On The Bubble - Exploration

[raybomb]

This thread is for the discussion of the article "On The Bubble - Exploration" by David Whitelaw. You can find it here - http://Magic.TCGplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=8038

Discuss!

[Risky]

I'm just curious--is this what we are getting in lieu of full set reviews now or will those follow later?

[Kwonger]

Your article stated that spiketail drakeling was a 2 drop, but in fact, it's a 3 drop. You probably mean spiketail hatchling.

[midi2304]

Your article stated that spiketail drakeling was a 2 drop, but in fact, it's a 3 drop. You probably mean spiketail hatchling.

Good shout - always getting that pair mixed up. Least you knew what I meant.

@Riki - I think this is the plan, for now anyway. Sorry if it wasn't up to scratch ;)

@ Everyone - Major, huge props to my editor, Austin Power who went through this and sorted out all my stupid mistakes at very short notice. He is a legend.

[RoninX]

Fun read, some commments:

In general it seems like you may have strayed a bit from your initial "mainly standard playable" thesis. Mass Calcify? Really?

Cursecatcher only counters instants and sorceries... that is unlikely to hold Zoo or White Weenie back a turn.

Also, I have to say I think you raise some interesting points about many cards, but you whiffed on Furystoke Giant. You do point out the cards that you are reaching on though (like the constructed unplayable river's grasp).

The Wilt-Leaf Liege image is currently the one for the Cavaliers.

Why does the color of your font change halfway through? Run out of black ink? ;)

It always takes balls to put out "top five" lists since you will always spark virulent disagreement in the forums. I appreciated the chutzpah.

[Scion_of_Stewy]

Great article. One question though. How does Woodfall Primus + Bosk Banneret equal a six casting cost guy? Am I missing something?

Has anyone else noticed that Shadowmoor seems to be lacking in apparent constructed playable cards? Notice I say apparent as doing this sort of thing before playing with the cards in constructed is always a liability (remember Tarmagoyf).

Does anyone else think Painters Servant deserves some love? He does make a cheap, colorless, two card infi combo with Grindstone, and he is probably breakable in other ways. Not that Oona needs help, but he makes every mana you spend on her ability into a token, even if you mill lands! He also combos with the aforementioned Drove of Elves cycle (either helping or removing).

Keep up the good work Dave.

[midi2304]

Fun read, some commments:

In general it seems like you may have strayed a bit from your initial "mainly standard playable" thesis. Mass Calcify? Really?

It's a top 5 dude and I couldn't see any other mono-white cards that have even the slightest hope of seeing play in a sixty card deck. Mass Calcify is awful. I guess Last Breath might, might get some play maybe? Like I said in the article, for a lot of the mono-coloured lists, I was reaching to fill out the five.

Cursecatcher only counters instants and sorceries... that is unlikely to hold Zoo or White Weenie back a turn.

Classic case of RTFC. Ach well, Cursecatcher was again, filer for the blue list.

Also, I have to say I think you raise some interesting points about many cards, but you whiffed on Furystoke Giant. You do point out the cards that you are reaching on though (like the constructed unplayable river's grasp).

In what respect? You think it won't see any play or you like it? I don't imagine Furystoke Giant will ever see any play beyond the kitchen table, but once again, a list-filler.

The Wilt-Leaf Liege image is currently the one for the Cavaliers.

Why does the color of your font change halfway through? Run out of black ink? ;)

I'm blaming Ray ;)

It always takes balls to put out "top five" lists since you will always spark virulent disagreement in the forums. I appreciated the chutzpah.

You very correctly point out that certain cards should never appear in any kind of top 5 lists. I think, looking back i wouldn't have happened had I not had effectively 11 top 5 lists - a lot of the mono-coloured lists were so tricky to fill out. I'm not sure how else I could have done it though - I didn't want to splice hybrid cards into 5 or 6 lists. Suggestions?

