LBC Mountains, Mountains, or Forests?

[GoblinChampion]

I have put together shells of three decks for block testing... all are a bit unconventional, but have shown tempo if nothing else for the time being.

List 1: Dirty Mountains
4 Manaforge Cinder
4 Emberstrike Duo
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
2 Demigod of Revenge
3 Shard Volley
4 Tarfire
4 Lash Out
4 Flame Javelin
4 Fists of the Demigod
23 Mountain


List 2: Clean Mountains
4 Mudbutton Clanger
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Mudbrawler Cohort
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
3 Sensation Gorger
4 Tarfire
4 Shard Volley
4 Lash Out
4 Flame Javelin
3 Spiteful Visions
22 Mountain

List 3: Forests
4 Nurturer Initiate
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Safehold Elite
4 Painter's Servant
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Boggart Ram-Gang
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Chameleon Colossus
4 Tower Above
3 Shield of the Oversoul
3 Earthbrawn
23 Forest

Pros and Cons
List 1:
+: Up-tempo deck that takes advantage of using first strike with wither
-: 2 for 1 is common in environment where all removal spells kill 3 toughness or less

List 2:
+: also high-tempo deck with good continuous flow of pressure
+: has combo for games that drag out too long (gorger/visions)
-: Firespout = no more team
+: capable of recovering from Firespout with Visions... maybe burning opponent out

List 3:
+: solid creatures at all points of the curve
+: persist saves from Firespout
+: good balance between creatures and modifiers
+: Sideboard options for Green are powerful
+: mini-combo with Painter's servant and Chameleon Colossus
-: possibility for 2 for 1 with sorcery-speed Tower Above and Shield of Oversoul


I personally like List 3 the most, but the problem I'm having is determining how to work the board. Here's what I have for it so far:

2 Chameleon Colossus
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Firespout
3 Gloomwidow's Feast (for Demigod particularly, but anyone with flying really)
4 Juvenile Gloomwidow (I know Raking Canopy is good, but I'm testing things remember?)
1 <card>

Other cards I like for the Green list:
Deus of Calamity
Oversoul of Dusk

[Shotgunlaw]

As to list 3.

I -really- don't like Shield of the Oversoul here. You are begging for the two for one, and what do you hope to accomplish with it? The indiestructabilty is nice, but we are in a set rife with -1/-1 counters and wither. Suboptimal here.

You state that you are concerned about the Demigod and still go for the lil spider. save your testing time and go with Raking Canopy. Look at your lists 1-2, what they play, and how if you are facing Demigod, you are also facing all that 3 power burn plus Firespout and look just how many options are out there in B/R if they need to spot remove your spider.

Speaking of removal, Oversoul of Dusk needs to be there. Short of Scarecrows, its removal proof in block. Hell, even most of the whither misses it. If you like Painter's Servant with CC, then you will have to love it with Oversoul.

Tattermunge maniac has its place, but I don't think its a blind four of in here. Most of your beef is of the big butt, higher casting cost variety. Tattermunge works best when he has additional aggressive threats following with him. Here, he just feels like blind, naked, but misplaced aggression. A better choice, given the rest of your deck, would be devoted druid. Wilt-leaf gives your late game druids extra options. Personally, I think it is a better fit.

Also, think about Treefolk harbinger. In mono green, he effectively thins your deck -and- stops tattermunge for the low, low cost of G. In block, I think this is going to be considered "tech".

While it has persist, Safehold elite is just a bear. You aren't running board sweepers yourself, so you can't resest a persist in your favor, and a late game bear is, well, worthless.

What to put here though, I am at a loss. I would like Wren's Run Vanquishers, but you are short on elf count. Wilt-leaf druid? Gives you a bear power but also acceleration? This is a head scratcher.

So, if I was to tweek your List 3, this is what I would do.

List 3: Forests
4 Nurturer Initiate <-- 4 Treefolk Harbinger (Forest fetch, and stops Tattermunge in its tracks.)
4 Tattermunge Maniac <-- 4 Devoted Druid
4 Safehold Elite <-- 4 Wren's Run Vanquisher? Wilt Leaf Druid?
4 Painter's Servant <--2 Painter's Servant (The effect is nice, but it is counter to your Wilt-Leaf's)
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Boggart Ram-Gang
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege <-- 3 Wilt Leaf-Liege (You are running mono-green, or mostly such)
2 Chameleon Colossus <-- 3 Oversoul of Dusk
4 Tower Above <-- 3 Tower Above (With Garruk, not as many needed)
3 Shield of the Oversoul <-- 3 Garruk (Additional finisher)
3 Earthbrawn <-- (up to 4 to fill space)

23 Forest

As to the board.

