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Themaninnavyblue
08-31-2009, 04:47 AM
Magic, a story of old and new


Let me first introduce myself and how I came to magic, before I go into the main topic of this article. My name is Tyler, this is my first article, but I have been playing magic for almost 7 years. In reality its probably more like 3-4 because I have left magic for chunks of time for various other reasons. I first started playing probably right before Mirrodin came out, but I did not start playing with the “new” cards at that time. I actually first started playing yu-gi-oh (yea I know, heart of the cards right?) but that was in middle school so don’t hold to much against me. Right after I became a freshman I saw some people playing magic in the library of our school. I was entranced by it, the look of the cards, the complexity and competitiveness attracted me right at the start. So I asked a good friend of mine to teach me how to play since he had a lot of cards, I should probably add he had a lot of OLD cards. So he dug out his old collection and made a black deck for me and he played green. I don’t remember much about the first time I played but I just got it, it came very natural. However I wasn’t taught quite the right way to play, but ill save that for another article. To move along I have come and gone, but always ive come back, but the current future of magic Is uncertain but it is devolving.

M10 a product in commercialism

I will tell you something before I continue with my article, I dislike M10, and it is a symbol of everything I have come to loathe about Wizards of the Coast. This is my reasons why I dislike and disagree with m10 in general and the rules that came along.

M2010 rules changes a lesson in logic

Battlefield, Exile, and Casting:
You know I actually don’t really care about this, I mean I think its stupid and doesn’t really help the game in any way. I mean most of my playgroup is 14-20 and I know of no one that is happy about this change, some people like me don’t care, and some people really hate it (some of the more aged gentlemen in our playgroup) why would wizards do something that at best the vast majority of magic will simply not care about. And exile just confuses new players, I kept saying that its stupid because how you would explain exile to a new player is by saying its removed from the game, and I was vindicated a couple weeks ago when a new player opened a pack of m10, and looked at a card and asked us what exile was (after a couple of minutes of raucous laughter) we settled down and told him it meant the card was removed from the game and the light bulb above his head turned on and he said “oh ok”. I mean what self respecting magic player looked at a card and went “HOLY SHAT MY MOTHERTRUCKING TOKEN COMES INTO THE BATTLEFEILD EEEEEEHHHHH!!!!!” this also begs the question who exactly came up with this change? I wonder if the designers of magic were sitting around the office one day and said “aw man coming into play is so un flavorful it makes me sad :( , "LETS CHANGE IT TO BATTLEFEILD” and then they all cheered and high fived each other. I mean come on.

Mana Burn:
Again this is another thing that I don’t really care about I just think it enables bad magic play, I really liked mana burn as a punishment for bad resource management, it really helped people actually think about what they needed to tap and etc. now it just lets the newer players yell “YEA!” and tap all there mana in one sweeping gesture for a lightning bolt leaving 8 mana in their pool.

Combat Damage:
This is the big one, this is one I really care about. I think the main reason is it just makes the combat step flat out less interesting. If anyone plays WoW tcg, they know what I’m talking about. I attack, you block, giant growth? Cool, I lose. There was so much you could do with stacking combat damage, the possibilities were almost limitless. But we can talk about combat damage in a tactical sense another time. I’m here to assault the “flavor” reason for taking it out. If you think about it, stacking combat damage makes sense, because people and things don’t die instantly, it takes a little time for someone to actually die passed the point of no return, for instance, you have your 1/1 Eager Cadet attack into a another 1/1, you stack combat damage, which means that both the creatures are fated to die, they have “Mortal Damage” on the stack, basically flavor wise they both have stabbed each other and are bleeding to death, then before they die you summon your Cadet back to your hand, basically returning him to his original state in your mind, and in play, the sword that was in him clutters to the ground as the other 1/1 falls to the ground bleeding from the sword wound. Also with being able to deal damage how you choose makes sense, lets say you have a Pyroclasm in hand, and a big beater on the table, you tell your minion to only “Hurt the opponents creatures” lets say deal 1 damage to all of their 3/3’s then you Pyroclasm and wipe their boards. Basically what happens now flavor wise with m10 rules, your opponent’s creature’s line up and your creatures goes “BAM BAM” and smashes them one after another like a mindless brute? Apparently your creatures have no restraint and you no control over them. Also with combat damage wizards is basically saying that there is no window between combat damage and your creatures dyeing, your two 1/1’s stab each other and immediately their heads explode and their hearts cave in and they crumple up on the ground. Sense there is no game time between lethal damage and them going to the graveyard. It just makes less sense then the combat system that we did have, and another thing is the last 10 years of magic cards were made with the fact that combat damage was stackable so many cards were designed with that in mind. So by taking that away you’re ultimately nullifying the past 10 years of cards you just made, smart business move!

