effect Veiler (budget...ugh...)
-1 Tragoedia (still nervous using him)
-3 Upstart Goblin

+2 Torrential Tribute
+2 Hand Destruction
+2 Salvage
+1 Battle Fader


Critique? (Other than the Effect Veiler lol)

Haven't tested this yet.

Effect Veiler isn't necessary. I saw a build on pojo top 8 at a regionals without it back in March, so you don't need it.

The Torrential Tribute is a fantastic card in this deck, but I decided to try a non-trap route with 3 Upstart Goblin to speed it up. You are more than welcome to use TT. Treacherous Trap Hole acts like it, but it's a little more selective, and you can still destroy your own Dupe/PDF/Gachi/Lancer/LaDD.

Hand Destruction is really iffy. You don't want to speed your opponent up, just you. Not only that, but it's already really easy to dump frogs to the grave with Swap Frog, and there's nothing else you should be dumping. Upstart Goblin attempts to solve that. The 1000 LP boosts aren't much to worry about. You can still OTK with Phoenixes even at 10,000. (2 Phoenix + Gachi + Lancer = 10,700). I'll update that into the combos post.

Some like Salvage, some don't. I've seen arguments for and against. Here's my argument against it: So, if you top deck it late-game, it fails. Opening hand it fails. Its only purpose is to either bring back Swap, or bring back Lancer. If you don't have Lancer in the grave, you're just bringing back Frogs (which doesn't do you much good), and hopefully you haven't removed most of them from play via Ronintoadin by then. Dupe Frog already brings back Swap when equipped to Lancer or when being destroyed. LaDD brings back Swap or Lancer, too. Albeit it's not to the hand. Salvage does things your other cards already do, just in a different way.

So far, Tragoedia has been nice, but I've only used it for a little bit. Only use it in Trap-Light/Trap-Free builds so you don't set the cards in your hand to your field that would boost Trag. It's a great early-game beater, and it can at least help you stall until you get enough cards to do something. In addition, it's a decent LaDD target. Also, as Lord_Ivan said, you can discard LaDD to take a BLS or other Level 8 boss, or you can discard Sea Lancer to steal a Darkflare Dragon or level 5 Inzektor, use its effect to become level 5 from Lancer, then XYZ. You can also have it become level 2 and XYZ with a frog if its too weak on its own. There are a lot of options with it. Consider this as you test. You may like it, or decide to stand without it; it's up to you and your play style.

[drummer_shadow]

Effect Veiler isn't necessary. I saw a build on pojo top 8 at a regionals without it back in March, so you don't need it.

The Torrential Tribute is a fantastic card in this deck, but I decided to try a non-trap route with 3 Upstart Goblin to speed it up. You are more than welcome to use TT. Treacherous Trap Hole acts like it, but it's a little more selective, and you can still destroy your own Dupe/PDF/Gachi/Lancer/LaDD.

Hand Destruction is really iffy. You don't want to speed your opponent up, just you. Not only that, but it's already really easy to dump frogs to the grave with Swap Frog, and there's nothing else you should be dumping. Upstart Goblin attempts to solve that. The 1000 LP boosts aren't much to worry about. You can still OTK with Phoenixes even at 10,000. (2 Phoenix + Gachi + Lancer = 10,700). I'll update that into the combos post.

Some like Salvage, some don't. I've seen arguments for and against. Here's my argument against it: So, if you top deck it late-game, it fails. Opening hand it fails. Its only purpose is to either bring back Swap, or bring back Lancer. If you don't have Lancer in the grave, you're just bringing back Frogs (which doesn't do you much good), and hopefully you haven't removed most of them from play via Ronintoadin by then. Dupe Frog already brings back Swap when equipped to Lancer or when being destroyed. LaDD brings back Swap or Lancer, too. Albeit it's not to the hand. Salvage does things your other cards already do, just in a different way.

So far, Tragoedia has been nice, but I've only used it for a little bit. Only use it in Trap-Light/Trap-Free builds so you don't set the cards in your hand to your field that would boost Trag. It's a great early-game beater, and it can at least help you stall until you get enough cards to do something. In addition, it's a decent LaDD target. Also, as Lord_Ivan said, you can discard LaDD to take a BLS or other Level 8 boss, or you can discard Sea Lancer to steal a Darkflare Dragon or level 5 Inzektor, use its effect to become level 5 from Lancer, then XYZ. You can also have it become level 2 and XYZ with a frog if its too weak on its own. There are a lot of options with it. Consider this as you test. You may like it, or decide to stand without it; it's up to you and your play style.

