LBC - MonoRed - Tested

[Komanc]

Hi There,

I'm currently quite heavily preparing for GP Birmingham and while I do test many decks, there's a concept deck that I came up with (after working on some initial design from friend of mine) of MonoRed deck. Actually initial testing seems way too good for a concept deck! As I won't have enough time to test it properly, it'd be great if you guys could share with me your ideas about it...

Creatures
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Intimidator Initiate
4 Brigheart Banneret
4 Mudbrawler Cohort
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Boggard Ram-Gang

Spells
4 Tarfire
4 Lash Out
4 Flame Javelin
3 Shard Volley

21 Mountain

Ok now some explanation about the card choices:

Tattermunge Maniac - No brainer in this deck, much more stronger with the full suite of removal and Intimidator Initiate

Intimidator Initiate - The core of the deck. This little fella makes this deck worthwhile. This deck couldn't function without him, he makes sure, you're always ahead of the race. Burn one, other doesn't block, swing for x.

Brigheart Banneret - This might be questionable 2 drop, but I've chosen him over other options because he works quite nicely in the deck. He does make Crusher one cheaper, so you can actually Crush + something (pref. Volley in response to Inversion / Firespout:)) on turn 3. Also he makes Cohorts cheaper as well, which is quite important as you need mana for burn / intimidator. I've rarely used reinforce, but it could come in handy.

Mudbrawler Cohort - Usually 2/2 haste for 1R, gets cheaper with Banneret and great followup on 1 drop on turn 2

Countryside Crusher - Another key to the deck. I don't think that there's a deck that could utilise Crusher in a better way as you don't want to draw more than 3 land...

Boggard Ram-Gang - I'm still not sure about him. He's fine, but I can play Vaults (but that's not the only reason) because of him. I do like him better than 4/4, but I could be wrong. I still think this deck is about speed, so haste is essential.

Tarfire, Lash Out, Flame Javelin, Shard Volley - I don't think that burn need more comments.

So far decks works really good, Faeries don't have much chance, you actually have a fair game against GW and need to play carefully against Firespout decks, but your creatures need to deal their damage only once or twice to do their job. One thing that I'd love to do would be to run Mutavaults as manlands are great in the red decks. There are some things against running it:
1. I do want to play RRR 3 drop
2. Mutavault makes the Banneret useless (I need all the R I can get)
3. Could make Flame Javelin 4cc spell rather then 3cc, which is a great deal in this deck.

I'd appreciate any comments / views / ideas.

[cmlancas]

Quote:
Brigheart Banneret - This might be questionable 2 drop, but I've chosen him over other options because he works quite nicely in the deck. He does make Crusher one cheaper, so you can actually Crush + something (pref. Volley in response to Inversion / Firespout) on turn 3. Also he makes Cohorts cheaper as well, which is quite important as you need mana for burn / intimidator. I've rarely used reinforce, but it could come in handy.

Have you noticed that if you make this play you shut off 11 cards in your deck entirely?

Also, I think you need Mutavaults, and you need to cut the Bannerets.

[Komanc]

Quote:
Brigheart Banneret - This might be questionable 2 drop, but I've chosen him over other options because he works quite nicely in the deck. He does make Crusher one cheaper, so you can actually Crush + something (pref. Volley in response to Inversion / Firespout) on turn 3. Also he makes Cohorts cheaper as well, which is quite important as you need mana for burn / intimidator. I've rarely used reinforce, but it could come in handy.

Have you noticed that if you make this play you shut off 11 cards in your deck entirely?

Also, I think you need Mutavaults, and you need to cut the Bannerets.

Of course you do that only if you have other land in hand... I forgot to write that I consider playing Fulminator Mages instead of Boggard-Rams. As they get cheaper with Banneret and would allow me to play 2 mutavaults. And I know that Banneret seems very bad on paper, but he's been really great in testing. There aren't many better 2 drops in the format...

[GoblinChampion]

Bloodmark Mentor is certainly one of the best 2 drop creatures for red in block...

deck I been playing with:

4 tattermunge maniac
3 intimidator initiate
4 mudbutton clanger
4 mudbrawler cohort
3 bloodmark mentor
4 boggart ram gang

4 tarfire
4 giantbaiting
4 lash out
3 shared animosity

23 land of choice, I recommend mountains

[cmlancas]

The Mentor/Ram Gang synergy is amazing. I'm thinking of running the Mentor in my G/R Warriors deck to help me curve out and get the trample damage through.

Following your article earlier, how often do Nom Nom, Mentor, and Giantbaiting get in there?

[ebenezer_2000]

Goblin Champion: Please don't overly abbreviate your deck list. Thanks.

[GoblinChampion]

fixed

look again

[Komanc]

Bloodmark Mentor is certainly one of the best 2 drop creatures for red in block...

deck I been playing with:

4 tattermunge maniac
3 intimidator initiate
4 mudbutton clanger
4 mudbrawler cohort
3 bloodmark mentor
4 boggart ram gang

4 tarfire
4 giantbaiting
4 lash out
3 shared animosity

23 land of choice, I recommend mountains

Some interesting ideas, I'll try the Mentor as 2 drop. I don't know why you don't play Crusher as it seems just made for such a deck. If it's the Animosity, then I really don't like that card in current environment as it "forces" you to overextend, which I don't want to do in format with Firespout... What's your experience with Giantbaiting? I was thinking of including it as it seems quite good in this deck, I'd probably cut Shard Volleys and Elemental Bannerets for 3 mentors / 4 giantbaiting... Also 23 land in such a deck is not necessary, 22 will suffice perfectly, I'd even go to 21.

[GoblinChampion]

23 is actually essential for making it to 3 land by turn 3 or 4 consistently

[Kcnabrev]

Is Pyre charger a worthy two-drop?

[politeagression]

I think your best option, although expensive is to add black
-4 Intimidator Initiate +4 bitterblossum
-4 Brigheart Banneret +4 thoughtseize
-4 Mudbrawler Cohort +2 shriekmaw +2 lands

with the access to such great lands, it just seems better, I played against something very sim to the changes at PTQ belrin in hollywood, and it was very ruff, I got lucky and won but,but it was just luck. I played a very tuned fae list and went 6-1-2.

ehh, just an oppinion. I can see how you can even meta it more, and in certain sittuations have it be the perfect deck.

[v88]

heres a possible list

4x Figure of destiny
4x Tattermunge MAniac
4x Ashenmoor Gouger
4x Fulminator Mage
4x Stigma Lasher
4x Demigod of Revenge

4x Tarfire
4x Lash Out
4x Flame Javelin

24x Mountain

This is based off of the monored list seen in Buenos Aires piloted to day two.

[Kenron]

Why is nobody running spinerock knoll? Its nutty goodness.

[v88]

That actually seems like a really good idea as it sort of becomes an impulse, which is sorely needed in red decks without any card draw. That is officially added in the deck i posted above in place of four mountains

[Joker4515]

SO i have been testing the crap out of this deck on MWS and Magic Online, and with a test group. I am 39-6 in matches playedright now with this exact list. The Problem......Kithkin. 5 losses have been to Kithkin(and one to 5C control toss it up as bad play), and to make it worse I have no idea how to shore up the match in my SB. I am looking for some insight, input, and maybe some ideas I haven't thought of yet. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Land

22 Mountain

Creatures

4 Figure of Destiny
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Stigma Lasher
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Boggart Ram-Gang

Spells

4 Tarfire
2 Shard Volley
4 Lash Out
4 Flame Javelin

SB

4 Guttural Response
4 Fire at Will
4 Fulminator Mage
3 - ???( its been alot of stuff from burn trail to demigod to red command)

The MD is solid, so solid in fact that I won a large portion of those matches without ever sideboarding at all. I need help shoring up my SB and espcially trying to make the Kithkin match winnable. Or I need to decide to punt the kithkin match and just use the SB to shore up some weak spots vs. the rest of the field.

