Post Rotation: Tooth And Nail

[darkmindtone]

While this deck has been getting both positive and negative attention here and pretty much on every other major forum I bring up the subject, the fact remains that this deck will be played next season. I am a firm believer it will be a top teir deck, but until the format of actual paper cards is defined, we will not know for sure. Since I don't think one has been given yet, I'll post my current post-rotation listing (which is still open to suggestions or ideas of course, as I don't know exactly what's going to come up with the new format for sure):

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Vine Trellis
3 Eternal Witness
1 Sundering Titan
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Triskelion
1 Mephidross Vampire

4 Tooth And Nail
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Reap And Sow
4 Moment's Peace
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
6 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Swamp

S/B:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Cranial Extraction
2 Naturalize
2 Sundering Titan
2 Platinum Angel
1 Bosieju, Who Shelters All
1 Blinkmoth Urn/Symbiotic Wurm/Duplicant/Pernicious Deed, etc.(basically my open slot)

The positives of this build is it is well equipped to hold off aggro, and still pose enough of a threat to handle control. The major negative I have right now is that I wish there was a G/B Talisman, but alas I have to make due with 10 green mana sources to fuel Trellis instead. Granted current Tooth in standard makes due with ten green sources a good amount of the time with relative success, but eleven would make me far more comfortable.

The deck I have right now is construted for a meta where the primary decks are Affinity, Goblins, Rock, R/G, Scepter, Tooth mirror, and Desire/Tendrils decks, and lesser played decks I may face are Tog, Wake, KCI, MBC, Fires, Slide, and others.

As a note, if red based sligh/burn decks make a showing, then Angel/Abunas may warrent a comeback, but until Goblins dissapear, Vamp/Trisk will be the weapon of choice for my version (The Angels in the board are meant for alternate win conditions versus Affinity, which is useful if a Mage is out and I either can't find a Deed or am not allowed to play it from a Mage).

Other variations of the deck play with cards such as Tranquil Thicket and Living Wish in the place of or in addition to Reap and Sow. This allows for slightly quicker land tutoring via having the Urzatron in the board, but lessens the consistancy of simply drawing into a piece, and takes up valuable sideboard slots. If it turns out to be superior to my current Reap version, then I guess that's the way to go, but as for now I enjoy the current setup.

Comments and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

[Myrrodin]

I wanted to make an extended Tooth. It's one of my favorite decks but I have a few questions for you.

What about:

Crop Rotation: Forest turns into a Urzatron piece (or 12 post, which may be faster in extended, we'll have to see).

Phantom Nishoba: Will rock on goblins big time. Kiki-Nishoba is a lot of damage and a lot of life very fast. Also, no matter how small the original becomes, the copy will always be 7/7.

Also, some things we might want to test.

Eladamri's Vineyard: Mana quick, though symmetrical, it can end up burning them :) .

Akroma/Rorix: Toothing for akroma rorix ends games quick, hasted beats with flying, and vigilance.

Symbiotic Wurm: More kiki awesomeness. Kopy (bad pun intended) the wurm with kiki, you get a 7/7 haste, and 7 1/1s when it dies. Looks good to me.

[frankcamper2]

dude both crop rotation and the vineyard are rotating out of extended however i love the idea of wurm it seems better than Darksteel Coloussus to me

other cards you might want to consider are blinkmoth well as a SB for septer and living wish which gives you more room to run forests and allows alternate wins in the SB

[darkmindtone]

dude both crop rotation and the vineyard are rotating out of extended however i love the idea of wurm it seems better than Darksteel Coloussus to me

other cards you might want to consider are blinkmoth well as a SB for septer and living wish which gives you more room to run forests and allows alternate wins in the SB

I already mentioned Blinkmoth Well and Symbiotic Wurm as possibilities in my open slot, but then again, He doesn't really do much more than Living Hive would do in Standard, and that's not played. And I already addresed that Living Wish is a possibility, but the fact that it makes you less likely to draw into the urzatron naturally, and takes up sideboard slots is why I neglect to include it. The positives of another 2cc tutor that can also fetch creatures, as well as being able to assist combating Extraction and Sowing Salt may outweigh the negatives though.