So maybe adjust my changes by dropping the 2 Hand Destruction and 2 Salvage for +3 Upstart Goblin?

[ChildOfTheAtom]

So maybe adjust my changes by dropping the 2 Hand Destruction and 2 Salvage for +3 Upstart Goblin?

Well I don't want to take away from your personal tech to the deck. It's just important to know those qualities of the cards before and as you run them. If you like them, go for it. Honestly, you could replace those 4 cards with tech tributes, more traps, whatever. The Upstarts are a personal choice. Running 1 Salvage would be good, too. Just not 2.

[drummer_shadow]

Thanks for the information CotAtom.

What's everyone's take on Surface? I've been debating on using it in a Lancer Frog build or a Wetlands Beatdown build.

[Lord_Ivan]

Thanks for the information CotAtom.

What's everyone's take on Surface? I've been debating on using it in a Lancer Frog build or a Wetlands Beatdown build.
The only good target for it would be Swap Frog, So I don't think it could be useful as seing how other cards like LaDD(which can revive ANY monster), Ronintoadin and Salvage(can bring Sea Lancer too) can to the same and more, before it could be a better option since there wasn't an effective way to recycle your frogs once banished, so you would like to summon frogs without the need of banish them for Ronin but thanks to Sea Lancer you can use Ronin again and again so there is no need for it.

[drummer_shadow]

The only good target for it would be Swap Frog, So I don't think it could be useful as seing how other cards like LaDD(which can revive ANY monster), Ronintoadin and Salvage(can bring Sea Lancer too) can to the same and more, before it could be a better option since there wasn't an effective way to recycle your frogs once banished, so you would like to summon frogs without the need of banish them for Ronin but thanks to Sea Lancer you can use Ronin again and again so there is no need for it.

I see what you mean. It does summon the card rather than add it to your hand. It would be much more effective in a Wetlands Beatdown build I guess. Thank for the insight.

[Lord_Ivan]

I see what you mean. It does summon the card rather than add it to your hand. It would be much more effective in a Wetlands Beatdown build I guess. Thank for the insight.
I think you are referring to Salvage by that statement, but as you see you're adding Swap+another WATER monster so you can ss Swap if you want to(where you would have exactly the same field as with Surface), but besides that Salvage can add Sea Lancer too, being an extra bonus that Surface lacks of.

[drummer_shadow]

I think you are referring to Salvage by that statement, but as you see you're adding Swap+another WATER monster so you can ss Swap if you want to(where you would have exactly the same field as with Surface), but besides that Salvage can add Sea Lancer too, being an extra bonus that Surface lacks of.

I was referring Salvage. That's a goo point you made about Swap Frog special summoning itself. I hadn't considered that combo.

[ChildOfTheAtom]

So it's 5 days away from Ohio Nationals. I topped with Scraps, but I kind of don't want to use it. It's not as consistent or good as Lancer Frogs. Well, I think. It's quite the dilemma. We'll see after a couple of tournaments I go to this week.

Deck changed. Took out the Trags and 1 LaDD for 1 DDS, 1 Fader and 1 Obelisk. Obelisk single-handedly destroyed DW, Heroes and Wind-Ups last night, so I think it's time for a switch. Also, to make the extra TCG-legal, I took out the Phoenixes and put in 1 Shining Elf and 1 Galaxy Queen (Treeborn, Veiler and Fader).

[DrkWizard]

Just a thought, what about tech'ing a Quickdraw Synchron? QD + Treeborn = Drill Warrior and QD can also go w/ expended Lancer for Tiras/Adreus. Shouldn't be difficult to have a monster to pitch to SS QD...

[Lord_Ivan]

So it's 5 days away from Ohio Nationals. I topped with Scraps, but I kind of don't want to use it. It's not as consistent or good as Lancer Frogs. Well, I think. It's quite the dilemma. We'll see after a couple of tournaments I go to this week.

Deck changed. Took out the Trags and 1 LaDD for 1 DDS, 1 Fader and 1 Obelisk. Obelisk single-handedly destroyed DW, Heroes and Wind-Ups last night, so I think it's time for a switch. Also, to make the extra TCG-legal, I took out the Phoenixes and put in 1 Shining Elf and 1 Galaxy Queen (Treeborn, Veiler and Fader).
I can see Obelisk owning Inzektors too (they can't target Obelisk with Hunter so no +1's for them, and 4000 atk is something they commonly can't handle by battle) the only way out would be Dark Hole or Mirror Force(which is don't commonly mained in this format), or maybe Torrential if you dare to summon a monster after having Obelisk on field(which would be a risk move but can happen if you want to use the second eff by tributing some Ronin, only in extreme circunstances).