Matches -

Faeries 10-0
5C 7-1
Elementals 6-0
Kithkin 1-5
BG Elves 4-0
Merolk 5-0
Doran 2-0
Ugb 2-0
RB 1-0
Shamans 1-0

[sin_plague]

firespout with only red is still an upgraded pyroclasm..

[Joker4515]

yeah I have tried it, and gonna test it again so we'll see. With fire at will I can usually counter procession. The problem I have had with spout is that it forces me to play differently. When I have spout in hand I am not agressive, I sit back trying to get a 2-3 for one with spout without losing any creatures myself

[Falkor]

Maybe it's not the cards you use against Kithkin then, but the way you play your deck when you play against Kithkin. Next time, try to drop your normal curve, hit for early damage, then clear the board with Firespout, and see how low you can get Kithkin on life. If you can get them low enough, you may be able to use your burn for the win.

So, instead of using early burn on creatures, just play out your normal curve, Firespout, then play the burn.

See if that works?

[GoblinChampion]

I've been testing almost the exact same build without crushers, and I'm seeing the same results except slightly better against Kithkin. funny thing about the Kithkin matchup is that the biggest worry is Knight of Meadowgrain. with first strike, he lunks half of the early game plays, and with the lifelink, you're done without tarfire or lash out to kill him.

I have an article going up soon talking about my version of the mono-red, and I think the main difference is going to be the lack of crushers and volleys.

I'll have to try Fire at Will in the board just because, but mine looks like this:

4 shusher
4 demigod
1 mountain
1 unwilling recruit
5 rotating slots (Command, fulminator mage, boartusk liege, spitebellows, firespout all being tested)

I think you'll need to have Unwilling Recruits somewhere between the main and the side simply because of the mirror match. it's been the best card for me against other mono-red builds. Boartusk Liege is there for the same reason. no doubt mono-red will make a showing at Denver and PTQs with the addition of eventide. it just has the perfect curve now.

[GoblinChampion]

another option I've been testing is Moonglove Extract

working decently, but it's not ideal by any stretch. keeps us from getting housed by BFT, but other than that doesn't do much.

[Durloc]

Have you guys considered Chaotic Backlash in the board for Merfolk/Kithkin? You still need to deal with BFT, but it's a great way to make them pay for a Spectral Procession or Goat Ranger (gg for both!).

Also, Wild Ricochet in the mirror seems especially powerful.

These two, plus Demigod of Revenge and Ember Gale, make Gouger a better choice for the second 3cc creature than Crusher.

Granted, I haven't tested Backlash or Ricochet; I'm just trying to bounce ideas and put together a list.

[Myrmidon73]

Ricochet is decent in the mirror, but terrible everywhere else. I'd much rather be playing a spell with 4 mountains on the table than passively waiting for something (like a Cryptic Command) to happen.

I tested Murderous Redcap in the MD today, and overall, I really liked it. It helps the Kithkin and Merfolk matchup, and acts as a shock + 2 damage per turn for your opponents (unless they want to lose some small beater). Granted, I also tried playing Demigod in the MD, and overall, they both seem all right. (I cut out the Gougers and Unwilling Recruits from the MD).

Any thoughts?

[GoblinChampion]

chaotic backlash is my secret tech for denver

:D

my package against kithkin is extract and backlash and it works divinely

[Durloc]

That's good to know.

Has anyone tried a singleton Flame Jab in the main? I've played some matches without it and I've gotten Figure of Destiny to 8/8 more times than I thought I would, so I'm a little unsure about Flame Jab. However, it seems like it could have a place as a one of.

[GoblinChampion]

i decided against those. you don't want to think about whether you should be playing lands with this deck. less decisions is better

[Durloc]

Unless you win more games because you can make the decisions correctly more than 50% of the time. You really DO think aggro players are stupid : )

[jhammock85]

can this deck beat faeries on a consistent basis?

[GoblinChampion]

put simply... yes- my version can at least

[Falkor]

I disagree with Flame Jab in the main, but it depends upon the number of lands you run. I personally think that if you creep to about 25 lands, then Flame Jab should be in the deck to hit for damage in the late game.

[Char you]

what does mono red have for the mirror match? and what can it pay to have a better match up against doran?

[Icey101]

I thought about inside out for Doran but I hate sideboarding a card with single uses. I think Spitebellow is the best option vs Doran. As for red I really have not got a chance to test that match up yet, but hope to in the next few days.

[GoblinChampion]

trip noose....
heat shimmer...
unwilling recruit...

[Durloc]

For the mirror,

Reiterate
Boartusk Liege
Unwilling Recruit

I wouldn't sacrifice much space for the mirror, though, considering the need for a lot of SB space for Kithkin. This is looking at your likely chances of facing many more Kithkin and Faeries decks than other mono red decks.

[Durloc]

Sorry, that Reiterate should be Wild Ricochet.

My current SB is as follows:

2 Vexing Shusher
2 Spitebellows
4 Moonglove Extract
4 Chaotic Backlash
3 Flame Jab

I have two Shushers main. Comments?

[Char you]

thanks guys for your opinions. i played a ptq this last weekend and i lost to the mirror 2 matches and doran 1 match. i didnt really have a side board plan against the mirror. but against doran i never felt like i was in control..had a chance. i dont know why. the rest of the rounds i played faeries and 2-0 all 5 players. i ended up going 5-3...not too bad. i played 2 unwilling recuit in the side board along with 3 spitebellows. im thinking that i want to up my unwilling recruit or maybe play it in the main because it seems really good although you can abuse it with a sac outlet. well...this is my list that i will be playing in the next ptq-

// Lands
22 [UNH] Mountain
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
4 [SHM] Boggart Ram-Gang
4 [SHM] Tattermunge Maniac
4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [SHM] Ashenmoor Gouger
// Spells
4 [LRW] Lash Out
4 [SHM] Flame Javelin
4 [LRW] Tarfire
3 [EVE] Puncture Blast
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SHM] Guttural Response
SB: 3 [LRW] Moonglove Extract
SB: 3 [EVE] Chaotic Backlash
SB: 3 [EVE] Unwilling Recruit
SB: 3 [MOR] Spitebellows

[madcow305]

Question:

Why Moonglove Extract?

As far as I can tell, it's a Tarfire that costs 3 mana.

What is so good about it?

Also, why no Demigod of Revenge?

It can't be killed by most removal in the format, including Nameless and Firespout. It flies over defenders, and even if one dies, you can potentially draw a second and continue with the 2 beaters. The only thing that stops the Demigod-recursion is Crib Swap.

Also, I see that nobody is including any graveyard hate.

Is that because this deck is just too fast for any Lark/Mannequin decks to possibly keep pace, and you don't need graveyard hate to win?

EDIT: Also one thing for the Kithkin matchup:

Is Burrenton Forge-Tender worth putting in hate cards for?

Specifically, I'm asking whether it is worth it to run Everlasting Torment in the SB just for the Forge-Tender, or are they really not that big of a nuisance and don't need dedicated hate?