[klingon_master]

What about the pernicous deed? I don't see why this has to be in the deck? I like the idea of it just beeing green and using some of the other key cards of other colors in this. I got most of the cards for this except the 3 witness only $15 on ebay for 3 of course I guess. I don't like the deeds since there also used in rock there probably harder to get than any of the other cards in this like the angel or kiki-jiki even thought its worth about the same or a little less

[Chainer9999]

In the creature hold department, what do you guys think is better, Moment's peace or Tangle?

[HazaredTheOmega]

Moments Peace baby!

[DarkDeal]

The thing with Tooth in extended is it will HAVE to pack something to deal with creatures. Game one, Affinity will Meddling Mage your T&N and you will have to have a way to get rid of it. I like the idea of Deed, but I dont know about maindeck, and I dont know about the number. You could always get lucky and draw into a Triskelion to get rid of a Mage. As stated above though, Living Wish could add a lot to the deck, including a way to search out anti Mage. I also like that you can hardcast the Vampire if it comes down to it.

[klingon_master]

I wouldn't play pernicious deed even on sideboard. I wonder why people don't try to make it just a green tooth with something like birds of paradise or ororchi leafcaller so In case your tooth's ger cranialed then you can still play vampire, abunas, kiki-jiki. I don't see whats wrong with playing both vampire + triskellon combo and the abunas + platinum angel combo cause that is how I would play it. Is it required that you play the nonbasic land version with Urza's land and sundering titan or could it be made with snakes or elves or something else? on the other hand against elves it would be better not rely on creatures as another source of mana especially if you were playing elves. I would mainboard my one duplicant, play at least 2 mindslaver, and play one Kahaml, fist of krosa.

[Dark Light]

I have been getting tired of some people on the rock forum and I want to play test this deck vs. one of their (so called) "builds." I like the deck the only things is I will consider a slithly different version of the sideboard and I presume that with the Saviors cards coming out soon there maybe a green card that could replace T&N coming up, but since it is an epic spell it may be a bad idea. I feel like putting, something like this in the deck:

4 Engineered Plague
3 Cranial Extraction
3 Naturalize
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Platinum Angel
1 Bosieju, Who Shelters All
1 Blinkmoth Well
1 Pernicious Deed

I would like to use your build Darkmindtone. I'll report the results probably tomorrow or the day after. Also could some one please tell me why Cloudpost went away from the build? They seemed good on paper but I just want to know since I pretty much gave up playing standard because of Affinity.

[Master16]

i dont see duplicants in any of these decks. they help out so much against annoying creatures like mages/discipicles when your playing affin or scep chant.

[keyblade]

I think the deck shouldn't use Urzatron in Extended. I build closer to the current Trinity Green decks with Elves, Birds, Sakuras, and Kodama's Reach seems better to me. Possibly more straight accel. and a higher threat level would make the deck both faster and harder to deal with. Oxidize is very much required in the Board, otherwise you just lose to a sceptor chant lock.

[darkmindtone]

I think the deck shouldn't use Urzatron in Extended. I build closer to the current Trinity Green decks with Elves, Birds, Sakuras, and Kodama's Reach seems better to me. Possibly more straight accel. and a higher threat level would make the deck both faster and harder to deal with. Oxidize is very much required in the Board, otherwise you just lose to a sceptor chant lock.

You need speed to compete versus decks like Goblins, Affinity, and in a sense R/G. Oxidize is not needed, as Naturalize does the same thing with more versatility (Blinkmoth Well makes a resolved Sylvan Scrying almost game over versus Scepter as well).


Dark Light, thanks for trying out the build. I just did a set of testing games last weekend versus my friend playing G/B/R Rock, and Tooth just mutilated him. This is even though he drew an insane amount of Duress, Therepy, and Witnesses. Believe me, he was getting pretty tired of me just drawing a random threat and winning. I truely believe that extra Titans are needed in the board, as well as Extractions, as they will help the deck post-board once rock brings in their own Extractions. A single Titan will usually win the game for you, so if they get rid of Tooth with Extraction you are fine, and if he gets Titans first with Extraction, you can just Tooth for Colossus and Kiki and laugh at the Deeds in his hand/play.

[Dark Light]

Yes but keep in mind that I am not testing just the usual decks like BG and RGB I will be testing with the WGB rock and I know the match will be decided by turn four for both decks game one and by turn five next game. I do know that since your deck runs the Deed it will make the match very close and hard to call.