Don't remember where but I saw a thread about Shining Elf that said that he can be activated twice in the same chain making the opponent's monster lose 1000 atk, personally I can't see this happening since he have a Trigger eff but if this is the truth it could be in handy against Dino Rabbits.

Btw what do you think about TGU in Frogs? Leviar would be almost never dead and ss Swap Frog would lead to some nice plays.

[ChildOfTheAtom]

I can see Obelisk owning Inzektors too (they can't target Obelisk with Hunter so no +1's for them, and 4000 atk is something they commonly can't handle by battle) the only way out would be Dark Hole or Mirror Force(which is don't commonly mained in this format), or maybe Torrential if you dare to summon a monster after having Obelisk on field(which would be a risk move but can happen if you want to use the second eff by tributing some Ronin, only in extreme circunstances).

Don't remember where but I saw a thread about Shining Elf that said that he can be activated twice in the same chain making the opponent's monster lose 1000 atk, personally I can't see this happening since he have a Trigger eff but if this is the truth it could be in handy against Dino Rabbits.

Btw what do you think about TGU in Frogs? Leviar would be almost never dead and ss Swap Frog would lead to some nice plays.

I see nothing about Shining Elf being able to activate twice on the same monster. If more than one monster is summoned, you can detach 2 materials for 2 different targets, but you can't target the same one.

You probably wouldn't summon with Obelisk out. Maybe set, but not summon. You would probably wait for your opponent to activate it on their own turn. However, if the situation calls, you could tribute for it, then special 2 Ronins and tribute them for his effect. I've used his effect a few times. However, only do it if you're sure your opponent doesn't have a Starlight Road out. Usually it's better to just run over their stuff.

As for TGU, I've seen some builds run it. On the other hand, some run CCD. They claim either will make the deck more consistent, but TGU is only good for XYZ and getting Sangan to get Lancer. I don't think it's a big deal, and it just takes up more Water spots for Darks (meaning less synergy with Swap). I'm not testing it because I want to keep it budget, but you're more than welcome to give it a shot.

@DrkWizard: My first Lancer Frog build tested QD. I kind of liked it, but keep in mind it's harder than you think to sync with it. First of all, you can't sync with Ronintoadin. This limits your syncs to Battle Fader, Tragoedia, Treeborn Frog, Sangan and Swap Frog. Battle Fader and Treeborn Frog are the best targets, but they only hit level 6, which doesn't do much except Drill Synchron or Junk Gardna. Drill is great for recycling Frogs and boss monsters and would make up for Salvage, but it takes up a lot of resources to use.

[manicania]

So hey, I ddin't even realize until now that this thread had actually taken off, but I'm glad to see it has.

This is my current Lancer Frog build (also in my sig). A guy at my locals gave me a ton of amazing pointers on it, and I can't thank him enough (so to thank him, I suppose I'll link you guys to his YouTube channel. SinisterPlantBoy (http://www.youtube.com/user/Sinisterplantboy))

http://i.imgur.com/QlJkX.jpg

Monsters: 27
Swap Frog x3
Dupe Frog x3
Poison Draw Frog x2
Treeborn Frog x1
Ronintoadin x3
Sea Lancer x3
Mother Grizzly x1
Tour Guide From the Underworld x3
Battle Fader x3
Caius the Shadow Monarch x2
Sangan x1
Gorz the Emissary of Darkness x1
Light and Darkness Dragon x1

Spells: 13
Enemy Controller x3
Creature Swap x2
Salvage x2
Mystical Space Typhoon x2
Book of Moon x1
Dark Hole x1
Heavy Storm x1
Monster Reborn x1

Extra: 15
Gachi Gachi Gantetsu x3
Number 96: Dark Mist x2 (until Daigusto Phoenix comes out)
Shining Elf x1
Temtempo the Precussion Djinn x1
Number 17: Leviathan Dragon x1
Number 30: Acid Golem of Destruction x1
Leviair the Sea Dragon x1
Number C39: Utopia Ray x1
Adreus, Keeper of Armageddon x1
Tiras, Keeper of Genesis x1
Photon Strike Bounzer x1 (once I can get one)
Gaia Dragon, the Thunder Charger x1

Side:
D.D. Crow x2
Mobius the Frost Monarch x2
Tragoedia x2
Mystical Space Typhoon x1
Soul Exchange x2
Bottomless Trap Hole x2
Royal Decree x2
Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror x2
(Note: I'm not looking for suggestions on the deck, I'm satisfied with it how it is. However, if you'd like to ask me about why I run certain things or certain numbers of cards, please do.)