[Myrmidon73]

The Extract kills BFT. He is a HUGE deal, because he just blocks your guys all day long, and sacs himself to prevent the lethal Chaotic Backlash. Everlasting Torment helps against some random stuff (mainly Kitchen Finks and Primal Command), but it's DEAD if you draw two. This deck dies with dead draws. Everlasting Torment also doesn't stop BFT from blocking your guys all day long.

Demigod is ok; one of my playtesting partners is taking out the maniacs and adding another land for him. He can be ridiculously good, given the right circumstances. The problem is that he costs 5 mana, which is tough for a deck that curves out at 3, and really doesn't want to draw much more. On the plus side, he does give you a little better late game. But usually he's just a lava axe that kills them, or gets them into lethal range.

[Char you]

well actually, everlating torment does stop bft because everlasting torment says, damage cant be prevented, where bft has protection for red which says that damage is prevent. so is bft blocks a creature with everlasting torment on the field, the bft would die because damage cant be prevented negates the whole pro red.
if i were to play graveyard removal, it will be against elementals, but not many people play that deck, its very difficult. and still against elementals mra is pretty fast for that deck.
yeah demigod is a great card but if im holding one, i want to make sure that i draw five lands to cast it. a lot of times ill just get stuck at 4 so i just cut it for the liege who has better synergy with the creatures that i play. demigod gets wreaked by unmake and oblivion ring also, which are 2 of the best removal spells along wth crib swap.

[Smdster]

I'm wondering about the possibility of a black splash for nameless inversion MD. It wins against BFT and usually Doran as well (he becomes a 2/2).

If you swap some of the burn (I'm thinking possibly Lash Out) for nameless, you end up with 16 goblin spells to play Hovel with, so you could play 4 Hovel and 2-4 Graven Cairn. Thoughts?

[dead2me82]

I've kept my decklist extremely cheap and efficient. Let me know what you think:

1cc - 14 cards
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Tarfire
2 Flame Jab
2 Shard Volley

2cc - 8 cards
4 Vexing Shusher (possibly Stigma Lasher)
4 Lash-Out

3cc - 16 Cards
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Flame Javalin
4 Puncture Blast

22 Mountains


15 Sideboard:
3 Gutteral Response
3 Wild Ricochet (works well against all commands, Mirrorweave, burn spells, counters, etc....basically any decks out there)
3 Spitebellows
3 Chaotic Backlash
3 Moonglove Extract

[Durloc]

I think that Flame Jab is better than Gutteral Response vs. Faeries, but otherwise it looks good.

[Durloc]

Oh, I missed your Flame Jab's in the main, nevermind about the Responses.

Has anyone done the testing with Moonglove Extract vs. Everlasting Torment?

Torment +'s: Single copy shuts down all BFT and all life gain. Helps shrink Doran's dudes. No other decks play direct damage spells, so the wither ability is generally in your favor.
Torment -'s: Multiple copies are dead with no discard outlet. Vulnerable to enchantment removal prevalent in SBs vs. Faeries, although this alleviates the multiple copy problem.
Extract +'s: Multiple copies are not dead.
Extract -'s: Need to draw one per BFT, and doesn't help vs. lifegain.

I hadn't noticed the interaction between Torment and BFT's two abilities. I think I might consider siding it instead of Extract.

[v88]

Here's the list I plan on building

24x Mountain

4x Tattermunge Maniac
4x Figure of Destiny
4x Stigma Lasher
4x Ashenmoor Gouger
4x Boggart Ram-Gang
4x Demigod of Revenge

4x Tarfire
4x Lash Out
4x Fame Javelin

Sideboard
4x Moonglove Extract
3x Chaotic Backlash
4x Fulminator Mage
4x Spitebellows
I am still unsure about the sideboard, any suggestions?

[Durloc]

Alright, I just double-checked the comprehensive rules to make sure that protection prevented damage instead of reducing it to 0 and it does prevent it, so that's good. One thing that kind of sucks is that you still can't target the BFT to kill it, but I guess some combat damage will have to do the trick.

[madcow305]

I've kept my decklist extremely cheap and efficient. Let me know what you think:

1cc - 14 cards
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Tarfire
2 Flame Jab
2 Shard Volley

2cc - 8 cards
4 Vexing Shusher (possibly Stigma Lasher)
4 Lash-Out

3cc - 16 Cards
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Flame Javalin
4 Puncture Blast

22 Mountains


15 Sideboard:
3 Gutteral Response
3 Wild Ricochet (works well against all commands, Mirrorweave, burn spells, counters, etc....basically any decks out there)
3 Spitebellows
3 Chaotic Backlash
3 Moonglove Extract

I don't think the Vexing Shushers are needed mainboard. Or, if you really want them in mainboard, I don't think Guttural Response is needed in the SB.

Firstly, VS's ability costs 1 mana to play. Since you're trying to design a deck that tops out at 4 land and starts discarding them to Flame Jab, you won't be able to play Ram-Gang or Gouger AND activate VS's ability to prevent them from getting killed.

Secondly, VS is a dead draw vs. every deck except for Fae. Sure, Fae is like 60% of the decks out there, but you could still get unlucky and face Kithkin for 3 rounds or something. That's 4 dead cards for 3 game 1s.

I also, can we get confirmation that Everlasting Torment makes it so if BFT blocks a red dude, he still dies since damage can't be prevented?

If this is true, I would switch Moonglove Extract for Everlasting Torment.

Moonglove is just an over-glorified Tarfire, and its only use is pretty much for BFT.

Everlasting Torment works on Kitchen Finks, Knights of Meadowgrain, Pollen Lullaby, etc. I just feel it is a much more useful card. The only drawback is that Moonglove is an artifact, and Everlasting Torment is an enchantment. Kithkin does run Wispmare, but it doesn't run anything to kill artifacts besides O-ring.

Also, I really, really think Demigod is a must-have for this deck. Initiator is a POS, especially in a fast deck. You don't have that 1 extra mana to spend to make someone unable to block when you're dropping a 2cc on turn 2, 3cc on turn 3, etc.

So what happens in a lockup stalemate, vs. someone like Kithkin or maybe Elves? Heck, even Fae if they get a very fast draw backed up by removal.

You got a ton of guys on the ground, they got a ton of guys on the ground, and this deck doesn't have Pyroclasm to wipe the board and start the race over. Therefore, Demigod is the only answer, except for Backlash out of the SB. If they're clogging up your men on the ground, go aerial and hit them. Even if they O-ring or Crib Swap it later on, that's still 5 or more damage, which will greatly help you in burning them out.

One other thing: Puncture Blast. Anyone think it's worth it? I mean, what can Puncture Blast kill that Lash Out can't? The only use I can think of is combat tricks, like Puncture Blasting that Mistbind Clique so he can't kill your Demigod on the block.

Finally, is nobody is worried about Makeshift Mannequen/Lark/Elemental decks? Nobody is including any graveyard hate in the SB. These decks aren't dead you know, they make top 8 in PTQs all the time.

Here is my decklist for comparison:

Land: 24
4 Graven Cairns
20 Mountain

Creatures: 22
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Demigod of Revenge
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
2 Countryside Crusher
4 Bloodmark Mentor

Instants/Sorceries: 14
4 Tarfire
4 Flame Javelin
4 Lash Out
2 Flame Jab

Enchantments/Artifacts: 0

Sideboard: 15
4 Guttural Response
2 Spitebellows
3 Puppeteer Clique
3 Unwilling Recruit
3 Chaotic Backlash

EDIT: Ok since you just confirmed the Everlasting Torment, I'm swapping out 1 Backlash, and 2 Spitebellows for 3 Torments.