This is a good testing that will give me and all the veiwers of Brainburst a good look into the matches between.

Rock-
WGB
RGB
GB (2 versions)
T&N
Tog
Affinity
Goblins
Madness
Slide
Chant
And two of my Rogue decks
Sui-Smog
and Ground Control

I have three tester other than myself that expeters in their own feild, Aggro, Combo, Control (counter and board). This will be lots of fun and everyone will learn from the games' results.

[Dark Light]

After last nights testing I ended up only getting to play my WGB build because I didn't see any BG builds but my friend has one that he says is certain to do well.
T&N-
I never thought that not having some hand disruption power would hurt but playing versus T&N my WGB build went 1-3 match wise (game wise 3-7) vs. your build Darkmindtone. I thought I had the builds weaknesses covered but aparently I missed the fact that you had a Deed which ruin my Sacred Grounds (Bravo on your part of the build.)
However, the deck just didn't standup against my friends RB build of Goblins. He had Burning wishes, he only used them twice in the four matches and only once did he fetch a Extraction and hit. The one game that I got the combo off and beat him down with the Trik and Vamp combo. Your deck may need some work covering the Goblin area even after siding in the Engineered plagues and an extra deed I couldn't pull the combo off in time. Sorry but the hands I had were very good and I had the combo peices but the build was too strong. Any sugguestions on what to improve on before I playtest the Affinity match-up?
I like your build and it is the standard but what could make it better suited for the aggro match-up?

[darkmindtone]

To tell you the truth, I really am stumped on what else could be included to help the aggro matches. I have played a very few games versus Goblin decks with this version, but the were R/G, so I didn't have to deal with Extractions and such. But as of right now, the deck has Deed, Peace, Plague, and a game-ending combo should it hit. It has speed bumps in Elder, Trellis, and Witness to slow the beats, so there is not really much else I can really suggest to fit in. If you all can suggest something better than Plague versus Goblins, I'd love to hear it.

[Dark Light]

I really love the inclusion of NoSB but we on't have that kind of mana. I am waiting for something to come up for this deck. I did get a plague down and just to let you know, Your speed bump just make the car fly over them. The Elder is really just a small step. I play an extra round just to make sure that the match wasn't a fluke of speed but, the deck is just that fast. You need a deed turn two and if not turn three. I was killed twice before turn four and the one time that I slowed an assault down to a hault I was at two with a Plague out and then the SG Commando hit and next turn I was gone. I had the T&N and two of each UZ land and I got torn up before turn five. The elder doesn't really speed the deck up as much as I hoped. I was thinking that there might be a way to deal with this. I am off to test with Affinity so wish me luck.

[darkmindtone]

This weekend I'm going to attempt to get some good games in vs. Goblins and Affinity, and if I think it's warrented, I may go R/G, similar to the build that won the Standard portion of Worlds in 2004 as seen here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds04/decks1, but with some obvious modifications. This deck thrived in a field ripe with Goblins and Affinity and still did amazing (immedietly after the results were posted I played this exact version to much local success around my area). The colors blend much smoother here as well, with Fetchlands and on-color Talismans combined with Elder to really maximize the splash. Just looking at a proposed modified list, here is where I will start:

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Eternal Witness
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mephidross Vampire
1 Triskelion

4 Tooth And Nail
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Reap And Sow
4 Oblivion Stone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Moment's Peace
3 Talisman Of Impulse

4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
6 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain

S/B:
3 Mindslaver
3 Naturalize
3 Pyroclasm
2 Sundering Titan
2 Platinum Angel
1 Bosieju, Who Shelters All
1 Blinkmoth Urn

I'm sure this list will overall feel more solid, as Stone is easier to play out than Deed, but doesn't have the bonus of killing Artifact Lands. I'll give it a test run this weekend though.

[mafiamember]

tooth and nail is bad enough in standard why would you try to play it in extended. what your doing is like trying to play rock in type 1. It wont work

[darkmindtone]

tooth and nail is bad enough in standard why would you try to play it in extended. what your doing is like trying to play rock in type 1. It wont work


Tooth and Nail is amazing in future Extended, and to tell you the truth, it has seemingly become the best deck in Standard at the moment as well, taking many more recent events than MUC or Red based decks. It already is one of the top four decks on Magic Online Extended (what paper magic will be October 20th), along with Affinity, Goblins, and G/B/R Rock. Just wait until later this year to see for yourself how much of a powerhouse this deck is when none of the other decks are packing mainboard hate cards such as Plow Under and Cranial Extraction.

