Evenmoor Red Article Discussion

[GoblinChampion]

Use this thread to discuss the deck from my article. I prefer to have an actual forum thread for it...

the link to the article:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=8139&Page=1

hope to hear a lot from you guys

[ScaryHairyGuy]

"I'll be the first to admit that aggro decks are about a million times easier to pilot and require far less skill."

Just leaving aside the rather lazy sentence construction (comparative adjective without object for comparison?!), this is just about the most globally popular fallacy which exists in Magic. In truth, aggro decks exist more on the margins of success than either control or combo: in stark terms, a control player may be able to make a sloppy play or two and get away with it if his big splashy (e.g. mass removal) spells work for him, likewise the combo player may sometimes make a right mess of things, but then the raw power of his combo just wins him the game. The aggro player on the other hand, has to squeeze out every last bit of value from their cards, be alert to making maximum impact with their individually less powerful cards, as that 1 extra point of damage you missed may be the difference between top 8 and disappointment.
As for the rest, yeah fine, this is your formula, your writing (lazy adjective use notwithstanding) is still of a decent enough standard. I trust the promised follow-up (linked into GP Denver presumably?) will flesh the actual solid- rather than just opinion-based- elements out, and i would definitely regard that tournament as an opportunity in more ways than one for you.

[GoblinChampion]

what exactly will you be most interested in seeing from the elemental description? the follow-up will be a walkthrough (play by play in some areas) of a few matches.

i'm likely to pair the good with the bad and just bring people through some sample games. it's just going to be me taking notes from my games with the test group. they'll be writing notes from their perspective as well, so we will have hand situation, mental processes, etc. all rolled in there.

it will also practically reveal my sideboard because I will be mentioning the cards that go in and out.

another follow-up will be a report from next weekend's PTQ in orlando, as well as any last minute changes going into the GP. the closing article will be the GP report along with my analysis for the future of the deck if it has one. (I likely will not be attending anymore block events, but if the deck is good, will be trying to help people out)

on the grammar- good catch, I thought I had implied the comparison, so that's a slip on my part.

[Rakavolver]

First, I hate the term "Evenmoor" so much, I won't even read your article. I like you, but I have my limits. "Evenmoor" crosses those.

Second, ScaryHairyGuy is your mortal enemy. If you nuke his town (and thereby him ... unless he is on vacation), I will be sad. I wouldn't be surprised though.

Third, I'm glad Mr. and Mrs. ScaryHairyGuy DID get busy one night to make ScaryHairyGuy, because I've always loved his responses. Love ya both. Normally I hate flaming, but in both of your cases I'll make an exception.

Keep entertaining us, pls kthnx.

[Icey101]

I have been testing this deck for last couple weeks with about 8 cards total different. We had a long discussion last night on the the Countryside crusher. I feel it could be a good card, but so far I have never had one go past 4/4. A teammate has the oppisite feeling, but I think this is based off the fact he gets him to 5/5 + alot more than me.

We have been trying to use another two slot creature in his spot, I am still not sure about this though. I like the ability to turn one creature drop, turn two creature drop and tarfire a blocker or lashout a blocker. So I am not sure another two drop creature is needed. But I also like the idea of more hasty creatures in the deck.

So far I am very happy with decks match up against Faeries and any of the 5 color decks out there, pre sideboard Kithkin is really up in the air.

[GoblinChampion]

I'm so lost right now... but maybe that's right where I'm supposed to be

I think you should give the article a read though...
unless you already did

like I said... confused

[GoblinChampion]

if you're testing mudbrawler cohort Icey, you are going to run into problems.

he's great if you can maintain the pressure, but ashenmoor gouger is just so much more durable.
stigma lasher is about all you need for 2 drops

another guy if you feel like you need to add some haste is inner-flame acolyte.
i don't like him because of the 2 toughness, but he has his upsides.

[Icey101]

I only tested couple games with the mudbrawler, and he was ok. That is the same thing I can say about the Ashenmoor gouger to though, in theory he is a great guy. I know he avoids almost all removal from the format, but what normally seemed to happen was he was chumped the entire game. Now mind you so far the only testing I have did was vs Faeries, Kithkin, Toast and few other random decks.

I am in the air right now between Red or Faeries for Denver. I think red would be a very good choice, except I am very scared there will be a large portion of kithkin decks.

I feel the MVP creature of the deck is the Boggart Ram-Gang followed really close by Stigma Lasher.

[covertgoof]

i feel that stigma lasher is a very good choice to use in any block deck because if swung with early for damage diectly to players it can shut down kithkin liegain, and the lifegain permitted to green decks by primal command. i feel that this deck could be a strong competitor in the upcoming Denver matches.

