Daily Discussion - Saviors First Thoughts!

[JStephens]

You spent the last weekend at the prerelease events, so now let's talk Saviors.

What are the Top 10 cards for constructed formats in this new set? What card will have the biggest impact on the Standard format for Regionals? Did Tooth and Nail get any new targets? Did Mono-Red get the help it needs to really be Tier One?

Is there any card in the set that will single-handedly give rise to a new archtype?

[Alec Redion]

pithing needle, twin cast, plow through Rieto, ?Soratami cloud chariot?

[kawaii_neko]

barrel is da house in limited, often netting you awesome board advantage by pumping those crazy handsize pump guys.

Blue moonfolk was a house as well, anything that return lands for a second use was awesome

[Galvatron]

red gets some decent stuff but black and blue just got even more cheating tech
green and white IMO got the shaft one of the best cards for red ive seen so far is rally the horde

[enigma6]

First off the top constructed card will be the unassuming but utterly sick pithing needle capable of shutting down the best stuff in the format such as shackles, vials, swords, tops, tribe elders, stones, jitte etc. This card is the new 4 of i expect to see 4 pithing needles bettween the main and sideboard of every standard deck ethier that or an answer. Other top cards will be Twincast and Thoughts of Ruin.

[Hookhand]

Twincast+Plow under.

[REZ]

twincast is the better card of saviors

[HMSnoopy]

pithing needle makes red tier one as well as breaking post rotation extended in half, twin cast seems good, but look for murmurs from beyond and sakura tribe scout to both see a good amount of play. The tribe scout allows for multiple turn 3 tooth draws which is faster than it has any bussiness being...
Murmurs from beyond fill the thirst for knowledge role without making you pitch your artifacts to keep it good. ( yay mono blue). Kagemaro will alsov see play in a lot of places as mutilates that can swing seem good. Akuta born of ash seems like a more agro nether spirit/shadow reprint that seems amazing post deathcloud.

[DaveOath]

My Initial Thought...

Kaho, Minamo Historian
Legendary Creature — Human Wizard
2/2

When Kaho, Minamo Historian comes into play, search your library for up to three instant cards and remove them from the game. Then shuffle your library.

X Mana, Tap: You may play a card with converted mana cost X removed from the game with Kaho without paying its mana cost.

WITH

Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Creature — Fox Samurai
2/2

Bushido 1 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)

If a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it from the game instead.

The Samurai of the Pale Curtain could fuel the Historian. For exemple, player the same Hinder 2 time per turn...

Could have a nice interection with the Celestian Kirin to.

[GenericKen]

Doesn't work. There's an FAQ entry on him.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/faq/sok

Sorry.

[DaveOath]

Doesn't work. There's an FAQ entry on him.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/faq/sok

Sorry.

Damn....

I did not read the frickin card completly...

Well, still good.

I guess that MUC could use that thing vs Tooth as a "first aid kit": Hinder, boomrang and twincast.

[GenericKen]

Not really. When you play a card that Kaho RFGs, you play the card itself, not a copy of it. Thus, the card goes to the graveyard (even if it RFG itself like the wishes, I think Kaho loses track of it), and you can't use Kaho to play it a second time.

Plus, he has summoning sickness. He's worse than frickin Archivist; he sucks. Leave him be.

[oggeh]

Plow thru reito won me several games, the guy with double pt as cards in ur hand works soooo goood, pithing needle is not that good on limited but so so so UBER in constructed!

[GoblinKing.Fxc]

My top 3 are
1. Pithing Needle - Soon to be in every decks sb atleast
2. Twincast - O wow...
3. Choice of Damnations - A splashable Death Cloud, Woot!

Some good commons//uncommons are
Ideas Unbound
Kiku's Shadow
Glitterfang

[shroomster]

wad abt sakura-tribe scout? useful addition to tooth n nail decks

[Mishra-]

i dont think twincast is as good as everyone says it is.

[Sirsoosage 234]

it is fork, except it in the best color. What is not good about that?

[TacoB]

You not looking at Twincast's possibilities in KBC aswell.

1) Fork your Kodama's Reach
2) Fork your Gifts Ungiven
3) Fork your Cranial Extraction

Also I think Thoughts of Ruin is going to be a bomb in KBC that Red needed. I think Oppresive Will may find a home in MUC. Sunder from Within is a exact copy of Demolish except for its casting cost of :2::r::r:. Pithing Needle will become Cranial Extraction of the set, reaching high values.