Also, be on the lookout for this and the previously mentioned decks at the Magic Invitational next week at E3 in the Extended format, which will be played by the pros with Online Extended. I have a feeling that Tooth will do quite decent there if any of the pros decide to play it.

[Boogy_Boy]

I think these issues need to be addresed b4 a T&N deck is to be built in ext.

1) How useful are the combos (the ones in T2) in ext?
Personally I feel they are not very useful. With all the painland and 5 coloured land around, kiki-titan is useless. Then, kiki-collosus isn't that great as well. So much things can happen. Edict, bounce, ensnaring bridge, fire/ice, not to mention the notorius chant-on-stick.
So I reckon, new combos need to be found. For instance, Reya Dawnbringer + Akroma Angel looks good. It is resilient to spot removals. It's also more useful as it can ezily recur Tribe-Elders.
Other control-ish combos needs to be found, and sone of the T2 ones needs to be reconsidered.

2) Is Tooth and Nail really the most effective way to use up all the mana?
Why hasn't anyone considered Decree of Justice? Burning wish with X casting cost sorcery in SB such as stream of life, fireball, etc etc etc.
There are so much more possibility in Extended, even with the rotation.

Those are just two main points that came across my head.
IMO while T&N is quite feasible in ext, a lot of thoughts need to be put into it, rather than doing some alteration on the carbon copy from T2. Cos there's just so much more possibility.

[darkmindtone]

I think these issues need to be addresed b4 a T&N deck is to be built in ext.

1) How useful are the combos (the ones in T2) in ext?
Personally I feel they are not very useful. With all the painland and 5 coloured land around, kiki-titan is useless. Then, kiki-collosus isn't that great as well. So much things can happen. Edict, bounce, ensnaring bridge, fire/ice, not to mention the notorius chant-on-stick.
So I reckon, new combos need to be found. For instance, Reya Dawnbringer + Akroma Angel looks good. It is resilient to spot removals. It's also more useful as it can ezily recur Tribe-Elders.
Other control-ish combos needs to be found, and sone of the T2 ones needs to be reconsidered.

2) Is Tooth and Nail really the most effective way to use up all the mana?
Why hasn't anyone considered Decree of Justice? Burning wish with X casting cost sorcery in SB such as stream of life, fireball, etc etc etc.
There are so much more possibility in Extended, even with the rotation.

Those are just two main points that came across my head.
IMO while T&N is quite feasible in ext, a lot of thoughts need to be put into it, rather than doing some alteration on the carbon copy from T2. Cos there's just so much more possibility.

Tooth and Nail's current combo's are still in place simply because they are superior to anything possible even with the slightly larger cardpool. They havn't changed from Onslaught to Mirrordin to Kamigawa, and the reason is that Mirrodin gave us the best fatties EVER. Darksteel Colossus and Sundering Titan are I-N-S-A-N-E. I just did more testing versus Rock this weekend, as I was unable so far to get one of my friends to get Affinity yet, and Titan is a wrecking ball. In any non-aggro deck, such as Rock, Wake, Tog, Slide, and even Storm Combo, he is game over should he resolve. Pain lands do exist, but should decks run solely off of them, they will be helping out aggressive decks such as Affinity and Goblins by taking around a fourth of their life away for free.

Darksteel Colossus is just amazing utility, and I found him to rock hardcore with all the Terminates and Artifact Mutation's my friend had post-board in our matchup. He is un-deedable, and just kills people fast with Kiki. The infinate damage combo via Trike/Vamp is very much needed as a game-over solution to Goblins and Affinity. Those aggressive decks can simply race a Toothed up Colossus and Titan, so you need to play the lockdown, and kill their guys permanently. The A Team (Abunas/Angel) is amazing, but is easier to deal with by Goblins with all the burn they have.

All the other cards you suggested are simply sub-par to the power of a resolved Tooth, which will win the game for you around 90% of the time. Decree of Justice says I made 6 1/1 tokens for the same number of mana. Now just have an Engineered Plague or a Sharpshooter out and go to town. Or just force me to block your incoming assault for a turn or two and then lose. Fireball does, say 8-10 damage to their face or board, and then you have.....nothing. Stream of Life is just a bad card, and never should be suggested in any way for inclusion in a competative magic deck.