[Marke]

The article is pretty good and i like the extensive analysis of the cards you are using and in what numbers. A good curve is so extremely important in aggro decks and far too often neglected. I have been doing some tests with the deck and i came up with similar stuff, your analysis and method for sideboard cards i dislike though. THe number of matchups a card is usefull in is really not a great method to analyse the cards i think, its far more important to note how good the cards are in the certain matchups.
For example you have firespout as a card that is good in 4 matchups, however it is HARDLY good in any of the matchups. It is 'decent' against merfolk but far too often will it mean you wipe your own tattermunge and their reejerey or whatever. Against kithkin it is actually horrible, the problem with kith is their token cards. Without access to green, firespout does nothing against spectral procession and cloudgoat ranger itself will survive cuz the tokens tap to make him fly.
Furthermore does the numbers of usefull matchups depend too much on how you chose your gauntlet, it would be much better to give a rough estimate (in percentages or whatever) of the metagame a card is good against.

Now also do you mention some weird choses for your sideboard without explaining it, most of all demigod of revenge. The card is only good as a 4-of (to get a double draw) but is 5 mana. So playing it means you go from 23 lands deck with max curve 3 to a deck with 4 5cc creatures. This basically means you also need a spare mountain in your SB. Besides he does not really stroke with your gameplan, which is fast beats with burn forcing your opponent to sacrifice card advantage for tempo. If you play demigod your opponent can suddenly counter draw on his cryptic instead the less good tap draw, or he can fully cast his shriekmaw instead of evoking.

[Char you]

stigma lasher is good...wait i mean great no doubt, but i think he is only sideboard worthy. I think the effectivness of the MRA deck is that most of the creatures have haste. you have Boggart Ram-Gang, Mudbrawler Cohort, and Demigod. not to mention undercosted powerful creatures like 3 mana 4/4's and 1 mana 2/1's. and if you are playing 12-15 burn spells, i wouldnt be to worried about the little life gain they aquire off a kitchen finks or knight of meadowgrain. also even aginst turn 1 BFT i manage to pull out wins due to the quickness and overpowering of MRA. granted, spectral procession is great against us with thier weave combo but that is what embergale or hurly-burly is for. My goal for when they play BTF is to put them into a position where they have to sacrifice him or lose tempo or card advantage. and when that happens, then you can resume your game because they are not going to lose thier board for 1/1 with pro red. then also you have the moonglove extract so, i agree it is a tough match up but in no way unwinnable. another thing is that i have been testing unwilling recuit and i never want to draw it. i have to sacrifice outlet to abuse the card if it resolves and i just dont find it to be worth it. but anyway, just my opinion.

[Marke]

Now it is offcourse harsh to critique your sideboard/deck without providing what i consider my solution: play black.
Black offers many a few great mainboard/sideboard cards and the effect on your manabase is noticable but so small that i consider it worth it.
My current list:
12 mountain
4 graven cairns
4 auntie's hovel
2 reflecting pool
1 swamp

4 figure of d
4 tattermunge m
2 stigma lasher
2 vexing shusher
3 ashenmore gouger

4 tarfire
4 lash out
4 flame javelin
3 puncture blast
2 syphon life
1 profane command

THe land base includes 9 black sources, which means you will hit it it practically every game when it is neccesary. There is only 1 swamp and 4 graven cairns which means that is not so likely your unable to get RRR with your first 3 lands. The chance for not being able to play your 1 drop is minimal as you still got 16 lands able to do that. Reflecting pool helps for hitting double black which gives access to profane command and syphon life, which are my main board differences with your list. Syphon life is great as finisher, how often dont you stall with your opponent at 8 while you got 20 and get useless lands subsequently? Syphon life helps big time here, turning those lands into 2 damage. (the gained life helps immensely in races), Profane command is just superior to unwilling recruit in my opinion which is a subpar card in my opinion, the reason i play just 1 is mana.
Also i chose to play some vexing shushers instead of stigma lashers main, shusher is goblin heling with auntie's hovel and usually does the same thing as lasher, which is being a bear that gets killed quick, this way i have better fae game 1 and more space in my sideboard.
Speaking of sideboard here is mine:
1 vexing shusher
2 shriekmaw
2 murderous redcap
4 fulminator mage
2 soul snuffers
3 trip noose
1 festercreep

Extra shusher for fae/merfolk/commandments, shriekmaw is great against kithkin and pretty good against merfolk or random green decks. Redcap is also great in the same role as shriekmaw but is great against BW and BG. Fulminator mage is for 5c and also helps against kithkin. Soul snuffers/festercreep are the answers to kithkin and have a use against fae too. Finally trip noose is awesome against doran/BG and also helps against kithk.
As a result i think this Rb version is better in many matchups then your list,
kithk is obviously better, doran also seems better, fae is better, 5c is slightly worse, elementals same, merfolk better, WB and rogue the same (which should not be in your gauntlet as they are hardly played) and the mirror i think is slightly better.