Lifelink:
I understand why they took away the cumulative nature of Lifelink, although it made more sense then what they changed it to now, lets say you equip a Loxodon Warhammer onto a Rhox War Monk, your monk then precedes to smash your foe over the head with it, you gain life from the Warhammer and from the inherent nature of the monk. If you don’t buy that, lets say you have two Loxodon War hammer’s on one guy, doesn’t he smash the guy with both of them? Then wouldn’t you gain life from each hammer? And if they form some kind of super hammer wouldn’t the Lifelink enchantment be twice as strong? But no matter, I like them taking it away it just doesn’t make any sense.

Magic 2010 card pool, Death to the Blue Wizard

Counterspell. That is all that needs to be said about the state of affairs in Magic 2010, red got there Ball Lighting and Lightning Bolt cards that haven’t seen play in over 10 years, white got a better version of Crusade and one of the most efficient creatures magic has seen in a long time, Baneslayer Angel . Green even got some crazy stuff, Elvish Archdruid, Master of the Wild Hunt, and Great Sable Stag, all amazing cards that break the mana curve. Black got Doom Blade (a better terror) and Sign in Blood , both really efficient cards that are in many ways better cards than their predecessors, not to mention duress, didn’t we learn our lesson from Thoughtseize? What did blue get? Time Warp? Cool I guess but I hope that Zendikar is going to bring some of the hard control that is needed to have viable blue decks, I mean they made Cryptic Command, why cant they bring back Counterspell? It seems balanced in today’s environment and seems less powerful then some of the counter out there in the current tournament scenes, Pact of Negation? Cryptic Command? Remand? Counterbalance? Rewind? Oh well we all know they always print something insane in blue that they never should print, like Djinn of Wishes, now that is a card that is going to make its way into some crazy decks (Liliana Vess + Darksteel Colossus or Progenitus, YES!) but wait, when did blue become the color of ramping massive fatties into the field? Somewhere along the lines magic has lost its way, oh well, im always going to keep playing, I just hope Wizards of the Coast steps it up.

Xearodeath
08-31-2009, 05:08 AM
well iagree with lifelink and Combat damage(REALLY agree with you on that one)

but dude, just answer me this.

name a time when blue was NOT in a top tier deck, for the longest time BLue has always been in a top teir deck with counters sure CS is gone but others took its place, if you tell me that Cryptic command was bad for blue then quit now, cause thats jsut stupid, m10 was the best, most balance set i ever seen. every colour got something but blue for once.

i think zendikar will come out with good blue card but not broken ones

dek
08-31-2009, 06:39 AM
I'm pretty sure removing mana burn was a good thing. Imagine playing against combo elves. They'd sit there for another 10 minutes trying to figure out what they're going to tap and then play.

Demonbunny
08-31-2009, 09:07 AM
I'm gonna put this nicely....

You are utterly clueless about what makes a good coreset and have apparently learnt very little in your 7 or so years of experience with the game.

M10 is the closest Wizards have been in a very very long time to getting the coreset just right and finely balanced to such an extent that it doesn't hinder design for the upcoming expansions and block format.

About the rules:
Removing the damage stack has added alot more questions to the game and removed nothing. All its done is lower the powerlevel of the creatures with sacrifice abilities which in turn has opened up a whole new avenue for design.

Lifelink. This is how the rule use to work pretty much pre 6th edition. It was the introduction of the stack that messed up lifelink. Whats actually annoying about this rule change is that it took so long for fix of the orginal error. It was also the 6th edition changes that brought with them an unexpected twist, i.e the powervamp of sacrifice creatures which has always played havoc in set design.

Zone naming. This should actually have been done when the game was first created. By not clearly differenciating different zones of the game, you actually end up with huge limitations on design space, (yes, perhaps a better name than battlefield), but nonetheless it was desperately needed for a game that almost 20years old and needing some new avenues to explore.