I don't make up results either. I talk to people who play Magic Online, and Tooth is one of the four "Big" decks, along with Affinity, Goblins, and G/B/R Rock. Other decks such as R/G, Scepter, and Storm combo see play as well, but not on the level of those first four. That is good for me to see that Tooth can do well with the basic premise taken from the Standard deck, with only slight changes such as color splashes added from the larger cardpool.

[Dark Light]

I agree with all you said about the titan and collossus and that is why I know the T&N match-up will be difficult for Rock. My WGB has gotten more evolved so to speak and I'll try it out against the deck again but the Goblins games and Affinity matches were by far the most painful for me to play. I risked my neck many times and lost my head by either going for the Tooth or hodin them back. I really have come to know that the Resolved tooth mean GG for the most part and in my deck I (am sad to say) put cards in that are of such great utility (Vindicate, Therapies) mostly out of fear of losing to tooth. I will say that I may play an Enduring Ideal deck to see which one would prevail using the same consept. But facts are facts. T&N > Rock WGB (2-3 current testing) Goblins > T&N (4-1) and Affinity > T&N (3-2). I know these are hard for even me to swallow but the Gobs and Affinity have to be controlled some how and If you can't Resolve your T&N you lose to both Affinity and Gobs while if I resolve the Worship I win vs. Gobs. (there is no dening it and the chance that they would have something to deal with it is not so common as you think) Affinity is a threat to me still but I have found that the out come of these two matches for T&N are by the luck of the draw and if you can cast the Tooth. Have you considered the Heartbeat of Spring? It won't do that much good for gobs or affinity and you could cast a tooth as early as turn four. Just some thoughts and ideas.

[Boogy_Boy]

Tooth and Nail's current combo's are still in place simply because they are superior to anything possible even with the slightly larger cardpool. They havn't changed from Onslaught to Mirrordin to Kamigawa, and the reason is that Mirrodin gave us the best fatties EVER. Darksteel Colossus and Sundering Titan are I-N-S-A-N-E. I just did more testing versus Rock this weekend, as I was unable so far to get one of my friends to get Affinity yet, and Titan is a wrecking ball. In any non-aggro deck, such as Rock, Wake, Tog, Slide, and even Storm Combo, he is game over should he resolve. Pain lands do exist, but should decks run solely off of them, they will be helping out aggressive decks such as Affinity and Goblins by taking around a fourth of their life away for free.

Darksteel Colossus is just amazing utility, and I found him to rock hardcore with all the Terminates and Artifact Mutation's my friend had post-board in our matchup. He is un-deedable, and just kills people fast with Kiki. The infinate damage combo via Trike/Vamp is very much needed as a game-over solution to Goblins and Affinity. Those aggressive decks can simply race a Toothed up Colossus and Titan, so you need to play the lockdown, and kill their guys permanently. The A Team (Abunas/Angel) is amazing, but is easier to deal with by Goblins with all the burn they have.

All the other cards you suggested are simply sub-par to the power of a resolved Tooth, which will win the game for you around 90% of the time. Decree of Justice says I made 6 1/1 tokens for the same number of mana. Now just have an Engineered Plague or a Sharpshooter out and go to town. Or just force me to block your incoming assault for a turn or two and then lose. Fireball does, say 8-10 damage to their face or board, and then you have.....nothing. Stream of Life is just a bad card, and never should be suggested in any way for inclusion in a competative magic deck.

I don't make up results either. I talk to people who play Magic Online, and Tooth is one of the four "Big" decks, along with Affinity, Goblins, and G/B/R Rock. Other decks such as R/G, Scepter, and Storm combo see play as well, but not on the level of those first four. That is good for me to see that Tooth can do well with the basic premise taken from the Standard deck, with only slight changes such as color splashes added from the larger cardpool.