[midi2304]

Great article. One question though. How does Woodfall Primus + Bosk Banneret equal a six casting cost guy? Am I missing something?

Has anyone else noticed that Shadowmoor seems to be lacking in apparent constructed playable cards? Notice I say apparent as doing this sort of thing before playing with the cards in constructed is always a liability (remember Tarmagoyf).

Does anyone else think Painters Servant deserves some love? He does make a cheap, colorless, two card infi combo with Grindstone, and he is probably breakable in other ways. Not that Oona needs help, but he makes every mana you spend on her ability into a token, even if you mill lands! He also combos with the aforementioned Drove of Elves cycle (either helping or removing).

Keep up the good work Dave.

Woodfall Primus is a Treefolk dude, hence costs 2 less with Bosk Banneret in play.

[Scion_of_Stewy]

Woodfall Primus is a Treefolk dude, hence costs 2 less with Bosk Banneret in play.

I'm pretty sure the ruling on the bannerets is that if both creature types match it still only reduces the cost by 1. From the Gatherer notes for Bosk Banneret:
4/1/2008 A spell you play that's both creature types costs 1 less to play, not 2 less.
4/1/2008 The effect reduces the total cost of the spell, regardless of whether you chose to pay additional or alternative costs. For example, if you play a Rogue spell by paying its prowl cost, Frogtosser Banneret causes that spell to cost 1 less.

[midi2304]

I'm pretty sure the ruling on the bannerets is that if both creature types match it still only reduces the cost by 1. From the Gatherer notes for Bosk Banneret:
4/1/2008 A spell you play that's both creature types costs 1 less to play, not 2 less.
4/1/2008 The effect reduces the total cost of the spell, regardless of whether you chose to pay additional or alternative costs. For example, if you play a Rogue spell by paying its prowl cost, Frogtosser Banneret causes that spell to cost 1 less.

Spot on lad. Well pointed out. Ach, between Cursecatcher, the Bosk / Primus interaction and the Spiketail Hatchling / Drakeling mixup, we're doing great so far!

:\

[snowden]

snarth'd...

[Tarvalon]

I'll take the fall for the Banneret/Primus interaction. I specifically made a mental note to look up the Primus to ensure it really did cost 7 mana like I thought, and then flat out forgot. Totally blew it on Cursecatcher/Hatchling/Drakeling though, thanks for pointing those out.

[Scion_of_Stewy]

snarth'd...

Cut him some slack, he's Scottish!;) J/k Dave. The longer the article, the more opportunities for mistakes. I agree with RoninX that it takes balls to do these articles. And there was no argument, just a misunderstanding, that's all. It happens to everyone.:D

[justactcasual]

Lordpump still works under Godhead of Awe, as Godhead is applied layer 6b, whereas lordpump is applied later in layer 6d. (this is also why counters continue to effect, as they are layer 6c).

Mirrorweave copies the original card, ignoring other things that have been done to it.

In the nicest possible way.

Great article!

[RoninX]

a lot of the mono-coloured lists were so tricky to fill out. I'm not sure how else I could have done it though - I didn't want to splice hybrid cards into 5 or 6 lists. Suggestions?

Point taken, for instance white has only 27 cards in the set. Though I'll bet Niveous Wisps (twiddle + a cantrip!) see constructed play before Mass Calcify ;). If you really want take a flier Greater Auramancy and Mine Excavation could be crucial if "Shards" turn out to be the long speculated enchantment block.

As for red, the Bloodmark Mentor :1::r: goblin/warrior that gives all red creatures you control first strike is definitely a possibility.

On your comments for devoted druid, you didn't even mention that giant growths become dark rituals with him in play! :D Not sure that makes him constucted playable, but we'll see.

[midi2304]

Point taken, for instance white has only 27 cards in the set. Though I'll bet Niveous Wisps (twiddle + a cantrip!) see constructed play before Mass Calcify ;). If you really want take a flier Greater Auramancy and Mine Excavation could be crucial if "Shards" turn out to be the long speculated enchantment block.