2 Chalemleon Collossus
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Firespout <-- (I would -really- want to find access to red mana here)
3 Gloomwidow's Feast (for Demigod particularly, but anyone with flying really) <-- (Interesting choice, but seems slow.)
4 Juvenile Gloomwidow (I know Raking Canopy is good, but I'm testing things remember?)

Really 4 Raking Canopy for the 4 Juveniles. You do that, all of a sudden one Firespout stops 4 Demigods, and that is what you need to be able to do.

Other cards to think about.

Heap doll - for lark, Demigod, and other graveyard shenanigans
Trip Noose - mini-Icy in mono green.
Scuttlemutt - gives you access to red mana -and- combos off Oversoul. Something to think about instead of Painter's Servant which does nothing but hurt your Lieges when working with your protection critters.

[RoninX]

Re: list 1. Emberstrike Duo is bad. I would strongly suggest Bloodmark Mentor (just filthy with both HHH guys) or Mudbrawler Cohort in its place.

Also, fists of the Demigod doesn't seem powerful enough to justify the 2 for 1 risk.... although the idea of wither and first strike does bring out the Timmy in me.

[GoblinChampion]

although the idea of wither and first strike does bring out the Timmy in me.

that's what happened to me too... pretty much the reason the list even exists

Shotgun:
I think these are all extremely progressive suggestions, so a few changes reflecting my mindset as well as yours:

3 Nurturer Initiate
4 Treefolk Harbinger
4 Painter's Servant (not sure how this is against the strategy of Liege, it adds colors to the permanents... could make all my green guys green/white)
4 Safehold Elite (for the curve, and with Liege, he seems to fit IMO)
4 Kichen Finks
3 Boggart Ram-Gang
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Chameleon Colossus (he would be the only treefolk left if I didn't want to tutor up a land with harbinger)
2 Oversoul of Dusk
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Tower Above

some thoughts:

agree with you on shield... just wanted to give it a run with safehold elites, finks, and the like to see if I could start any trouble. the only problem I had with it was the 2-1 trades, and it makes more sense to run without them.

garruk was just sitting there, and it seemed really cliche, so I looked past him. he's cliche for a reason i suppose.

Nurturer Initiate made the original list because I was running with a crude idea I had to play a cheap creature and just let him bash in with the pump spells and +1's from nurturer. I don't want to lose my 1 drops, so I need at least a 3-of alongside treefolk harbinger. could play Rhys I guess... any thoughts?

please explain your painter's servant argument. I'm not sure I see where you're coming from. It's a different effect from Shifting Sky if that's what you were thinking... it actually adds color instead of changing them entirely.


A lot of these changes pushed up the curve, which I'll have to look into. I know you said devoted druid is nice, but I've never been much for him. seems now I need to think about starting to like him.

also seems like raking canopy will be in the board. ho-hum :o

[Shotgunlaw]

Painter's Servant- I guess WotC must of snuck those words on there after the 20 other times I have read that card. You are right. I do think for its body and effect, I'm not sure it is a "4of".

My problem with Nurterer is that he is effectively a late game one drop. The requirement to pay a mana just costs too much and slows down your tempo too much. Yeah, Wooden Sphere on a body is cute, but it is still Wooden Sphere. You would almost be better with Elvish Eulogist if you wanted the life effect, and you don't want the Eulogist.

Rhys would be a good alternative as he plays well with Liege. I also think, depending on the meta, Heap Doll could see some play, especially in block, to combat 'lark shenanigans.

Your new list is not packing any removal, and I think you need to conisder something.

Mercy killing? Or what about the fact that as you are running 17 elves or "elflike products", you have room to support Gilt-Leaf Palace. M. Bosk is a forest and harbinger searchable...that would give you 8 black sources and allow Shirekmaw.

One final thought. Boggart ram-gang. I love the card as much as the next person, but is there a better three drop? This deck is not a pure aggression build like a Gruul that has all kinds of baord clearing to let things through. It feels more mid-range where you suriive the early rush and build to a winning eventuality.

Does Imperious Perfect make more sense? That would make 20 elves, 6 of which are lords and Painter's allowing the possibility of some double lordship. With Rhys as the 1 drop, thats 9 token generators.