Hi,
hmm, it's either me who's taking it the wrong way or you. But I think you are getting a bit aggresive here. I-come-in-peace ;)

But anyway.... It's a bit hard to think you can live through the first 3 turns of hand disruption and T&N on turn 4. Also, I think testing this vs Dark Light's rock has a slight problem. The fact that Dark Light run 3 colour means that each entering/leaving of a titan takes out 3 lands, not 2. (tho personally I don't really think it matters, and agree that a kiki-titan combo on rock is pretty much game)
Yet, if neccessary, Rock can board in creeping mold/duress/extraction...

one little question is, can I deed in response to Mirror-Breaker's copying ability? I think no, but I'm not sure.


What's more, I hope you have tested your deck against the BU Tog (which I didn't see you mention) In this match up, you'd have to setup the Trons + a boseiju to reliably get through a tooth.
Not to mention a Sylvan Scry/Reap and Sow countered by quash can be quite damaging.


What about deck with splash for red? Such as Rock. Sowing salt, the way I see it, is a huge problem.


I hope you are not taking it in the wrong way, as I'm very interested in T&N.


The stream of life was only a minor example that came across my mind when I mentioned it. What I was really trying to say is, since you splashed for red anyway, you could use burning wish, and perhaps put a T&N SB. A fireball there if the opponent is bounce heavy.

Also, perhaps living wish can be used?

What do you think?

[Dark Light]

Quashing a Scrying or Sow? Try T&N! I know that my deck that I tested vs. him is three colors but I have right now almost as many if not more non-basic lands that work fine with the addition of smoothing out the deck.

The main thing I worry about is that Goblins have been able to run the deck over even with the Momments going off twice and a deed. The deck seems to be only out done by Affinity. Until something comes that slows the format down we can't trust the format to playing a control deck, except maybe tog.
Sorry but that's what the stats are telling me.

[darkmindtone]

Hi,
hmm, it's either me who's taking it the wrong way or you. But I think you are getting a bit aggresive here. I-come-in-peace ;)

But anyway.... It's a bit hard to think you can live through the first 3 turns of hand disruption and T&N on turn 4. Also, I think testing this vs Dark Light's rock has a slight problem. The fact that Dark Light run 3 colour means that each entering/leaving of a titan takes out 3 lands, not 2. (tho personally I don't really think it matters, and agree that a kiki-titan combo on rock is pretty much game)
Yet, if neccessary, Rock can board in creeping mold/duress/extraction...

one little question is, can I deed in response to Mirror-Breaker's copying ability? I think no, but I'm not sure.


What's more, I hope you have tested your deck against the BU Tog (which I didn't see you mention) In this match up, you'd have to setup the Trons + a boseiju to reliably get through a tooth.
Not to mention a Sylvan Scry/Reap and Sow countered by quash can be quite damaging.


What about deck with splash for red? Such as Rock. Sowing salt, the way I see it, is a huge problem.


I hope you are not taking it in the wrong way, as I'm very interested in T&N.


The stream of life was only a minor example that came across my mind when I mentioned it. What I was really trying to say is, since you splashed for red anyway, you could use burning wish, and perhaps put a T&N SB. A fireball there if the opponent is bounce heavy.

Also, perhaps living wish can be used?

What do you think?

I apologize if that came off too aggressive, as I think the Stream of Life thing just got me stirred up.

The Rock deck I'm testing against has 4 Therepy, 3 Duress, 3 Witness mainboard, as well as Terminate, Deed, Baloth, Kavu, Troll, Sword Of Fire And Ice, Birds, and Elder. It brings in Artifact Mutation and 4 Extractions versus me, and I still have a favorable percentage versus it. And the player I'm testing versus just made top eight with Rock at the last PTQ of the season, so he has a pretty good idea how to play the deck.

As for Deeding in response to Kiki's ability, yes you can do that, and if you do it for enough to kill the target of kiki's ability, then nothing will happen, but if you can't kill what kiki is targeting (not likely since usually titan or colossus will be there), then just killing the Kiki does nothing to the ability on the stack.

As for Tog, there is only one card in that entire deck that scares me, and it's usually only a one or two of: Upheavel. That card can totally break our deck if it resolves, but everything else in that deck is simple counters, draw, and creature removal, and I think as we've seen from Standard, Counters by themselves simply cannot handle Bosieju, and it takes other methods such as Time Stop and Temporal Adept to handle it. Mindslaver destroys that deck as well, and cards like Moment's Peace and Oblivion Stone are not useless either.