I'm really loving this deck. And, on an unrelated note, if you like water-based decks, Information (in my sig) is a really interesting one to check out.

[AgainstAllOdds]

3 Caius
3 Raiza
1 Thestalos
1 Mobius
1 Obelisk
3 Treeborn
3 Swap
2 Dupe
2 Ronintoadin
1 DDS
1 Gorz
2 Trag
2 Veiler
3 Fader
2 LaDD

3 E-Con
3 Soul Exchange
2 MST
1 Reborn
1 Dark Hole
1 Heavy


what do you think? :O

[Lord_Ivan]

So hey, I ddin't even realize until now that this thread had actually taken off, but I'm glad to see it has.

This is my current Lancer Frog build (also in my sig). A guy at my locals gave me a ton of amazing pointers on it, and I can't thank him enough (so to thank him, I suppose I'll link you guys to his YouTube channel. SinisterPlantBoy (http://www.youtube.com/user/Sinisterplantboy))

http://i.imgur.com/QlJkX.jpg

Monsters: 27
Swap Frog x3
Dupe Frog x3
Poison Draw Frog x2
Treeborn Frog x1
Ronintoadin x3
Sea Lancer x3
Mother Grizzly x1
Tour Guide From the Underworld x3
Battle Fader x3
Caius the Shadow Monarch x2
Sangan x1
Gorz the Emissary of Darkness x1
Light and Darkness Dragon x1

Spells: 13
Enemy Controller x3
Creature Swap x2
Salvage x2
Mystical Space Typhoon x2
Book of Moon x1
Dark Hole x1
Heavy Storm x1
Monster Reborn x1

Extra: 15
Gachi Gachi Gantetsu x3
Number 96: Dark Mist x2 (until Daigusto Phoenix comes out)
Shining Elf x1
Temtempo the Precussion Djinn x1
Number 17: Leviathan Dragon x1
Number 30: Acid Golem of Destruction x1
Leviair the Sea Dragon x1
Number C39: Utopia Ray x1
Adreus, Keeper of Armageddon x1
Tiras, Keeper of Genesis x1
Photon Strike Bounzer x1 (once I can get one)
Gaia Dragon, the Thunder Charger x1

Side:
D.D. Crow x2
Mobius the Frost Monarch x2
Tragoedia x2
Mystical Space Typhoon x1
Soul Exchange x2
Bottomless Trap Hole x2
Royal Decree x2
Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror x2
(Note: I'm not looking for suggestions on the deck, I'm satisfied with it how it is. However, if you'd like to ask me about why I run certain things or certain numbers of cards, please do.)

I'm really loving this deck. And, on an unrelated note, if you like water-based decks, Information (in my sig) is a really interesting one to check out.
Why the sided Tragoedia, aren't they good enough to be mained?
Why the random Mother Grizzly?
How are doing the TGU?, are worth the space? I think it does since the deck already main Sangan.
Why no Treacherous Trap Hole?

[manicania]

I think I will, at some point in the future edit the first post to include the different frogs.



Why the sided Tragoedia, aren't they good enough to be mained?
They're good, but they're not necessary in the main. They're sided for Chaos Dragon's and Hieratics mainly, to stop OTK's.

Why the random Mother Grizzly?
It's not random, it's an extra card to get Swap Frog out if I need to. I can also use it to get Sea Lancer out if I need to, mid to late game.

How are doing the TGU?, are worth the space? I think it does since the deck already main Sangan.
Tour Guide is amazing for getting Sangan out, and for Rank 3's (which come in very handy).

Why no Treacherous Trap Hole?
I don't own one, and I don't really find it necessary. But I'll consider it.

[Deckbuild]

I have found it interesting running frogs in a gishki ritual deck because of Flip Flop Frog's ability and the others as well. The frogs send cards back to the hand and the ritual monsters lay down the hurt. Not an ideal deck, but it works

[manicania]

I will be updating the original post to profile each of the different frogs. I don't think I'm gonna do more than simply state their name, stats, and effect, because it would be too much effort to detail all the different uses for them.