Manaburn. Resource management? Come on, seriously, just how stupid does a person need to be to actually burn themselves by accident? This again was a needed step to open design space for the future if you ask me with almost zero impact on the game as the rule only really brought with it some cute combo's and fun cards like Pulse of the Forge etc.

Counterspell?!?! Are you freaking mad? Just look at how insane faeries were with the conditional 2cmc in Spellstutter Sprite and broken ambitions.
Besides, when last was the top quality 2cmc counter in the coreset, let alone a staple powerful blue card in general?
Its more like blue is always the favoured little child during block/expansion design, and at least Wizards are accepting this and giving those who don't play blue something in the coreset that can fight back to some degree.
Be honest, even with all the hate in the format, faeries are still competitive and able to bring the bacon home.

A very big design issue with coresets is that they restrict what design you can explore in the expansions. Me personally, I much prefer the counterspells etc being open for the expansion to see what it brings. All the good counterspells have come from expansions, including all the counterspells you mention save Rewind that was printed in a coreset.

Its important to understand that blue is inherently the most powerful colour in magic, and its all down to how much the colour lends itself to exploration in design. Blue is limitless in all the wonders one can explore when designing cards, to such a degree that one spends a heck of alot of time on blue for purposes of keeping in check.
Heck, just look at the other colours, the most 'broken' green's gotten is Tarmogoyf (apparently so broken that Wizards even apologised for designing the card) and even that is overshadowed compared to what is available to the general UB Faerie deck. (Oh, and no, I don't hate faeries, enjoyed piloting it to an undefeated record at regionals last year actually)

Perhaps try downloading magic set editor and then design your own coreset and then from there design an expansion to follow on from it and then maybe you'll realise just how restricting on your design a coreset can really be, especially when you want such powerful blue counters in the coreset. Good luck designing a balanced block environment while keeping all implications on type 2 in mind.

Themaninnavyblue
08-31-2009, 03:04 PM
Mr.Demonbunny, nice name by the way, are you 12? you think im joking but im actually asking you your age. my assault on the m10 rules changes was an assault on the flavor and decision making process involved, i actually dont care about any of them except combat damage, being able to stack combat damage flat out increases the number of things that can happen in magic, therfore making the game more complex and exciting, taking away combat damage stacking just dumbs the game down, it makes plays a lot more predictable. a even bigger thing that went along with it is the loss of being able to assign combat damage, it just doesn't make any sense and makes cards like harms way just insane as ****, so yes sacrifice creatures get the shaft, but damage prevention is now overpowered.

magic 2010 is not a core set
wait what? they say it is on magic the gathering, but the fact is its not, its just another set, because it was created in a vacuum there is a distinct tribal ring to 2010, many of the cards have synergy with each other. and sense it takes the place of a core set, and half of the set being new cards,and being released every year instead of every 2 years. this destroys the value of many peoples collections, it also limits the number of older cards that can be played. it used to be that someone could buy cards and be able to play them for at least two years in standard, now people have to spend twice as much to stay in a current environment, buying cards from the "core set" twice in a format.this is actually a horrible business move and hits the pocket books of players worldwide. look at every other TCG that had fast turnover in sets, Versus, Dune, lord of the rings, every single one of those games failed because people had to buy to much product to stay current, i mean dune released a set every 90 freaking days,people just stop playing the game its that simple. another thing is you can see that magic is simplifying and devolving the game, that much is apparent, i mean look at duels of the planeswalker, they dont even have an end step. i think magic is gearing toward basically what WoW tcg is, they have a draw phase, action phase, and end phase. Wizards of the coast wants to move the game to where it has one phase, where you can take your draw for the turn untap your ****, etc...etc... and its probably going to be named the SMASH PHASE!!!!!!! hahaha you think im joking im dead serious. thats what they are aiming at. so we can look forward to our SMASH PHASE with our battlefields and exiles. o and by the way, 9th and 10th edition were the apex of core set technology. those were beautiful and perfectly balanced with the sets they interacted with.