Reason being, Backlash you don't want to draw too early. You want to wait until Kithkin has maybe 5-6 guys on board for big damage, and if you draw it early, it's just a relatively dead card sitting in your hand.

I really don't understand the purpose of Spitebellows. There's nothing in this format that needs 6 damage to kill it, except Cloudthresher, and you should be killing them way before they get the mana to hardcast a thresher.

EDIT2: Anyone think Flame Jab and Countryside-Crusher are counterproductive to Figure of Destiny?

I mean, if they let your Figure live for long, it's going to be a 4/4, even in a deck that tops out very early. But the next phase in the transformation calls for 6 mana, which you might be able to hit later, but definately not if you play Countryside or keep Retracing Flame Jab.

[Durloc]

Countryside Crusher is inferior to Gouger or Ram-Gang because of the huge lack of synergy with a lot of cards: Flame Jab, Shard Volley, Figure of Destiny, and anything that costs over three mana. While probably better than Gouger or Ram-Gang in a vacuum, Crusher loses out because, if played on turn 3 (when it's at its best), it prevents you from playing certain sideboard cards like Backlash or Wild Ricochet (not to mention your main-deck Demigods) which are strictly better in their relevant match-ups. At least with Flame Jab, you get to choose whether or not it's prudent to play your land or use it for another purpose.

Speaking of demigods, they are a serious threat, however, they are fairly slow. I'm still debating on them. And against Kithkin, they are strictly inferior to Backlash, as the Kithkin player just sits back and blocks them all day long with spirit tokens. Instead you could be hitting them for 10+ to the dome and then finishing them off with burn (don't forget that Thistledown Liege does 4 to them!).

While Shusher in the main is debatable, Shusher is certainly better than Guttural Response against Fae. They side out Broken Ambitions against us anyway, and Response can't counter Spellstutter Sprite. That leaves you countering Cryptic Command or Ponder, only 6 cards in their deck. Instead, Shusher beats down, and occasionally lets you get a spell through.

Everlasting Torment just keeps getting better and better to me now that I've thought about it. I had also forgotten about the Ajani's that were showing up in the Japanese Kithkin decks in Kobe; this is another thing that Torment takes care of.

Lash Out is better than Puncture Blast, but Puncture Blast has definite uses against Doran's huge creatures. I don't think anyone would replace Lash Out with Puncture Blast, but having both doesn't hurt.

[Durloc]

I take that back about the Chaotic Backlash dealing 4 for a blue and white permanent. You only count each permanent once.

[Char you]

guteral response is amazing. hands down. and i have seen faerie builds that play cards from consign to dreams,negate, and snake form. and its not only against faeries. there is merfolk and anything with a counter spell. and also being able to counter one of the best cards in the whole block(cryptic command) is good enough. i dont know, personal opinion. and lashout and puncture blast, well, you should proabbly be playing both of them. lash out is great against the early game little creatures and puncture blast is great for the late game combat tricks, especialy against chameleon colossus. wither is an amazing mechanic.

[Icey101]

I have not got a chance to test everlasting torment, but the issue I see is Moonglove Extract can not be O-ringed where the Everlasting Torment can. Sure the torment gives all your damage wither...but I run 8 wither creatures and 4 wither spells main deck, so finks are rarely every a problem.

As for Lashout being better than Puncture Blast...I personally would rather use both of them. I might go 4 lashouts and 3 puncture blast main deck though. The thing about puncture blast is it goes to their face if you need it. There has been several times I have couple puncture blast and flame javlins in my hand that I just start EOTing to their face. Lashout to me is more about killing a creature, putting a land on top or bottom...then everyonce in awhile three damage to them.

Gutteral Response vs Vexing Shusher...my view is if you expect a ton of Fae match ups vexing shusher would be a choice main deck. But once I go to sideboard I would rather have a Gutteral Response more times than a shusher. I am not sure how many though my last tourney I ran 3 Gutteral repsonse in my sideboard...and at times I felt like this was to many, becasue I would sometimes be sitting there with two in my hand.

If wild ricochet is such a good card verse most decks out there why not run them main deck? I plan on testing this tonight, one or two of them might find their way into my deck main.

[v88]

ok after a little thought maybe this should be my sideboard. totally blanked out about guttural response and faerie macabre.

3x Faerie Macabre
2x Spitebellows
4x Moonglove Extract
3x Chaotic Backlash
3x Guttural Response

This of course pushes out the fulminator mages, which brings up the question, should they be in the main acting sorta like magus of the moon in the standard version of the deck. hmmm.

Another sideboard option I'm pondering is ember gale. maybe as a two of against kitchin. It can force through damage and kill there token dudes if you kill all their lords first.

[madcow305]

Countryside Crusher is inferior to Gouger or Ram-Gang because of the huge lack of synergy with a lot of cards: Flame Jab, Shard Volley, Figure of Destiny, and anything that costs over three mana. While probably better than Gouger or Ram-Gang in a vacuum, Crusher loses out because, if played on turn 3 (when it's at its best), it prevents you from playing certain sideboard cards like Backlash or Wild Ricochet (not to mention your main-deck Demigods) which are strictly better in their relevant match-ups. At least with Flame Jab, you get to choose whether or not it's prudent to play your land or use it for another purpose.

Speaking of demigods, they are a serious threat, however, they are fairly slow. I'm still debating on them. And against Kithkin, they are strictly inferior to Backlash, as the Kithkin player just sits back and blocks them all day long with spirit tokens. Instead you could be hitting them for 10+ to the dome and then finishing them off with burn (don't forget that Thistledown Liege does 4 to them!).

While Shusher in the main is debatable, Shusher is certainly better than Guttural Response against Fae. They side out Broken Ambitions against us anyway, and Response can't counter Spellstutter Sprite. That leaves you countering Cryptic Command or Ponder, only 6 cards in their deck. Instead, Shusher beats down, and occasionally lets you get a spell through.

Everlasting Torment just keeps getting better and better to me now that I've thought about it. I had also forgotten about the Ajani's that were showing up in the Japanese Kithkin decks in Kobe; this is another thing that Torment takes care of.

Lash Out is better than Puncture Blast, but Puncture Blast has definite uses against Doran's huge creatures. I don't think anyone would replace Lash Out with Puncture Blast, but having both doesn't hurt.

Ok, I'm cutting my Countryside Crushers.

About the Demigods: I guess they're better in Standard than in Block. In Standard, the most popular decks are Fae, Elves, Merfolk, Lark, RDW, etc.

Many of those decks don't have fliers.

In Block, Fae and Kithkin, which make up like 80% of all decks, both have fliers.

Even so, I am still unsure about the Demigod->Boartusk Liege swap. I just wish there was something better than a 4-mana lord that basically only gives +1/+1 to most of your creatures, given that they aren't red/green.

About Vexing Shusher: run 2 in MB, 2 in SB imo. Against every other deck except Fae, they're just a 2/2 for 2cc, not really that good. Even against Fae, in order to activate the Shusher you need to wait an extra turn, dropping a 3CC on turn 4, and 4CC on turn 5. Given that red decks rely on tempo, a one-turn setback could be significant. In addition, the Shusher dies to most removal.