Cards like Fireball are situational, and simply don't abuse the mana like a resolved Tooth and nail can do. With a 9cc Tooth, you can get a 11c guy and a triple red 5cc guy into play at the same time. You saved 7 mana, some of it off-colored, for a double Tutor, that will deal more damage in one turn than a Fireball paid for with the same mana. In two turns it will have dealt 33 damage, which is significantly larger than a single Fireball. Now, you can argue that the Fireball is targeted removal, but still, the difference in damage is just too much to ignore.

Living Wish has been discussed when I brought this topic up on other forums, and it may be the way to go, but I simply never liked the lessening in consistancy I experienced when I cut the Tron down to nine maindeck simply to get a Tutor that's 2cc cheaper than Reap, but doesn't put it into play or give a shuffle effect to abuse Top. Although, Wish does offer advantages such as tutoring up creatures late game, getting essential lands such as Bosieju and Blinkmoth Well early game, and being protection against Sowing Salt, and in a sense, Cranial Extraction. Still, I am one who favors consistancy, and the Wish cuts down heavily on Sideboard options.

But again, I apologize if I seemed overly harsh in my previous statements.

[Boogy_Boy]

hmm,

So when do you usually go off against Rock (WBU), with all the disruptions?


Edit - Note I mentioned the Tog match up cos you do not have boseiju main, and you also do not have living wish. So that means you don't really have much of a chance pre-boarding right?

[klingon_master]

How will this deck do without any removal cards Like oblivion stone and Pernicious Deed. In extended version can it be played with the o stone and work well without the deed in it? Does it require these cards or something like midslaver to be good. Can it win with Just the big beats and combos in it? How is tooth gonna deal with tier one decks Like affinity and gobblins? Can this be considered tier one? Seems like it has to run black in it in extended to play well. What about Platinum Angel/Leonin Abunas combo in sb what decks is it used against and is Plague mandatory on sb along with cranial or can it do without. Why is not cranial a mb type of card? like 2x in mb and 1x on side

[Jynx]

Just thought I'd get this back into the discussion, since the last post was pre-Saviors and 9th listings. Does anyone see any cards that may give Tooth an edge? I've been thinking about the following:

- 2-3 Chrome Mox MB. I've played it in Standard and it just makes great sense, it feels right. Turn 1 Scryings/Elders are funky.
- Chalice of the Void: in theory, at least, it can break up Ravager and Goblin buildups with a 0 or 2 mana cc. Haven't tried it yet though...
- Pithing Needle MB. There's just too many cards it can harass if you know the metagame well, and it'll stall Ravager. Just too bad it's not good vs Goblins...
- Verdant Force? It's not a bad critter, only... well... I just don't see it being better than the existing kills..

Jynx

[Dark Light]

There is really nothing for T&N. The deck is just too slow for the format even with Deeds and all. The Peace will only grant them a two turns to build up their forces for a final swing. Dark Mind Tone had the best build I Have seen in a while but unless you can pull off the Agnel+Abunas team you'll just die by turn 5. I'd like to see how often the deck could pull out the T&N for the win. What is the fastest you could do it? The only real things I can sugguest for the deck is using Elves and BoP to accel into a turn 2 Trinisphere. In my testing with Opposition it has done better than the orb because it will slow Aggro to a crawl and then you have a chance, even vs Affinity. The Downsides- Its a Artifact, there will be artifact hate, and it will most likely be blown away by a Deed and sometimes yours with their forces coming in.
Even after testing a while back, the deck did fine vs. Rock going about 50/50 if I remeber correctly and Slide and Slide was about 60/40 but when the deck faced Aggro, even Madness it face huge problems with building its mana base and then vs. any counter deck the deck wasn't afraid to hold back two or three counterspells that would counter T&N.

I'm not trying to be rude or have a bad attitude toward the deck but you seem to be looking at this like you just came out of the Standard forum and try and play in Extended, right? It's just that the deck hasn't shown anything in testing really to make me say it is playable and can go at least 8-2 in a tournament.

[darkmindtone]

Wow, someone bumped the topic on this site. Nice. I have indeed been working on this on the side of playing Block for the past couple of months, and gone back to the B/G build simply based on the strength Deed has versus Affinity.