I have found it interesting running frogs in a gishki ritual deck because of Flip Flop Frog's ability and the others as well. The frogs send cards back to the hand and the ritual monsters lay down the hurt. Not an ideal deck, but it works
I'm actually really glad to hear you're experimenting with this. Because I believe Frogs have all kinds of untapped potential. So keep at it! :D

[Deckbuild]

it can be used as a stall deck as well. its useful to send powerful monsters back to the hand

[manicania]

it can be used as a stall deck as well. its useful to send powerful monsters back to the hand
Would you mind posting a deck profile, or a screenshot of a deck from Dueling Network? I'm interested to see the build.

[manicania]

So guys, Cosmo Blazer has something Frog decks can abuse really well. A 2900 beater that requires one tribute. With a Dark Hole-like effect.

I present you with Ancient Shark Hyper Megalodon (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_Shark_Hyper_Megalodon).

[dantheoo12]

That is one niiiice card.
In my Lancer Monarch Obelisk build, that could easily bump over my 3 Caius the Shadow Monarchs over to the side.
I've recently been giving Frogs a lot of time, and they seem to test pretty well. Nothing really destroys it, it has pretty good matchups with current meta, and Light and Darkness Dragon has always been a monster of a card.

[Batsmak]

So guys, Cosmo Blazer has something Frog decks can abuse really well. A 2900 beater that requires one tribute. With a Dark Hole-like effect.

I present you with Ancient Shark Hyper Megalodon (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_Shark_Hyper_Megalodon).

Unfortunately, That thing only had that effect in the Anime. The actual card still needs 2 tributes, and only can kill 1 monster when it does battle damage. It's pretty bad.

On a different note, has anyone been trying Moulinglacia in Lancer Frogs/Frog Monarchs? I'm planning on throwing Frogs together again for the first time in a while, and it seems like a good card to run as at least a 1-of, maybe 2.

[dantheoo12]

I find that Moulinglacia is a very good card, but with frogs which can manipulate quite well, there are other boss monsters. It could be nice at 1, but the reason it's so good in MerLantians is because Dragoons searches it, making it so much more live. Also, it's not too great late game, since frogs have their graves pretty much full of all frogs they have, and frogs are a grind style deck, meaning they go late pretty often.

[xssj4_gohanx]

-1- Airorca (http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/yugioh_single_card.asp?cn=Airorca)
-2- Debris
-3- Diva
-3- Dupe Fwog
-1- GORZ
-3- Ronintoadin (http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/yugioh_single_card.asp?cn=Ronintoadin)
-2- Stickers
-2- Skystarray (http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/yugioh_single_card.asp?cn=Skystarray)
-2- Snowman
-3- Swap Fwog
-2- Wingtortise
-1- Sangan (http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/yugioh_single_card.asp?cn=Sangan)
-2- Tour Guide
-2- Treeborn Fwog
-2- Caius

-2- Creature Swap (http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/yugioh_single_card.asp?cn=Creature%20Swap)
-1- Dark Hole (http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/yugioh_single_card.asp?cn=Dark%20Hole)
-1- Heavy
-1- Reborn
-2- Typhoon
-2- Pot of d
-2- Salvage (http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/yugioh_single_card.asp?cn=Salvage)

-1- TTH


-1- Catastor
-1- Ancient Fairy
-1- Armory Arm (http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/yugioh_single_card.asp?cn=Armory%20Arm)
-3- GA-CHI GA-CHI
-1- Iron Chain
-1- Leviair
-1- Black Rose
-1- Gishilnodoon
-1- Stardust
-1- Hyper Lib
-1- Thought Ruler
-1- Zenmaines
-1- Leviathan


-2- Veiler
-2- maxx c
-1- typhoon
-2- tkro
-1- mind con
-2- ced
-3- reaper
-2- vanity emptiness

[bystander79]

OK put together a Frognarch.

Would like the players that are good with this engine to comment on my deck:

http://forum.tcgplayer.com/showthread.php?331960-Monarch-Garage-Frog-Engine

[ragda]

Been messing around with Nimble Frogs, and it's been proving to be a fun deck! Lemuria shenanigans, Lancer/Obelisk/LaDD/Monarch gimmicks. If only if the Fishes can somehow be banished from the GY for some Lancer interaction. I need to look into some Fish support to find some workaround I guess.