[Rakavolver]

Death Denied is better than Diabolic Tutor. For the same price, you get two critters rather than one. Look for Rock to be a factor at Regionals. Thoughts of Ruin may force Red Green to get back to a Ponza version, now that they have 3 good LD cards. Fork was a fantastic card back in the day, but once THE Deck (U/w) came around, it lost a lot of its specialness. Of course, Fork was red. Twincast is blue. You Bribery me? I'll Bribery you. Cranial Extraction me? I'll Cranial Extraction you. Neat card.

Is there ANYTHING that gives White Weenie help besides Pithing Needle? Because it sure needs help.

Tooth got more help? That's nice. I guess WotC didn't think Tooth and Nail decks were strong enough. Third turn Tooth. I'm this close to quitting this game if 3rd turn Tooths become common.

What gifts did 5C Gifts get?

[Galvatron]

jack squat thats what mabye twincast or eternal dominion

[Rakavolver]

The "three best" decks in Betrayers Standard are touted as being MUC, Tooth, and Ponza, but I don't think they are the "best" three at all, rather the "Big 3," i.e., "the decks to BEAT," not necessarily the "decks to PLAY." The community has seen these decks coming from a mile away and has commendedly risen to the challenge to beat them, such that, very much in my NOT humble opinion, they form a very strong SECOND tier of decks.

I personally think the top three Betrayers Standard decks all have 4 Trolls and 4 Swords of Fire and Ice, and those decks IMO are Beacon Green, GREEN/Red Beats, and GREEN/blue aggrocontrol. GREEN/black has proven to be a spoiler, good but not quite good enough. But now?

IF as has been said black and blue got the greatest gifts, then prepare for Rock to catapult into Top Tier status in Saviors Standard, and for MUC players to be licking their chops for a return to same. Standard is wide open again and that's fine with me. I make these statements based on what I'm seeing go on in actual tournaments. It's not just theory. You can almost throw out the Invitational Standard results since the Pros came with widely diverse preparedness for the Standard environment, but still there was neat stuff there like Monoblack Rats, Osyp's burnerific almost-Ponza monored build, and Terry Soh's very unique build of Tooth. Nassif went 3-0 also with his MUC, while the other MUC went 0-3, and the other Ponza builds were all over the place. 5C Gifts didn't fare very well, but that deck can be built about a million different ways, and that's not just hyperbole.

Just my 2 cents, as always.

[Mishra-]

opressive will is awful.itd rather run condescent mana leak hinder rewind thoughtbind over it.theres better 1 blue mana counters too like mana and condescend.Also, i doubt MUC will use twincast, as counter spells are better in that deck.there relaly not much use for twincast in standard at the moment.maybe KBC or extended?

[Rakavolver]

Go to the Premium side of this site, and read Kai Budde's review of what he feels is the 2nd best blue card in Saviors for Standard (after Twincast), which is this:

Meishin, the Mind Cage
4UUU
Legendary Enchantment
All creatures get -X/-0, where X is the number of cards in your hand.

Sure the card is expensive, and obviously intended for Mono Blue thanks to the UUU, but so? It's not like you're playing a color that doesn't extend games, or often has a nearly full hand. This looks like a card that will defintely be one of many that define the Standard metagame.

[Chainer9999]

The unassuming Pithing Needle, the incredibly-hyped Twincast. These are the two biggies.

The two Knights look good(I acquired 4 of the white ones at the prerelease, it'll see play, trust me), and I'm thinking that Ideas Unbound will be the new Meditate. I think that white-based control could become possible, with the Kirin and Reverence.

[silverwolf727]

The thing with Meishin though is that if it stops the creatures that attack MUC from dealing damage (-X/-0) it will also stop MUC's creatures from killing the opponent. If MUC runs this they need a new way to win the game. I personally think that barrel down and Thoughts of ruin will become a big thing for ponza decks. My friends and I proxied and built decks using saviors cards and using those two spells ponza can be a real problem. This might be why the tribe scout was printed as it allows tooth to go off before ponza could stop it cold. Now is the time to pick up those pithing needles!!

[Jellybeanz]

anyone with half a brain can see this set is gonna have 2 big bombs just like each set prior had 2 or more. Twincast and Pithing Needle. champions had cranial,kokusho,meloku,kikijiki,ide even consider senseis top a bomb card. Betrayers had jitte and some other cool stuff.