Countermagic
what about mana leak? that was printed in a core set, hell id rather have that then the negate "remove soul" **** they have now, heck id even take memory lapse, force spike? no no am i denied? are those really that "overpowered" and before you answer that look at some of the other cards that have been printed in the past years and say that you wouldent have minded having counterspell against affinity, or Zoo, or even white weenie.

siopao
08-31-2009, 05:35 PM
2cc counters balanced in the meta? are you ****ing stupid? a 2cc counter backed by some decent form of card draw (jace anyone?) means if mono blue permision plays first, the only spell youd ever resolve is the one drop you play first turn. tell me how thats balanced?

and bunny is right, blue hasnt been nerfed at all yet. its just been balanced. your just too used to imba blue to realized that. give me one tourney where blue as a color is underrepresented and ill take back everything i said.

i do however agree with the coreset being replaced yearly as a bad move. i might have to move to stop playing standard and play extended now.

Themaninnavyblue
08-31-2009, 05:56 PM
you probably haven't played against much counter magic, in certain decks resolving one threat against a all counter deck can almost be enough. but no one plays mono saturated control anymore, its a dead archetype at least in standard. and im not saying Add Counterspell to the list of counters already in m10 im more talking about replacing some of the worse counter cards in m10. personally i would take out flashfreeze (i mean come on, thats blue's color hoser?) negate, and counter. add mana leak and rewind, maybe even time stop. or just counterspell, the point is 2cc isnt that crazy because its not like your going to have 20 of them in your deck, you would have one 2cc slot. but anyway the point is you cannot play mono blue in this format because you just dont have the answers avaible, with lightning bolt, hellspark elemental, and ball lightning a blue player is looking at untapping on their third turn at 8 life, yea you will want to cast jace alright.

dek
08-31-2009, 06:06 PM
I aprove this message

Rakavolver
08-31-2009, 06:10 PM
Mr.Demonbunny, nice name by the way,

I think he's a fan of the film, Donnie Darko, but that's just a guess on my part. Or maybe he found the thought of bunnie rabbits leaving chicken eggs around backyards on Easter not exactly something a good diety would do.

Interesting take to think of M10 as NOT a core set. Yeah well, Hasbro wants more cards from Wizards (4 sets per year now), so it looks like they got their wish.

siopao
08-31-2009, 08:34 PM
im not saying mono blue is awesome right now. admitedly making monoblue out of just m10 is a really bad idea. im saying a 2cc hard counter will make blue too powerful. not alone mind. of course things like path and wrath are all there to back it up.

you have to remember that counterspells are basically answer everything cards with a timing requirement as the only draw back. vindicate is great right? well for 1 mana less you can mimic its effect and then some. you cant really compare how many more uses counterspell has over, say for example, lightning bolt. there just really is no comparison over the difference in powerlevel.

Demonbunny
08-31-2009, 10:16 PM
Mana Leak in something like Faeries wasn't fair when it was around. The issue about effectively giving blue too many effectively 'non situational' 2cmc counter, the blue based decks just become inherently unbalanced.
Remember Timespiral and Teachings Control. That format didn't have 20 2cmc but did prove that having 8 effectively 'dead' counters in the form of runesnag and mana leak was actually pretty close to enough for blue based control to dominate.
I honestly believe having 'situational' 2cmc counters in the core with the only truelly 'dead' counter being in the expansions allows for a much more balanced and enhanced format.

Regarding the 4 sets thing. We've effectively had 4 sets a year now for something like 5 or 6 years, so how can it be a new thing Wizards or the 'evil' Hasbro has introduced 'now' to milk us players? Magic over the last year or so has seen a dramatic decrease in the number of cards a player needs to possess compared to previous years.

Another thing, about the coreset being 50% new cards. I reckon that was pretty much a once off with many of the cards being simple renaming and 'fixers' of staples from the previous coresets. Its probably going to be more in the region of 25% to 30% new with the remaining cards forming the core 'reprints'.

Rakavolver
09-01-2009, 06:00 AM
Themaninnavyblue, please don't start a post with "are you 12?" and Demonbunny, please don't start a post with "I'm gonna put this nicely....You are utterly clueless," because what each of you are doing is injecting emotion into what should be a logical discussion, and simply put: doing so will unlikely end well, for either of you. It's FINE to feel emotions about this stuff, just ... don't start out that way. Disagreement is inevitable. But please, you cause great discomfort amongst the readers and fellow posters when you begin with emotion, let alone make an enemy, unnecessarily, before you even get to your point! Thanks in advance, and remember ... "attitude is everything."