Cut the Guttural Responses. In their place, play Wild Ricochet. Responses and Ricochet fulfill much of the same purpose against Kithkin/Fae.

I'm not worried about Doran. He dies to a Lash Out + a 2/2 chumper, or Lash Out + Tarfire, etc.

Now, about the overall direction of this deck:

I really don't know if we should stay mono-red if we're going to cut Demigod in place of Boartusk Liege.

The sole reason to play mono-red in this deck is for Ashenmoor and Demigod. If we're going to cut Demigod for Boartusk, Ashenmoor alone isn't enough of a reason to remain mono-red, imo.

Going red/green would have many advantages and some disadvantages:

- Figure of Destiny is unplayable in red/green, it's activation abilities are too red-intensive.

+ We could add in more R/G creatures to take advantage of Boartusk, making it not just a Glorious Anthem.

- Ashenmoor has to go.

+ Tattermunge Witch. Great addition to the deck at a 2drop, which this deck needs.

+ Dual-color Firespout. Previously if we wanted to play Spout, we could only hit ground creatures. Now we can do both air/ground.

+ Access to Deus of Calamity. This may not seem very impressive, but think about this: We can kill blockers after they declare them with burn. That leaves the Deus open to deal 6 damage during Combat Damage phase, killing one of their lands. Heck, if we have a Boartusk Liege out, Deus might not even need burn to clear a path.

+ If we go red/green, we can MB 4 Vexing Shusher. With the lord in play, they're no longer mediocre 2/2s for 2cc. This makes the deck more resistant to Fae in the MB, and still good against other decks like Kithkin, making Vexing Shusher not worthless.

- Puppeteer Clique has to go in the SB. This deck can't splash black. If we want GY removal, we're gonna have to stick with the mediocre Fairy Macabre.

Here's the list I was thinking of:
Land: 24
4 Fire-Lit Thicket
10 Mountain
10 Forest

Creatures: 26
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Boartusk Liege
3 Tattermunge Witch
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Boggart-Ram Gang
2 Deus of Calamity
2 Bloodmark Mentor

Instants/Sorceries: 10
2 Tarfire
4 Flame Javelin
4 Lash Out

Enchantments/Artifacts: 0

Sideboard: 15
3 Wild Ricochet
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Unwilling Recruit
3 Chaotic Backlash
3 Firespout

Theoretical Matchups, in comparison with your version of RDW and my version:

Fae - Remains the same when compared with your version, and improves the matchup compared to my version. Your version already runs 4 maindeck Shushers. The addition of Tattermunge Witch might even improve the matchup compared to your version. No more chump-blocking 1/1 Bitterblossom tokens.

Kithkin - Improved on both our versions. My RDW relied too heavily on Demigod, while yours played Boartusk but didn't have enough R/G Creatures for it to pump. This new R/G version has lots of pumped R/G creatures, so Boartusk is giving out +2/+2 most of the time.

[Durloc]

I think that the Kithkin SB strategy should be either/or: Ember Gale fights with Chaotic Backlash by killing their tokens. However, the no block ability of Ember Gale can help get them within Backlash range. Backlash being an instant is also very useful.

[dead2me82]

I've considered Wild Ricochet in the main as a 2-of.

Puncture Blast - brings Chameleon Colossus, Doran, Demigod, Mistbind, Kitchen Finks, Oona, Lieges, and your opponent down to a more manageable size. Absolutely a must in this format.

Everlasting Torment is still a great SB option...in fact, I ran 3 in the SB at Regionals.

Gutteral Response - PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't forget that this card hits Cryptic Command, Broken Ambitions, Mirrorweave, Cosign to Dream, Dream Fracture, Repel Intruders, and Snakeform. If you can find a deck that plays blue that doesn't run at least two of the above mentioned cards, then you're playing against a jank opponent anyway and should win.

[Durloc]

While jumping to RG has a few advantages (namely making creature vs. creature match-ups better in your favor), losing Figure of Destiny hurts. Also, Nettle Sentinel and Tattermunge Witch seem a little, I don't know, bad? You just commented on how we don't have time to play Shusher's ability until turn 4, but now you want to play the Witch's ability?

I'm not sure who's RG list you were referring to, but I think I like the mono red versions better.

[v88]

yeah i have no idea about the ember gale, backlash thing. Another idea for the sideboard: deus of calamity for the mirror as the huge butt and trample make it a big threat against other red decks. Not sure if there is room though. Hmm. here's something that may work

3x Faerie Macabre
2x Spitebellows
3x Moonglove Extract
2x Deus of Calamity
2x Chaotic Backlash (maybe ember gale)
3x Guttural Response

[Myrmidon73]

well actually, everlating torment does stop bft because everlasting torment says, damage cant be prevented, where bft has protection for red which says that damage is prevent. so is bft blocks a creature with everlasting torment on the field, the bft would die because damage cant be prevented negates the whole pro red.

I'm pretty protection that protection implies that all damage dealt to him is reduced to zero; it's not prevented. Kinda like how life loss will kill you if you have an active Worship in play.

[madcow305]

I think that the Kithkin SB strategy should be either/or: Ember Gale fights with Chaotic Backlash by killing their tokens. However, the no block ability of Ember Gale can help get them within Backlash range. Backlash being an instant is also very useful.

Ember Gale is stupid. Pollen Lullaby rapes it.

"GG I can't block! In response, POLLEN LULLABY OOPS I WON THE CLASH GG U LOSE NO RE."

Backlash is ownage.

I've considered Wild Ricochet in the main as a 2-of.

Puncture Blast - brings Chameleon Colossus, Doran, Demigod, Mistbind, Kitchen Finks, Oona, Lieges, and your opponent down to a more manageable size. Absolutely a must in this format.

Everlasting Torment is still a great SB option...in fact, I ran 3 in the SB at Regionals.

Gutteral Response - PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't forget that this card hits Cryptic Command, Broken Ambitions, Mirrorweave, Cosign to Dream, Dream Fracture, Repel Intruders, and Snakeform. If you can find a deck that plays blue that doesn't run at least two of the above mentioned cards, then you're playing against a jank opponent anyway and should win.

Lash Out is the same as Puncture Blast.

"Oh Doran u swinging for 5!!? Bock with Shusher, Lash Out, GG."

Nobody is forgetting what Guttural Response does. The thing is, Wild Ricochet does it better. Is is worth the higher mana cost? We'll just have to test and see.

While jumping to RG has a few advantages (namely making creature vs. creature match-ups better in your favor), losing Figure of Destiny hurts. Also, Nettle Sentinel and Tattermunge Witch seem a little, I don't know, bad? You just commented on how we don't have time to play Shusher's ability until turn 4, but now you want to play the Witch's ability?

I'm not sure who's RG list you were referring to, but I think I like the mono red versions better.

Nettle Sentinel is amazing. It is basically a 2/2 Vigilance 1cc with no drawbacks, because you should be casting a green creature every turn.

Turn 1: Nettle Sentinel, go.
Turn 2: Swing with Sentinel, play Shusher, Sentinel untaps, go.
Turn 3: Swing with Sentinel, play Tattermunge Witch, Sentinel untaps, go. (alternatively, you can play Ram-Gang before you attack, and sacrifice a 2/2 defender for 3 additional damage).
Etc.

Tattermunge Witch's activation ability is different from Shushers, because you HAVE to activate Shusher or risk a counterspell. You don't HAVE to activate the Witch's. You could just let them all chump block without trampling through for damage. He is also R/G and gets +2/+2 from the lord.