As for red, the Bloodmark Mentor :1::r: goblin/warrior that gives all red creatures you control first strike is definitely a possibility.

On your comments for devoted druid, you didn't even mention that giant growths become dark rituals with him in play! :D Not sure that makes him constucted playable, but we'll see.

Not sure about the Wisps - haven't had any experience with it. They guy that gives all you creatures First Strike, very, very nearly made the list. The only reason Furystoke got in there before him was because I am a wee bit scared that there might be some way to break him. I seriously doubt it, but I bet you there are people out there testing it.

As for Devoted Druid, good shout on the Giant Growth thing but tbh, he is busted anyway even without pump. He will definitely see constructed play dude.

[biofeedback1]

It always takes balls to put out "top five" lists since you will always spark virulent disagreement in the forums. I appreciated the chutzpah.


I thought they where, like pumkins, or rugby parafanalia, or just just the fact that the cold wind lifts the skirt and hardends the "unit". Anyway, i liked it. I to am on the wire with many cards. I think that there will be many sleepers in the set. The good thing about it, is that the uncommon slot is quite impressive.

[ThePope]

"but whether she (Oona) will make any impact in Standard or Extended, I feel is doubtful."
I really think that you missed the mark with this one. Oona will make a huge splash. At first in the SB's of faeries and then she will make it into control decks and see some terrific play. She is better than meloku. How? You get to keep your lands in play.
Vexing Shusher, IMO, will not be good. Faeries will have answers to this guy. I am going to sell mine now and cash in.
I really feel that you made some pretty terrible choices as top cards. You hit some of the obvious ones, but all in all I think you got caught up in the excitement of the new set and became blind to good cards.

Sorry to pee on your parade.

[nomanpeopled]

I disagree that Hatchling's flying doesn't matter. With Cursecatcher, I'm spending one mana to let my opponent know I have a (limited) Force Spike, and it gets outclassed by the first opposing two-drop at the latest. It is, however a one-drop Merfolk (a tribe with two Lords) that postpones Wrath.

I don't see why Augur Adept would fare significantly better than Dimir Cutpurse. Unless Kithkin will use it out of desperation instead of splashing, which is quite plausible now.

Mirrorweave uses copiable values. Basically, what's printed on the card plus copy effects. The best Lord to use with it is Lord of Atlantis, imo, because Merfolk has the easiest time making its creature utterly unblockable; and since Lord of Atlantis is one of the old symmetrical Lords, opposing creatures will pump yours. Hell, turning all your tokens into Cloudthreshers in response to the trigger seems fine, too (or into Goyfs, or Godheads (oh god, no ... Judge!) or Cliques or Gougers or ...). Might well prove more devastating than Wrath.

I'm not sure about Ghastlord. His cost makes sure he comes too late against aggro, which will have emptied its hand, too late to dodge potential 4/4 blockers (Mistblind Clique, Godhead even), and at the very best gives your opponent ample time to draw into answers. Which is true for other creatures that are being played, but those tend to affect the board.

Sygg's problem (besides vulnerability) is that he assumes you are winning or at least racing (for at least three in a format with a chump-block engine no less), at which point removal or additional pressure seem better. Consider that you have to apply three damage a turn fo two turns to gain any kind of advantage, and probably three (since you played a 1/3 that can chump Maniacs and that's about it for combat). I'm reminded of Tamanoa.

Guttural Response is utterly unplayable in Eternal decks that produce red. Red has the better Rituals and the better Blasts.

Tattermunge Maniac's drawback is quite steep in any format with Tarmogoyf and Mogg Fanatic. It's not bad (at all), but again, Eternal has the arguably better Jungle Lion which is not used at all. Outside of mono-color, Skyshroud Elite, Grim Lavamancer, Fanatic, or Kird Apes will remain superior a lot of the time. Although it's true that we can now build RG Boros ;) It's like RW Boros, but with better creatures.