Back on topic: Hasbro isn't "evil" and I never said that. They're "profit-centered," as every company should be. My complaint is that they don't understand Magic as well as Wizards does. Wizards is their company, so we see who will eventually prevail. Magic ain't Monopoly, and in time I think (hope?) Hasbro will see the light. You don't run a CCG/TCG the same way you run a board game. More product doesn't necessarily translate into more sales, and in fact it can lose customers, i.e., lost sales. They lost me, for example. That was my point.

Rakavolver
09-01-2009, 06:05 AM
Also, Demonbunny, it hasn't been 5-6 years since they instituted 4-sets-per-year, it's only been 3, since July 2006 when Coldsnap was released.

Sure seems like 5-6 years though, I'll give you that. That's another reason to like and love Magic: it sure seems to compress time. More years in your years, know what I mean?

Demonbunny
09-01-2009, 08:03 AM
Actually Raka, if you're talking competive sets only, then yes, its 3 years, but as we know, Wizards like doing things subtly, testing the waters first, and well the 4th set thing started in 2004 with Unhinged when taking into account their subtle testing nature.

Its the same with Mythic Rarity. It wasn't actually only introduced during Alara Block but timespiral actually where Wizards testing the impact with the timeshifted and planeshifted cards from Timespiral and PlanarChaos, that all effectively had same rarity if being even more rare actually. Damnation's rarity is pretty much just as mythic as the mythics of today. The strange thing is how human nature impacts on things. As long as the cards weren't labelled as 'Mythic' rare their prices stayed in check, regardless of the fact that their rarity level were pretty much on par.

Rakavolver
09-02-2009, 04:06 AM
Bringing up 2004's Unhinged is a bit unfair, as it was never Standard-legal. Anyway, it was "Unglued II" really, being a second stab at "Magic Comedy" cards after 1998's Unglued set, both being a product of Mark ""Roseanne" "It's all about ME!" Rosewater's self-love and perpetual desperate plea by said egomaniac that he deserves continued employment, a situation that we will all be sadly subjected to, apparently, until the day he turns 65 (20 years from now ... or less?) and is forced to retire, praise the Lord and pass the biscuits.

A better example would have been 1995's Chronicles Constructed-legal set, but that was all reprints (especially the mighty Ernham Djinn!), but as I said they were reprints so that doesn't count either.

Also, are you implying that Damnation was LESS rare than the other rares from Planar Chaos? Hmm. Interesting if so. Can you back that up with something other than rumour and/or innuendo? If so, we have to blow up the Old Bailey with Evey watching with us on the roof, as we conduct a symphony on the loudspeakers. Explosives ready. Your move.

Demonbunny
09-02-2009, 08:36 AM
I don't quite understand the comment about Damnation being less rare than the other cards from planar chaos.
My comment was about how having Damnation and other such cards as Planeshifted or Timeshifted in the booster prints back then made their rarity the equivalent of Mythic.

Think about it.
We have 15 odd Mythic Rares a set. With an 1 in 8 or so chance to open any given Mythic.

With the Planeshifted cards specifically, there were only 3 slots in the booster allocated, with 2 being common and 1 being either uncommon or rare. The last slot was shared by all rares and uncommons with the uncommons being less rare than the rares. I'm not too sure about the timeshifted run but do remember it being 121 or so cards, and that you only got 1 of any one of those cards in your booster which was 16 cards for timespiral.

The impact was that the Planeshifted and timeshifted cards were MORE rare than the normal rares in those sets and were at a similiar rarity to the mythics of today.

Rakavolver
09-02-2009, 09:26 AM
Well for starters, the "Timeshifted" cards were all reprints. "Pastshifted" or "Pastsighted" or would have been a better term.

Also, be careful about the 1 in 8 thing regarding Mythics. I hear what you said, just be careful with the actual semantics. You were right, but some people think (incorrectly) that the Mythics are 8 times as rare as regular rares, where they are actually only twice as rare, but the confusion is such that people get confused (not your fault) as to how rare they actually are.

But twice as rare is still too rare, IMO. Yu-Gi-Oh is on the run and you needn't copy them any more, Wizards. Go back to the old style. Do what worked for over a decade, rather than try to re-invent the wheel (cough*copycat), thanks.

But will they listen? No. Why should they? That would just be good feedback recognition.

guyarney
09-13-2009, 07:19 PM
they lost me too.

Nosferatu Zodd
11-10-2009, 05:47 AM
Too much reading to do....