Regardless, I agree that Tattermunge Witch is no killer, ZOMG 2drop. He's simply a filler who is the right colors, and has a decent ability.

If you don't want to run R/G, I really can't see putting in Boartusk Liege.

Isn't there some better creature to run in a mono-red deck?

[madcow305]

By the way guys, I just realized we're worrying too much about Mirrorweave and thinking up hate ideas when we already have them in the MB: burn spells.

"I attack with my 3 Spectral Procession tokens. Before damage goes on the stack, I play Mirrorweave, targetting my Cenn. Take 15."

"Not so fast buddy. In response to Mirrorweave, I'm going to Tarfire that Cenn. I'll take 3."

Hell, if you really, REALLY wanted hate-cards that badly, Fire at Will is perfect!

"I attack with my 3 Spectral Procession tokens. Before damage goes on the stack, I play Mirrorweave, targetting my Cenn. Take 15."

"Not so fast buddy. In response to Mirrorweave, I'm going to Fire At Will your tokens. I'll take nothing. Can I go?"

Of course, except for Spectral Procession tokens, there's not much else Fire At Will is good for that other burn can't do just as well.

I still prefer using the burn already in this deck to stifle an attempted Mirrorweave driveby.

[Eviljello]

Still would love to see a build that finds a home for double cleave.

[Curdo]

Land
20 Mountain
4 Vivid Crag

Creatures
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Stigma Lasher (Or 2 Stigma Lasher and 2 Flame Jab, if I don't get the extra 2 Lashers I need)
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Boggart Ram-Gang

Spells
4 Lash Out
4 Rekindled Flame
4 Tarfire
4 Puncture Blast
4 Flame Javelin

Sideboard
4 Moonglove Extract
3 Guttural Response
4 Spitebellows
4 Firespout

I'm still thinking whether to have Moonglove Extract or Everlasting Torment. The + about the torment is that it handles protection creatues, persist and life gain alltogether; and dealing wither to big creatures is not bad at all. However, the 2nd Torment on the hand would be a dead card. I know there are a few removers, so sometimes it won't be THAT dead.
The other thing that I was not sure about was about the Firespout. I have the Crags there to kill all the fae. I thought about Chaotic Backlash in it's place, but if you get to deal serious damage to someone with Chaotic backlash is cause you are either about to win or very dead, and it is good only with Kithkins and merfolk (and a bit with fae as well).
The Demigod of Revenge is a nice card as well, but too expensive considering the mana curve.

Any thoughts / tips / advise?

[dead2me82]

Lash Out is the same as Puncture Blast.

"Oh Doran u swinging for 5!!? Bock with Shusher, Lash Out, GG."


Except you just lost your shusher.

I would rather not have to use a creature to kill another creature, but two burn spells. It's better to have your creatures dealing the damage to your opponent continuously than getting 1-timers out of your burn.

Puncture Blast allows you to shrink a large creature down so that
1. you can let it swing through and not take as much damage
2. put it in range of another burn spell
3. Wait till blockers are assigned, shrink the guy, and now his creature deals less damage to yours, while yours kills it.

Lash-Out won't affect their power...Lash-Out isn't permanent, so you have to wait until you either have another way to deal damage, or draw more land to play multiple spells. Puncture Blast can buy you time.

[Myrmidon73]

I'm having some issues with the Sideboard.

I know I'm including
4 Extract/Torment
3 Backlash

For the other 8 slots, what are some possible choices?
Unwilling Recruit
Spitebellows
Trip Noose
Shusher
Guttural Response
Boartusk Liege
Faerie Macabre
Deus of Calamity

I'm trying to build a list for Denver, so what is to be expected? I'm expecting 25-35% Fae, so I think maybe

3 Guttural Response could be added.

Now, I have 5 slots. I think SBing for the mirror is the best option at this point, but what?

I was thinking like:
3 Unwilling Recruit (none played MD)

but 2x of what else?

What do I need to change for the Denver meta?

[Char you]

my assumption is that you wil see a lot of kithkin and faeries so, my board would look something like this -

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EVE] Unwilling Recruit/Wild Ricochet
SB: 3 [SHM] Guttural Response
SB: 3 [EVE] Chaotic Backlash
SB: 3 [MOR] Spitebellows
SB: 3 [SHM] Everlasting Torment

unwilling recruit for the mana ramp or doran. even the mirror match it seems fine.
wild ricochet is great in the mirror. but i think thats about all.
gutteral response against fish or faeries, anything that is counter based
chaotic backlash against fish or kithkin. anything aggro thats blue and/or white
spitebelows against doran or mana ramp. anything jank that plays big creatures
everlasting torment against anything life gain, like kitchen finks or primal command and anything burrention forge-tender. even against pollen lullaby and batwing brume. also against doran, turn all your burn into wither. torment is great
this is what i would run. i think i covered most of the threats. probably wild ricochet over unwilling recruit. its not necessary to have threaten. i dont know. threaten does seem good.

[Durloc]

My current board is

1 Guttural Response
1 Wild Ricochet
1 Flame Jab
1 Moonglove Extract
3 Everlasting Torment
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Chaotic Backlash

Kithkin is the matchup that you really have a tough time winning, so I dedicated a lot of my sideboard to it. Fae is pretty easy, even without sideboarding, but since the matchup will be prevalent, there's a decent amount of hate too. The rest is for the mirror, plus Ricochet and Torment aren't bad against Doran. I'm weak against Lark, but I don't feel like they're fast enough, nor anywhere near prevalent enough, to dedicate sb space to.

[Peterwiggin1978]

How about this for a SB:

4 Firespout (for the Kithkin and Elves)
3 Everlasting Torment (same as above)
3 Chaotic Backlash (for Kithkin and Faeries)
2 Faerie Macabre (for the Lark decks)
3 Unwilling Recruit (for the mirror match or midrange)

I think that most folks aren't thinking about the fact that over 11% of all standard decks at Nationals were mono-red. Even though this is Block, I think that one has to prepare for the mirror match and not just race.

[Durloc]

I haven't done much testing in the mirror, but Wild Ricochet seems superior to Recruit, especially considering that it IS pretty much just a race.

EDIT: The only downside is that it is a reactive card. However, it's strength in the mirror forgives its lack of proactivity.

[Char you]

I'm pretty protection that protection implies that all damage dealt to him is reduced to zero; it's not prevented. Kinda like how life loss will kill you if you have an active Worship in play.

what are you talking about it being reduced to 0? it doesnt work like that. with torment in play and you block a red creature with BFT, BFT will die. and sacrificing the bft doesnt do anything. torment makes bft terrible. although you cant target him, im not worried about a 1/1. and with firespout and backlash, your game 2/3 are amazing for your worst match up.

[Smdster]

Here's what I'm running:

4x Figure of Destiny
4x Tattermunge Maniac
4x Stigma Lasher
4x Boggart Ram-Gang
4x Ashenmoor Gouger

2x Nameless Inversion
4x Lash Out
4x Tarfire
4x Puncture Blast
4x Flame Javelin

4x Auntie's Hovel
4x Graven Cairn
14x Mountain

SB:
2x Nameless Inversion
3x Guttural Response
3x Unwilling Recruit
2x Faerie Macabre
3x Chaotic Backlash
2x Wild Richochet

My hope is that the MD is stronger against Kithkin who are MDing Forge-Tender, then I can SB like this:
-4 Tattermunge -4 Puncture Blast +3 Guttural Response +2 Nameless Inversion +3 Chaotic Backlash

Thoughts? I'm debating Vexing Shusher vs Guttural Response, I like response because it can actually cause them to waste a spell, and can counter Cryptic Command and Mirrorweave. But I can see the possible value of Shusher as well.