[bystander79]

no comments for my Frognarch deck?

[manicania]

I'm not really familiar with Frognarch's. I just play Lancer Frogs, really. I tried out Nimble Frogs, but didn't like 'em that much. But I have ideas I still want to try with that deck.

Here's my current Lancer Frog build, if anyone's interested. It does really really well. Although I haven't entered tourney (missing 2 cards and some side deck stuff.)

Monsters: 27
Sea Lancer x3
Swap Frog x3
Dupe Frog x3
Ronintoadin x3
Battle Fader x3
Poison Draw Frog x2
Tour Guide From the Underworld x2
Caius the Shadow Monarch x2
Light and Darkness Dragon x1
Sangan x1
Mother Grizzly x1
Gorz the Emissary of Darkness x1
Tragoedia x1
Treeborn Frog x1

Spells: 13
Enemy Controller x3
Salvage x2
Mystical Space Typhoon x2
Book of Moon x1
Creature Swap x1
Pot of Avarice x1
Monster Reborn x1
Heavy Storm x1
Dark Hole x1

Extra: 15
Gachi Gachi Gantetsu x3
Number 96: Dark Mist x1
Daigusto Phoenix x1
Wind-Up Zenmaines x1
Number 17: Leviathan Dragon x1
Muzurhythm the String Djinn x1 (Armor Kappa when it comes out)
Temtempo the Precusiion Djinn x1
Number 20: Giga-Brilliant x1 (Probably gonna swap out for Shyneet Magician once it comes out)
Number 30: Acid Golem of Destruction x1
Leviair the Sea Dragon x1
Number C39: Utopia Ray x1
Gaia Dragon, the Thunder Charger x1
Sword Breaker x1 (Photon Strike Bounzer once I can get one)

[bystander79]

I was suggested lancer for my deck, but I am thinking you need a dedicated deck like yours to run it.

But your deck has given me some ideas for my deck.

[manicania]

I was suggested lancer for my deck, but I am thinking you need a dedicated deck like yours to run it.

But your deck has given me some ideas for my deck.
Well, not specifically. Lancer is good in any Frog deck as a way to recycle your frogs. So just tech'ing 1 or 2 into a Monarch or Nimble build isn't a bad idea. But he definitely shines at his full potential in a dedicated build. I'm glad I was able to give you some ideas. :D

[bystander79]

I managed to get some testing in with him tonight. Works pretty well.

But I really need to run a 3rd Swap and a 2nd Ronin to banish the frogs to use Lancers effect.

I will post my new build of my deck tomorrow.

[bystander79]

Okay here is the newest version of my Frognarch (http://forum.tcgplayer.com/showthread.php?331960-Monarch-Garage-Frog-Engine) build.

[manicania]

Here is the Nimble Frog/Fish deck I've been playing around with. The extra deck is beyond tight, which is one of the biggest problems with the deck. But it's fun, and it hits really hard once I get set up.

Monsters: 27
Swap Frog x3
Dupe Frog x3
Ronintoadin x3
Skreech x3
Superancient Deepsea Coelacanth x3
Nimble Sunfish x3
Nimble Manta x3
Nimble Angler x2
Fishborg Launcher x2
Poison Draw Frog x2

Spells: 13
Lemuria, the Forgotten City x3
Moray of Greed x2
Salvage x2
Mystical Space Typhoon x2
Monster Reborn x1
Dark Hole x1
Heavy Storm x1
Pot of Avarice x1

Extra: 15
Gachi Gachi Gantetsu x2
Daigusto Phoenix x1
Number 96: Dark Mist x1
Temtempo the Precussion Djinn x1
Leviair the Sea Dragon x1
Wind-Up Zenmaines x1
Maestroke the Symphony Djinn x1
Photon Papilloperative x1
Snowdust Giant x1
Tiras, Keeper of Genesis x1
Photon Strike Bounzer x1
Number 11: Big Eye x2
Gaia Dragon, the Thunder Charger x1

[WarlordFrog]

Well the new sets are out (or coming out) so any new frog deck ideas or tech choices?

[BigStinkin'Ape]

Well the new sets are out (or coming out) so any new frog deck ideas or tech choices?

Has anyone tried glacia in frogs for an added element of control? (in theory) it would work like adding several copies of thestalos back to the monarch line, but give us a free summon and a 2800 "boss" monster to go over caius' head in case something 2500+ comes out.