Anyway this is just my opinion feel free to disagree but the fact that you consider cards like moonglove extract for SB almost has to mean black is worth it, isnt it?

[ewallhagen]

Marke:

First and foremost, the Auntie's Hovels are probably not a great play. Red decks are supposed to be fast, and a CIPT land is anything but fast. With only 10 reveals in the deck for it, you aren't guaranteed to have one when you need it.

I don't entirely think I agree with the MD Shusher. This deck is primed for fast damage, ideally before your opponent has the mana to be ready for serious countering. If your opponent can get anything to stick on the board, you're not likely to be beating with your shusher, for fear of losing it. He's a SB option, not a main deck card. (Also, as far as 2 drops go, the wither on stigma lasher makes him much more preferable.)

Also, Profane Command, and Syphon Life trip over eachother. When you hit the profane, you want as much mana available as possible. With the Syphon Life, you'll likely be pitching lands. Plus, I feel both (especially the Command) are a bit heavy for the curve. Syphon Life doing 2 damage for 3, is not worth it in this type deck. You want to burn for max. Your own life total should not be an issue, so the 2 life gain on it is inconsequential.

Mostly my feel is that your changes have dropped the speed of the deck, to set up for a slightly longer game. Ordinarily this is fine, but this deck has no weapons for long games. By turn 4/5 a lot of other decks will be gaining massive card advantage through mulldrifter, and other draw spells. You need to win, or at least be close to winning before they can get to that point.

[Marke]

First of all with 2 maindeck shusher you have 14 maindeck goblins which is enough for auntie's hovel. If you dont have a goblin, your likely to have no turn 1 play at all in which the hovel didnt matter. (4 tarfire + 4 tattermunge + 4 boggart + 2 vexing)
Secondly your hardly ever really afraid of swinging with shusher, if you are then you shouldnt play the card really. THe cards where you are most afraid of swinging with him are also the decks that play annoying tricks and there he is usefull, thus better then stigma. I feel you are overrating stigma lasher really, its life gain ability does not often make a difference (the people that play finks can often deal with a turn 2 bear) and wither is only nice against bigger blockers, against mulldrifters, muta's and what not its totally useless. Also dont you agree that vexing shusher warrants a spot on the mere fact that merfolk+5c+fae are more thn 50% of the metagame? (offcourse i play him also for the auntie's hovel reason, which is also why redcap is in the board)

Syphon life's 2 for 3 offcourse isnt that fantastic if you say it like that, but having all topdeck lands turn into shock later on does make him great. Profane command being topheavy is not that true i think most times you play him for x=2 or x=1 which is still fantastic. Killing a blossom token and returning figure or giving gouger fear and doing 1 to the dome. Those plays are great and the card is just more versatile then Unwilling recruit which i really think is a bad card in your list. Threaten effects without sac outlets are just not that good especially when almost all decks rely on many cheap creatures or cant be stolen (mannequined creatures). In this way profane command is just better then recruit, the fact that it doesnt work with syphon life's game plan is not that bad. Usually lategame with this deck i have 4 lands and stack up those i draw, that case i can play any topdeck, if i draw figure i play my 5th land and 6th next turn so i can attack with a 8/8 and if i draw profane i play my 5th and go fr x=3 usually taking back gouger/ramgang.

My main may be slightly and only slightly slower then your list my board does fit alot more with the speed of the deck. Almost all your proposed sb cards (moonglove, demigod, incendiary c, ember gale, boartusk etc) are slow cards. Offcourse i dont know your final sideboard but from the read i assume some of these did make it in, which means that taking sideboards into consideration your list is probably slower

[GoblinChampion]

marke- although I absolutely abhor playing games online, I would like to see your deck played a few times against me. since you designed it, I'd like to see how you play it so I get a better idea of how you feel it should be run. if you have time, hit me up for some testing on MWS. PM me so we can set up a time for both of us. I'll be out all tonight, so I'll get back to you when I get home.

the rest of you guys- I want to hit your comments back, and I will get around to them when I have more time. thanks a bunch for the feedback though, it's all been interesting to read and I can't wait to respond and bounce some ideas back and forth.

if anyone else has opinions on the black splash that marke suggested, I'd like to hear about it.