[dead2me82]

Wow Smdster, did you just copy my decklist from the previous page and throw in Nameless Inversion and some dual lands in place of Flame Jab? I think so!

Actually, I really like the idea of splashing black just for Nameless Inversion. It does give a little more reach against Kithkin.

[Smdster]

Oh, one more thing, what do people think of Inside Out as tech against Doran? Worthwhile compared to Spitebellows or not?

[Char you]

spitebellows is played agains other decks other then doran. any deck that plays late games beats. any ramp deck it seems redick against

[Char you]

btw puncture blast and ram gang are mvp againt doran or any deck like it

[madcow305]

Ok, so has anyone done any testing of Everlasting Torment?

I still don't know how well we fare against Kithkin with Torment in, or whether it is worth siding in vs. decks like Doran.

[Eviljello]

i think eyeblight's is a better choice. Everlasting torment is pretty much the best for 5c Control decks using runed halo. the wither part of everlasting torment will let kithkin roll us with the 2/2 first striker and so on.

[madcow305]

i think eyeblight's is a better choice. Everlasting torment is pretty much the best for 5c Control decks using runed halo. the wither part of everlasting torment will let kithkin roll us with the 2/2 first striker and so on.

Bloodmark Mentor makes all of our guys first strikers.

[Eviljello]

but what do you take out for it... The deck is already pretty much packed..

[madcow305]

but what do you take out for it... The deck is already pretty much packed..

Land: 24
24 Mountain

Creatures: 20
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Demigod of Revenge
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Bloodmark Mentor

Instants/Sorceries: 16
4 Puncture Blast
4 Flame Javelin
4 Lash Out
4 Tarfire

Enchantments/Artifacts: 0

What do I need to take out? Shushers are in the sideboard, not main.

[Icey101]

Through my testing for GP Denver, I used the following decklist.
23 Mountain
3 Tattermung Maniac
4 Figure of Destiny
2 Demigod of Revenge
2 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Stigma Lasher
4 Ramgangs
4 Puncture Blasts
4 Flame Javelin
4 Lash Out
4 Tarfire
2 Rekindle Flame

Now for the reasons on a few of the cards.

First only two Demigods, through playtesting I would always draw opening hands with two or three of them. Or later in the game I would get stuck at 4 mana (even when I played 24-25 land) and not be able to drop them. Two really seemed to be the perfect number for me, I played them more as a 5/4 hasty creature than anything else. Plus most people would side board thinking that I have four of them.

Only 3 Tattermung Maniacs and not 4? Well the reason for this was turn one they are a great drop...but after that their use quickly goes away. Three of these really seemed to work out for me. Depending on the deck I faced, these would normally come out first for another two Ashenmorr Gougers I ran in board.

Stimga Lasher, I really think is needed in the deck. If not for anything his wither ability. With him, ramgangs and puncture blasts the Kitchen finks would normally only be two life gained verse four. Sure you would trade creatures alot of times, but normally this worked out for me.

On to Rekindle Flame, I orginally tested four main deck, then three, finally I went down to two for my second Demigod. I really like this card for two reasons, first it gives me another two answers to CC. Second four damage for four mana to the face is not bad, and it forces alot of people to keep a card in their hand.

My sideboard was all over the place, and the only thing I wish I had and took out at the last minute was Spitebellows. Overall though I am not sure if I would have changed it.

[VeNjuNsE]

why is no one mentioning thunderblust. i find it to be amazing when you use it with spinerock knoll. if they are really low, one slip up and its gg.of course you need a couple of bigger mana guys to make it worth it but some creatures like ashenmoor gouger, demigod, or another thunderblust is game ending.

[Icey101]

I debated about thunderblust...but he dies to just about any blocker first time around. And while he has trample, a tarfar or peppersmoke will easily take him out.

[Eviljello]

Land: 24
24 Mountain

Creatures: 20
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Demigod of Revenge
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Bloodmark Mentor

Instants/Sorceries: 16
4 Puncture Blast
4 Flame Javelin
4 Lash Out
4 Tarfire

Enchantments/Artifacts: 0

What do I need to take out? Shushers are in the sideboard, not main.

Running bloodmark where most would put stigma thats the filled slot I would use stigma over bloodmark just because of the wither and negation of life gain.

[VeNjuNsE]

icyicyicy.... the whole point is that when they have everything tapped out, you drop him and swing. it can really give you an edge game one when they are expecting it. also, you have SIXTEEN BURN SPELLS! he will NOT be chump blocked by a little creature. if anything he will be steamrolling something with a 4ish toughness or perhaps he'll just charge though. the worst that can happen, you're saying, is that you gain a 2 for 1 card advantage.

[Osito1]

Icey...

Other than figure and javelin (the 2 staples of the deck)
The next best card you have is Demigod. To run only two seems crazy.
Pick any 2 other cards in the deck and cut them first, because they are strictly worse than the 3rd and 4th Demigod.
Good luck in the PTQ.
PS make sure the 2 cards aren't figures, javelins, or the other 2 demigods!
Ok now go crush some dreams with the power of fire!!!!!!

[Icey101]

I might agree if I had not had such an issue with them. I tried playing Demigod deck in regionals...I ran 4 demi gods. I would either draw 3 in opening hand and have to mull since there was no land...or not see them at all. Out of the whole regionals I actually cast a total of four demi gods. The rest either sat in my hand waiting for me to draw a fourth land (I ran 25 land) or I just didn't draw them when I had the five land.

As for only running two demigods...it worked out for me. I drew them when I needed them and could cast them, I didn't get stuck with them in my hand.

Running two for me was a personal choice, becuase of how I normally draw. I also wanted more than 4 answers main deck for Chamelon Collosus, so I ran Rekindle Flames in the spot most people run the other two Demigods.

[Rakavolver]

Ah, Red. Hey, nobody commented on Justin Vizaro's (Goblin Champion's) GP Denver deck in the Replies section as described in his main page article (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=8173), and by that I mean my deconstruction of the deck by mana curve, so I will re-list said breakdown as follows and hopefully one of you Red experts can comment on his choices:

1cc

4 Figure of Destiny
4 Tarfire

2cc

4 Painter's Servant
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Lash Out

3cc

4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Flame Javelin

4cc

4 Boartusk Liege

5cc

4 Demigod of Revenge
2 Chaotic Backlash

+24 Mountains + the following sideboard for the record:

2 Ashenmoor Gouger
1 Chaotic Backlash
2 Murderous Redcap
4 Puncture Blast
4 Stigma Lasher
2 Vexing Shusher

While a 8-10-8-4-6 mana curve doesn't strike me as the most efficient, I am liking the low end (1cc to 3cc) of the curve. What else would you have him play?

And on a less serious note ... or more serious note ... (Why so serious?) .....

My avatar today is of a "Portable Field Model Pulsed Infra Red Laser," i.e., a ray gun. You can pick up an assembled one for $500 US. A wag once noted that "Ray Guns are the future ... and always will be in the future!" i.e., they live in the realm of science fiction only. Not true, not any more. There's a new "Widowmaker" on the block. Just a tip: be nice to people, and if you're packing one of these, don't wave it around in public, but that's true of any gun. A brave new world, indeed.