[DaveOath]

Go to the Premium side of this site, and read Kai Budde's review of what he feels is the 2nd best blue card in Saviors for Standard (after Twincast), which is this:

Meishin, the Mind Cage
4UUU
Legendary Enchantment
All creatures get -X/-0, where X is the number of cards in your hand.

Sure the card is expensive, and obviously intended for Mono Blue thanks to the UUU, but so? It's not like you're playing a color that doesn't extend games, or often has a nearly full hand. This looks like a card that will defintely be one of many that define the Standard metagame.


Yeah, I alsonotice that card and right now, it's value is very low. So even if it's not play it's not risky to get 4.

[SRmogg]

Yes, we coudl see Kai's reveiw on thsi premium but on ******** we get Zvi's. Zvi ranks Kataki as a great answer to post-rotation Affinity, and says how great Reveerance is.

I whoel heartidly agree with him. Reverance is amazing. I THINK mwc WILL FINALLY BE A GOOD DECK NOW. tHOUGHTS OF rUIN WILL MAKE rED GOOD IN KBC. Ignore caps. Twincast is immensly over hyped. Immensly. Meishin sounds good, bnut not to good. Ideas Unbound is fairly powerfull. Kagemaro deserves to be mantioned. PITHING NEEDLE IS RIDICULOSE IN T2,EXTENDED, and BLOCK. In extended it shuts down ravager and Tog. In T2, well bye bye Shackles. In Block it shuts down Hana Kami. it is great.

[Dyne]

well, to start off, i think all the 4cc kirin's are amazing, 3/3 fliers and there abilites, out standing. second, i wanted to address how Kaho would work. you do not put the romved from the game card into the discard pile, it stays removed from the game. have u ever heard of a card called isochron scepter, because it also let's u PLAY the card it removed, and i don't c it putting a card back into ur graveyard, do u. the cards stay removed, and it gives u choices, as u could play any 1 of the 3 cards at any given time by tapping and paying the mana cost of the chosen card. what on earth would make u think it would put it's self in the grave yard if it doesn't say it would, geez.

[DaveOath]

well, to start off, i think all the 4cc kirin's are amazing, 3/3 fliers and there abilites, out standing. second, i wanted to address how Kaho would work. you do not put the romved from the game card into the discard pile, it stays removed from the game. have u ever heard of a card called isochron scepter, because it also let's u PLAY the card it removed, and i don't c it putting a card back into ur graveyard, do u. the cards stay removed, and it gives u choices, as u could play any 1 of the 3 cards at any given time by tapping and paying the mana cost of the chosen card. what on earth would make u think it would put it's self in the grave yard if it doesn't say it would, geez.

I think your wrong.

Isochron says that wuou play a copy of the imprinted spell.

Kaho say that you play the card remove from the game. The card play with Kaho goes is the graveyard.

From the Saviors FAQ:

Kaho's activated ability refers only to cards removed by its triggered ability. If another effect removed the cards, you won't be able to use Kaho to play those cards.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/faq/sok

[GenericKen]

Important cards that haven't been mentioned- from my Underappreciated SoK cards thread:

Glitterfang - For some reason, everyone on these forums focus on how he enables the turn 1 win in Limited, rather than the fact that he's a massive and inexpensive recurring spiritcraft trigger; he's just looking for a deck to fit into.

Elder Pine of Jukai - One of the strongest card generators in standard, often turbo-ing out in an arcane deck (which already has kodama's reach).

Shifting Borders - So blue gets instant-speed land d, hm? Break-up urzatron, color-hose stalled agressive decks, steal stones, steal blinkmoth, steal genju, and absolutely ruin Boseiju out of the SB? One of the strongest SB blue cards for a while now, alongside spectral shift.

Infernal Kirin - The best Kirin in SoK, if only because the black shoal is the most versitile. Also, 3/3 Flier for 4 is pretty dang efficient for black.

Arashi, the Sky Asunder - Not entirely underappreciated, it's excelent for MGA vs WW, perhaps replacing the Sniper in the SB, and is an uncounterable wipe vs Meloku. The only really playable channeler.

[Sibtiger]

The thing with Meishin though is that if it stops the creatures that attack MUC from dealing damage (-X/-0) it will also stop MUC's creatures from killing the opponent. If MUC runs this they need a new way to win the game.
Because blue control decks ALWAYS win through combat damage.

[GenericKen]

Given that meloku is one of the biggest houses in standard, I'd say yes, combat damage is almost always how MUC is winning its games nowadays.