[Icey101]

Splashing black as above slows the deck down. Profane command and siphon life are not instants. Profane does 1dmg for 3 mana, sure the other affects could be good late game but chances are you won't have more than 5 mana. No creatures in this deck have come into play effects, making getting a creature from the graveyard alright.

Siphon life is not an instant, it can't clear the way for your creatures to beat down someone. I really feel the spell has to be a creature or be able to burn creature or player to be worthwhile in the deck. Anything else it starts to dilute it alot.

As for the mana base, I know my luck and I could not play it. Which would you rather have opening hand with a Graven Carins and a reflecting pool, with one 1 drop, 2 drop, and three drop creature and two burn spells. Or two mountains and the exact same cards. Increasing the utility of the deck with the black would actually hurt its true goal, deal 20 dmg as fast as possible to someones face.

Stigma lasher needs to be main deck with primal command and kitchen finks out there, sure not all the decks run them. But a 2/2 with wither is still decent. I feel vexing shusher is not as good main deck as the lasher is.

[Aydn]

I like this deck a lot, been playing something similar running 25 land and only 12 burn spells.

The main difference, 25 land and 4 Mutavault wiith Demigod. I just believe Demigod is too good not to play, it just wins games and using the extra land to boost the destiny or make the Demigod get around counters with a Shusher is gravy.

Sadly, I just think there isn't a chance this deck has against Kithkin which is just a shame. The main offenders are of course BFT, Windbrisk Heights and Spectral Prosession. Not to mention Knight, Cloudgoat Ranger etc. I just don't know how to get around BFT, you can always play Fulminator Mage for the lands, but I don't think thats a strong play for an aggro deck.

Anyway, good luck in your testing!

[Xanzo]

I've been messing around with this archetype a bit. One thing I have been considering is soul snuffers. they drop a -1/-1 counter across the board, wrecking kithkin. the only problem is they slow the deck down significantly.
I have been considering running nameless inversion main deck also. The only problem is that the more black spells I add, the spottier the mana gets.

I feel that if you are playing mono red, you have to make concessions to the Kithkin matchups. If you go to a lbc ptq and don't see kithkin, it's because your eyes are closed. I'm a little torn between going red/black or just biting the bullet and hoping for the good match ups with mono red.

[GoblinChampion]

i think I finally found the answer, but the testing will tell

I must say, it's somewhat janky but it gets the job done quite well in these last 8 games.
i'm 3-5, which is much better than the 0-inf record I've had before.

[Falkor]

I basically see Red as a choice between Demigod of Revenge and Rage Forger, and for now, I am going with Rage Forger.

Plus, I think you really need to test Intimidator Initiate, it is quite good in the format at the moment, especially in mono-red.

When I look at your curve, I do get a little nervous, since 17 3cc spells and 4 Demigod of Revenge is a really high curve for an aggressive deck. I like the choice of Ashenmoor Gouger over Boggart Ram-Gang, but I would probably sub out the Ram-Gang for SOME 2cc creature. Now, you just have to pick the creature.

Vexing Shusher
Sunflare Shaman
Soulbright Flamekin
Mudbrawler Cohort
Stigma Lasher
Spiteflame Witch (with a black splash, and maybe some Manaforge Cinders)

All of the following cards are options. Or, you could run Hurly-Burly in the main deck, which is a gazillion times better than Ember Gale.

In my Elemental Shamans aggro deck based on the 6th place PTQ deck from Flores' article Playing Ketchup on mtg.com, I have gone from:

4x Sunflare Shaman, 4x Spiteflame Witch, 3x Incandescent Soulstoke
to
3x Sunflare Shaman, 4x Stigma Lasher, 1x Incandescent Soulstoke, 1x Flame Jab, 2x Puncture Blast
probably to
4x Stigma Lasher, 4x Vexing Shusher, 1x Flame Jab, 2x Puncture Blast

I don't know about the rest of you, but just play Vexing Shusher as a bear until you can make use of its ability. In my deck, with Rage Forger pumping it up to a 3/3 on turn 3, it is a lot better than a 3/2. If it dies, who cares?

[jared_dow_30]

I absolutely LOVE this deck!! Great article GoblinChampion!! I'm gonna have to build this deck and test it out :D

One Question though.. Whats your current SB and SB strategy? (What comes in and out for each MU?)

Thnx :D

P.S. LOVE the name of your deck (Project 102.3b)
For Reference - Rule 102.3b: If a player's life total is 0 or less, he or she loses the game the next time a player would receive priority. :)