The only thing that makes me consider Wilt-Leaf Liege is that it's decent post-Wrath. All the other ones just don't shape up at all.

My big problem with Reflecting Pool has always been that it doesn't produce the mana you already have. I'm not gonna play Vivids just so it can. If you need multiples of the same, the Cairns cycle does it better. Any allied color combination hybrid doesn't care, although hybrids that are effectively mono-color because they're in an enemy color deck might (especially since they're missing fixing lands).

Scuttlemutt sucks. There, I said it :D

Lurebound Scarecrow dies to sweepers that don't kill it directly, and concentrated removal/counterspell/control magic/bounce action as well as creating awkward combat scenarios where you can't trade minor dorks to push damage through or stall. It will often be a miserable topdeck, especially on a bad draw. Not a bad card (I'd think of teaming it up with less vulnerable permanents than creatures), but certainly worse than Ashenmoor Gouger (mana requirements aside).



As for the format of the article, I like it much better than card-for-card reviews (although there seems to be much potential for funnies there at times), but personally I don't restrict myself by selecting top fives. Just go with what you think it Constructed playable.
Obviously people will always disagree with something (Niveous Wisps >>> Mass Calcify), but you won't be forced to leave out strong cards or come up with ways to justify inclusions (and waste time deciding which card sucks less).

[_outlaw]

Elves will still be incredibly powerful in the upcoming meta, with a few good white/green playables and all of the old goodies.

Unfortunately, catching Wilt-Leaf Liege "under the radar" can't happen quite like you put it considering how playsets are going for 30+$ on eBay.

Just a little nitpick- You said Tattermunge Maniac was a common, it's actually uncommon.

[midi2304]

"but whether she (Oona) will make any impact in Standard or Extended, I feel is doubtful."
I really think that you missed the mark with this one. Oona will make a huge splash. At first in the SB's of faeries and then she will make it into control decks and see some terrific play. She is better than meloku. How? You get to keep your lands in play.
Vexing Shusher, IMO, will not be good. Faeries will have answers to this guy. I am going to sell mine now and cash in.
I really feel that you made some pretty terrible choices as top cards. You hit some of the obvious ones, but all in all I think you got caught up in the excitement of the new set and became blind to good cards.

Sorry to pee on your parade.

I might be wrong about Oona. I don't see here making an impact but I am willing to admit I may be wrong.

On the other hand, you are way out with Vexing Shusher. Everyone has answers to the card but that doesn't make it a bad card. I think this will be a staple for years to come.

I am interested to know what good cards you think I missed. There were some distinctly average (or worse) cards I had to try and justify in my quest to stick to a rigid formula of 11 'top 5' lists. Whilst I feel I was reaching a lot of the time to make up the numbers, I don't feel I missed any of the top cards so perhaps you would explain 'you made some pretty terrible choices as top cards'? I'm not being aggressive or anything - I'm genuinely interested in what you feel I may have missed.

This is meant to be a learning exercise for everyone, including me, after all.

It is, however a one-drop Merfolk (a tribe with two Lords) that postpones Wrath.

Well this was what I was trying to say until it was quite correctly pointed out that it isn't a Force Spike because it doesn't stop creatures. Consdier this one a definite fail.

I don't see why Augur Adept would fare significantly better than Dimir Cutpurse. Unless Kithkin will use it out of desperation instead of splashing, which is quite plausible now.

/agree. Is that not what I said in the article basically?

Mirrorweave uses copiable values.

Thanks to you and everyone else for clarifying this :)

Guttural Response is utterly unplayable in Eternal decks that produce red. Red has the better Rituals and the better Blasts.

Eternal isn't my forte by any stretch of the imagination but a lot of very, very good players out there are touting this as a huge card in Vintage - Chapin for example. I can definitely see the applications, especially when you combine it with the likes of Simian Spirit Guide.