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Eternal Witness
3 Solemn Simulacrum (may become the B/G artifact filter in Ravinica)
1 Sundering Titan
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker
1 Triskelion
1 Mephidross Vampire
1 Duplicant
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Tooth And Nail
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Reap And Sow
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicous Deed

4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Llanowar Wastes
6 Forest
1 Swamp

S/B:
4 Oxidize
4 Cranial Extraction
2 Viridian Shaman
2 Sundering Titan
2 Triskelion
1 Boseiju Who Shelters All

This build has been consistantly good in initial testing. Affinity is not a hard matchup with this version, and Goblins, while more difficult, can still be taken down. Rock is in the favor of Tooth almost simply due to the power of Titan and Colossus in that matchup. R/G is in Tooths favor, unless they pack crazy disruption in the board, and even then it's winnable due to slower clock than Affinity/Goblins and lack of permission. That's the good news.

The bad news is that Tooth, even with Extraction sideboarded, has trouble against the awesome U/G Storm decks (no Desire) and Balancing 'Tings. Both those decks are getting increasingly popular on MODO, which may mean a decent amount of support come the fall PTQ season.

The fifty-fifty matchups for this deck come in the counter-based control decks such as Scepter and Tog. Generally Tooth has the advantage should neither of those decks be prepared, but I have seen U/B/R Tog decks board in Dwarven Blastminers, which is usually GG w/counter protection versus Tooth.

Anyways, I can understand Dark Light's skepticism, but this deck really is going to be a force in the upcoming season. It will feed off the fact that Affinity, Goblins, and Rock take up most peoples board space, and come out swinging this upcoming season.

Jynx, Chrome Mox would indeed seem nice, but I neglect to put it in this version of the deck (I do indeed run it in Standard as well). The reason being the lack of synergy with Deed, and the fact that Artifact hate will be rampant. We don't want stray maindeck Viridian Shamens to have unnecessary targets now, do we? Oxidize will be everywhere, as well as many other forms of artihate, making the Mox a risk in the upcoming format that I am unwilling to submit to.

Chalice of the Void was tried in Standard for the same reason you brought up, and it was always lacking. It just never works out like you imagine it in real games.

Pithing Needle as the support card of Choice, or Deed? Deed has far more power, and there is really only room in this deck for one. If I did have room for another, that would be Moment's Peace.

Verdant Force is nowhere near the power level of some of the other critters featured in this deck. A fun creature, and was nice with Natural Order back in the day, but he comes up lacking in current formats.

[KES]

I've beening playing tooth and nail for a long time and i've been thinking about in in extended here is a list i came up with

3 eternal witness
4 sakura-tribe elder
3 vine trellis
1 viridian shaman
1 sundering titan
1 Darksteel colossus
1 kiki
1 duplicant

4 tooth and nail
4 sensei's divining top
4 living wish
4 reap and sow
3 oblivion stone
3 Mindslaver
3 chrome mox

3 tower
3 mine
3 pp
1 tranquil thicket
1 boseiju
9 forest

[AJFirst]

most builds of all decks besides goblins will most likely have around 8 basic lands, so is sundering titan really a good choice here?

also, trisk/meph is a necesity against all the creature based decks

we also need some more early defense like fogs or something cause those decks can really bring the pain early

[darkmindtone]

most builds of all decks besides goblins will most likely have around 8 basic lands, so is sundering titan really a good choice here?

also, trisk/meph is a necesity against all the creature based decks

we also need some more early defense like fogs or something cause those decks can really bring the pain early


Yes, Titan is a must versus any deck utilizing basics. You may see only 8 or so basics in upcoming lists, but take into account fetchlands, and that changes things. Also look into the upcoming dual lands to make Titan far better than he is when lots of pain lands are being played.

[Kurtboy]

I think it should be Green/White, for wraths and other things like ivory mask, Cop's etc.

Also, no urzatron.

[darkmindtone]

I think it should be Green/White, for wraths and other things like ivory mask, Cop's etc.

Also, no urzatron.

G/W is what I've been running for the past few weeks with excellent results. But of course, I run Urzatron, and I don't run it for the reasons you listed. Sacred Ground is amazing vs. Tings, Global Ruin, Dwarven Blastminer, Destructive Flow, etc. Kataki runs over Affinity, and Dueling Grounds slows Goblins to a crawl. It's proven to be the best splash color by far. But not running the Urzatron is asking to get run over, as this IS a combo deck.