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[Eviljello]

I like justin's idea, But I would have gone full force with it. Switched the Shusher with guttural. I am finding ppl are playing less and less hard counters, and once they see the shusher they are going to use cryptic to just tap and draw.. Guttural is just so much better. Also g2-g3 fae the main reason we bring in shusher lower their counter count and bring in Consign to Dream. Which just ruins our day.. having a spell countered is bad, but having our creatures put back on top of our library that is just heart breaking.

To finish out his deck I would have taken out Liege and put in the puncture blast. The main weakness we have is kith, a liege is NOT going to help that.. Its going to fuel their mirrorweave that much faster. you dropping liege on t4 with a spectural out is game over.. Thats the main reason I hate HATE demigod, you feel soo tough with it out then it always back fires.. ppl laugh but my SB with kith is taking demis out the toughest creature i have is a 3/3 ramgang no point in keeping big targets for them to weave and end it faster.

So far the hardest thing for ppl to get about red decks Not saying this goes to gobo champ but Red is VERY VERY reactive.. You may drop a few creatures in t1-t3 but after that you do nothing but attack unless you have to. It is VERY easy to beat fae properly played. They EoT flash something in.. After it resolves or in response you burn them. I see alot of ppl doing the burn during combat and wasting mana walking into the counters. Anytime I have beaten toast was EoT burn after they tried to cast thresher, or abuse Oona's Grace. BAM take 6 to the head with flame javs tar fires puncture blast whatever you have..

Now I have a question.. Maybe it should goto Q/A but I will leave it to you red gods to decide. If I Unwilling Recruit an Archon of Justice and it dies that turn does it A. Go into my graveyard and B. Do i then get to pick the perm that is removed from the game.

[GoblinChampion]

Now I have a question.. Maybe it should goto Q/A but I will leave it to you red gods to decide. If I Unwilling Recruit an Archon of Justice and it dies that turn does it A. Go into my graveyard and B. Do i then get to pick the perm that is removed from the game.

quickly: it goes into its owner's yard, and the last player who controlled it chooses the target for the ability.

[Rakavolver]

Sounds like a good way for MonoRed to handle Toast, Justin, so why don't you run Unwilling Recruits? I'll guess it's because Faeries and Kithkin are your enemies, and for the moment, the mirror. Is that right?

Eviljello, I can't think of a single "stolen" card that, when it dies, doesn't goes to its owners' graveyard. The interaction is nevertheless interesting. Toast can't Firespout (with green mana in play) the stolen AJ because Firespout is a Sorcery , but what else are you worried about, from Toast?

Well let's see. There's Shriekmaw, that has a Sorcery feel to it, so no.

Cryptic Command the eternal pain, k. Austere Command is a bit heavy. Runed Halo is a bit annoying. Plumeveil out of the board, OK.

I dunno, doesn't seem the question would come up that often.

[Eviljello]

I am just wondering on 2 slots in my deck right now.. I don't see a reason to go above 23 mana, and well 4 tattermung is a bit extreme with decks like kith running around. I have 3 tatter MD and 23 lands instead of 24 leaves me with 2 spare cards. I was using eyeblight's ending to improve the kith match.. But what do you guys think about Unwilling recruits in that spot? I guess it comes down do I want to go for lethal or get them on the ropes sooner or blaze the path? Like a t3 doran can be a smack in the face.. But when you steal it and smack him back its that much more fun lol.

[Rakavolver]

Like a t3 doran can be a smack in the face.. But when you steal it and smack him back it's that much more fun lol.

Truer words were never spoken, but I'm an old Threaten man of yore. Man I loved that card. Got beat by it, and beat with it, though honestly it beat me more. Tough call, but aren't those last 2 board card choices always the toughest?

[drumcowboy27]

I've been working on a red deck for the entire block season and I cannot stress enough how good Unwilling Recruit is at turning around unfavorable match ups like Doran and Archon Toast. It's even better in the mirror match. Here's the final deck I took to the GenCon PTQ:

Creatures: 24
4 Tattermunge Manic
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Heartlash Cinder
4 Boggart Ram Gang
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Demigod of Revenge

Other Spells: 14
4 Tarfire
4 Lash Out
4 Flame Javelin
2 Puncture Blast

22 Moutain

Sideboard:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Guttural Response
3 Unwilling Recruit
3 Chaotic Backlash
2 Puncture Blast

[Osito1]

I honestly have no idea how this beats kithkin.
I played kithkin against red, and they have almost no chance.
Even if they play firespout, which none of these lists have.
Between forge-tender and oversoul, it is almost an auto loss. What do you guys do against kithkin?

[andrew24373]

i think they play the moon glove the artifact for 3 sac deal 2 to a dude or your face to take out the tender and i gusse that they just kinda try to race kithkin

[revengeanceful]

I don't think a lot of people are playing Oversoul in their Kithkin decks, so the way to deal with Forge-Tender is either to splash black for Soul Snuffers and Festercreep, or play Moonglove Extract to Kill Forge-Tenders and Chaotic Backlash to end the game quickly.

[Marke]

Some of these lists running 22 land and 4 demigod i cant help wonder what your thinking. So many games you will not be able to cast one in time and other games when you can you will likely not have drawn 2 in which case demigod isnt THAT special. Offcourse i know lash out can help you find lands but do you really WANT that? With the aggresive builds that include tattermunge and some 2 drop (which i think are better in the relatively slow metagame) its just better in my opinion to go for 22 lands and no demigods. 4 extra spots for the early part of your curve adds so much more consistency.
My list now is:
4x figure
2x tattermunge
3x vexing shushe
3x stigma lasher
4x boggart
4x gouger

4x lash out
4x tarfire
4x flame javelin
4x puncture blast
2x profane command

9x mountain
4x graven cairns
4x auntie's hovel
4x reflecting pool
1x swamp

SB:
4x soul snuffers
1x festercreep
1x profane command
2x spitebellows
3x beckon apparition
3x inside out
1x vexing shusher

I like to keep the curve relatively low and thus dont play the moonglove/backlash thing for kithkin so i have to choose for black. The lone swamp is needed as my 9th swamp but it rarely effects your curve so it doesnt matter (1 graven cairns solves the problem).
Furthermore with archon toast which all plays 4x finks, i think lasher earns it spot again and shusher (goblin important for hovel) still keeps it. This means i have to cut 2 tattermunge which is subpar. As a more lategame spell i chose for profane command because of its great versatility. It is a maindeck answer to forge tender, is even good casted at 3 mana to return a figure and give a creature fear and just owns when you do get to cast it for 5 mana (maybe moreso then demigod).
In the board 4x snuffers is an auto include as your best option against anything with tokens. Festercreep is kind of the 5th one and another profane helps as extra removal against forge tender and can just get you wins in stalemates by choosing lifeloss and fear. Beckon apparition is the best answer to QnT in my opinion because it helps against finks, oona's grace and makeshift and always gives a 1/1 at least. Spitebellows and inside out are the best answers against doran where inside out has been best for me being able to kill with cantrip doran or harbinger and can help when ram gang meets finks. I find that doran itself is your only real problem doran as its always 2 for 1 whereas colossus is easily dealt with (blast, javelin or trade with figure). Spitebellows can do some double duty in other matchups though so i choose 3-2 split though maybe 5 cards total is too much dedication to doran.