The only thing that makes me consider Wilt-Leaf Liege is that it's decent post-Wrath. All the other ones just don't shape up at all.

Yep, totally agree which is why it was the only Liege to make my list. Agree about Reflecting Pool too.

Scuttlemutt sucks. There, I said it :D

fail

;)

(Lurebound Scarecrow) Not a bad card but certainly worse than Ashenmoor Gouger

Again, agree generally. I just like the fact that this is one of those cards that will slot very nicely into almost any deck and fill out those last few slots without ever being disappointing.

As for the format of the article, I like it much better than card-for-card reviews (although there seems to be much potential for funnies there at times), but personally I don't restrict myself by selecting top fives. Just go with what you think it Constructed playable.
Obviously people will always disagree with something (Niveous Wisps >>> Mass Calcify), but you won't be forced to leave out strong cards or come up with ways to justify inclusions (and waste time deciding which card sucks less).

Definitely. This whole article was a wee bit of an experiment to see if it was possible to move away from a card-by-card analysis of the new set. I think in some ways it succeeded and in other ways not. I stuck far too rigidly to the 5 cards per list thing and that meant that some no very good cards were given credit where none is really due (Furystoke Giant anyone?). Next time, I will try and be less rigid and focus more on what is relevant.

How do people feel overall about the move away from a card-by-card set review?

Unfortunately, catching Wilt-Leaf Liege "under the radar" can't happen quite like you put it considering how playsets are going for 30+$ on eBay.

Bummer :(

They were a lot less than that when this was written over the weekend there. I guess people have cottened onto how good this guy is at the pre-release. Oh well, $30 for a playset isn't too bad.

[nomanpeopled]

Well this was what I was trying to say until it was quite correctly pointed out that it isn't a Force Spike because it doesn't stop creatures. Consdier this one a definite fail.
I meant "postpone your opponent's Wrath" but maybe that's not an issue. Not a Standard expert here.

very good players out there are touting this as a huge card in Vintage - Chapin for example. I can definitely see the applications, especially when you combine it with the likes of Simian Spirit Guide.
I admit I should have said Legacy instead of Eternal because that's what I know best (Legacy has less unconditional mana acceleration so Gifts is a fringe card and it's thus enough to produce R at sorcery speed most of the time because you're using it disrupt disruption, not game-plans).
You mean Elvish Spirit Guide probably, since Simian can enable Blasts just as easily, but it's a good point.

fail

;)
You win :D

@ format of the article: card by card analysis has its strong points. Like pointing out possible niche uses and being forcing the author at least to think about every single card.
But it's a pain to spread a set review over several days just because it's also a pain to read in one go - and missing cards along the way because this is like the hundredth Limited filler (wait a minute, it's actually useful as a sideboard card against/comboes really well with/etc).
Plus, one can really put more emphasis on the good or at least interesting cards. (I mean, yeah, Niveous Wisps is probably better than some of the inclusions a top-five approach necessitates, but then again it's pretty obvious what it does (tap an attacker) and what it could go into (control with stuff to draw into), so it's not like I really missed it. Swans have some big ifs and buts attached but they should definitely be in there over Wisps.)
Personally, if i can have one or the other, I'll take in-depth. Disputed cards can still be discussed in the comments.


Thanks for the lengthy response, by the way.

[midi2304]

Thanks for the lengthy response, by the way.

Well I appreciated the constructive criticism and thought processes.

Is this turning into a JFR-style manlove session?

;)

[nomanpeopled]

Well I appreciated the constructive criticism and thought processes.

Is this turning into a JFR-style manlove session?

;)
Only if you want to :heart:
Seriously though, how do you know I'm not a woman? :cool:
Joking aside, what the hell's a JFR? :confused:


And now for something completely different.


What do you (or anybody) think of Dramatic Entrance? Seems to me like a card worthy of consideration since it's both a combat trick and mana acceleration. It even makes playing against counters easier (they tap out at your eot, you flash in Cloudthresher or some such). (It's ironic that having Through the Breach's drawback would make this card so much better in Extended and Legacy alike.)