Plus, your own Thirsts for Knowledge make the decking strategy tricky as well, esp in the mirror.

[dark_knight_307]

:D Needle
:D Spoon
:D Super Extraction

Pithing Needle - Needs no explanation.

Twincast - Ditto.

Neverending Torment (sp?) - definately a card worth more then just considering. Combos easily with channels and Tomb of Urami, it just simply seems great. You play this, then Tomb and activate, you pretty much just won. Their resources will be pin-pointingly dwindling, and in case they end up killing your 5/5 monster, they will have to waste time doing so, and they can mill themselfs out.

[Sibtiger]

Given that meloku is one of the biggest houses in standard, I'd say yes, combat damage is almost always how MUC is winning its games nowadays.

Plus, your own Thirsts for Knowledge make the decking strategy tricky as well, esp in the mirror.
Has Flores taught you nothing? Look to the past for examples of successful strategies. Of course blue decks win through combat damage NOW, but they certainly have not always. A card as powerful as Menshin might cause a reconfiguration of win conditions.

Plus...you could just leave it out, then Boomerang it back when you're ready to kill them.

[Mrgrimm210]

I think your wrong.

Isochron says that wuou play a copy of the imprinted spell.

Kaho say that you play the card remove from the game. The card play with Kaho goes is the graveyard.

From the Saviors FAQ:

Kaho's activated ability refers only to cards removed by its triggered ability. If another effect removed the cards, you won't be able to use Kaho to play those cards.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/faq/sok


I actually got the head judges ruling at the prerelease last weekend, and he told me that the cards stay in the removed from game zone until something else removes them, meaning you have you choice of three instants every turn regardless of how many times you play them. So yeah, Kaho is pretty damn interesting.

[Rhino408]

Yeah SoK was pretty disappointing. There are maybe 5 rares I like 2 uncommons and like 2 commons for constructed.

Limited though it's infinitely greater than Betrayers.

[Sibtiger]

I actually got the head judges ruling at the prerelease last weekend, and he told me that the cards stay in the removed from game zone until something else removes them, meaning you have you choice of three instants every turn regardless of how many times you play them. So yeah, Kaho is pretty damn interesting.
Sorry, but I'm positive the judge made an incorrect ruling. Kaho clearly states that you play the card removed from the game. Playing a card involves putting it on the stack, and then putting it into the graveyard if it's an instant or sorcery.

[DaveOath]

I actually got the head judges ruling at the prerelease last weekend, and he told me that the cards stay in the removed from game zone until something else removes them, meaning you have you choice of three instants every turn regardless of how many times you play them. So yeah, Kaho is pretty damn interesting.

I think that the card play with Kaho goes in the yard, so it can be played again...

[senor_mono]

I agree that pithing needle will be big and that spork is overated, but why is no body mentioning Erayo, soratami ascendant? With a cheap cost and easy condition with ornithopters int the type 2 enviroment this couald really help out control. Theres also the blatantly obvios combo with rule of law, or if they reprint arcane laboratrory in 9th, to say " i win". I picked iup 4 at the pre-release for crap rares.

[Raksha Golden Cub]

Is pithing needle and twincast the only rares that are going to be the prize rares of this set? Arashi is a great answer for one of green's few weaknesses but i doubt his price will skyrocket. Erayo is way too conditional but still quite interesting. Infernal kirin is powerful but it doesn't pack the punch other prime black cards do. Thoughts of ruin is potentially good but it requires a deck that revolves around it...

[GH05T]

i never got to go... #sniffs#. anyhow, i was playing multiplayer agaisnt friends who had been and some of the stuff is rediculous.... reverence? Its stupid!!!! one person was playing a goblin deck ad never got the two goblin kings in his deck... he had three creatures which could attack all game.... :)

[So Mote it Be]

Well i bought three packs of Saviors today and spent almost 20$ Canadian and I am totally disapointed. Not only did I get crap rares, the uncommons are crap too, theres not one card that is playable. Why does Magic make such bad cards. I'm not buying any more.

[GibberingKami]

where are you buying your magic? $20 bucks CND sounds REALLY steep to me. Saviours boosters go for around $3.50-4.00 CND here. . .
your store is ripping you off.

just wondering. what do people think of the preconstructed Saviours decks. which one is the best? or sucks the least?. . .

the :w: :g: deck with the Kitsune Ascendant kinda sounds fun but does it work?. . .