What are your (or anybody's) thoughts on Giantbaiting? It seems like it could possibly see use in hyper-aggresive decks but it gets worse the better your two-drop is (good with War Marshal, bad with Goyf (unless it's small ... hmm ...), bad with Marauders), bad against spot removal. I like the fact that you can tap your not-so-stellar-anymore one-drops, though, and maybe save you rMunge Maniac for a turn. Eight points worth of damage for three mana and two tapped creatures doesn't seem too shabby (even four damage for three may be acceptable at times), but those uses are fairly limited to turn three since your deck cut back on staying power and Giantbaiting is way more likely to whiff for some reason or other later. I guess it's just unlikely to put you in the position to race on its own.

[midi2304]

Only if you want to :heart:
Seriously though, how do you know I'm not a woman? :cool:
Joking aside, what the hell's a JFR? :confused:


And now for something completely different.


What do you (or anybody) think of Dramatic Entrance? Seems to me like a card worthy of consideration since it's both a combat trick and mana acceleration. It even makes playing against counters easier (they tap out at your eot, you flash in Cloudthresher or some such). (It's ironic that having Through the Breach's drawback would make this card so much better in Extended and Legacy alike.)

What are your (or anybody's) thoughts on Giantbaiting? It seems like it could possibly see use in hyper-aggresive decks but it gets worse the better your two-drop is (good with War Marshal, bad with Goyf (unless it's small ... hmm ...), bad with Marauders), bad against spot removal. I like the fact that you can tap your not-so-stellar-anymore one-drops, though, and maybe save you rMunge Maniac for a turn. Eight points worth of damage for three mana and two tapped creatures doesn't seem too shabby (even four damage for three may be acceptable at times), but those uses are fairly limited to turn three since your deck cut back on staying power and Giantbaiting is way more likely to whiff for some reason or other later. I guess it's just unlikely to put you in the position to race on its own.

John Friggin Rizzo of course. For my money, the most enjoyable Magic writer out there by a mile.

Dramatic Entrance... I thought about the card a lot and I thought, what would I want to flash out in green? Spectral Force? Cloudthresher? Do you see where my problems lie with the card? I just can't see it being worth space in a deck.

Giantbaiting is a bit too situational for my liking. It's pretty awful without the Conspire which makes it the worst top deck in a late game, post-Wrath ever. Of course, I am rubbish at constructed so go figure ;)

[RoninX]

Dramatic Entrance... I thought about the card a lot and I thought, what would I want to flash out in green? Spectral Force? Cloudthresher? Do you see where my problems lie with the card? I just can't see it being worth space in a deck.

Its tough. The only thing worth flashing out at the moment is the Primus. But using it as a combat trick isn't totally abysmal... maybe not standard worthy - but possibly playable in block.


Giantbaiting is a bit too situational for my liking. It's pretty awful without the Conspire which makes it the worst top deck in a late game, post-Wrath ever. Of course, I am rubbish at constructed so go figure ;)

Come on, it may not be good, but the worst top deck ever! 4 damage for 3 post wrath isn't terrible Turn 1 Maniac, Turn 2 Marshall, Turn 3 Conspired Giant Baiting is kind of intriguing, no?

[midi2304]

Come on, it may not be good, but the worst top deck ever! 4 damage for 3 post wrath isn't terrible Turn 1 Maniac, Turn 2 Marshall, Turn 3 Conspired Giant Baiting is kind of intriguing, no?

Yeah you are right I guess it's not that completely awful post Wrath. But good enough to see play? Block at the outside and even then I'm not holding my breath.

[RoninX]

Yeah you are right I guess it's not that completely awful post Wrath. But good enough to see play? Block at the outside and even then I'm not holding my breath.

Fair enough. I'm just sayin, hyperbole can be dangerous.