WotC Preview - Tattermung Maniac

[RoninX]

Courtesy of Flores

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/swimming/mf193_jJO9VASVel.jpg

:rg:
goblin warrior
attacks each turn if able
2/1

Uncommon! Thank all the gods this isn't rare.

Yes. Really, indeed. Discuss.

[justactcasual]

fun times! hybrid = finally not buying duals for the multicolour aggro deck. waha!

also chipping in on the non-rare hallelujahs.

[tony28]

Best uncommon of the set there I said it.

[Destroyer51]

if this was a rare i'd quit magic.

[jodokast34]

Yeah, I admit the second thing I looked for was the rarity to make sure Wizards wasn't just writing themselves a huge check. I think it's incredibly obvious that this thing will see play in many formats--probably not vintage or Legacy, but I'd say Extended, Constructed and Block will all love this guy.

I agree that this is better than Jackal Pup. It's not like there are many pro-green creatures out there that will use the hybrid color against it, and attacking every turn is what you wanted to do anyway. Even if they block with something bigger, you might be able to finish their big creature with burn. Hitting a couple times and then trading with a fattie? Sounds good.

[RoninX]

The maniac and fanatic: together again :D

[Superman13]

hey its like jackal pup, well almost its still amazingly good, r/g aggro looks better and better

[Drafterdot56]

Wow. This is a really great card. I think we're going to be looking at a *lot* of grull decks come shadowmoor.

So, how much will you pay for an uncommon?

[Tarvalon]

So, how much will you pay for an uncommon?

You won't have to. Even in the hayday of Fact or Fiction it wasn't hard to pick up 4 copies just from drafts/sealed/opening packs. Uncommons will (thankfully) never get out of control price-wise simply because the supply is plentiful enough.

While we're on the subject of "thank god he's not a rare", I have a quick question for everyone. Would you rather see every rare in a set be a legitimately good rare (that you'll end up having to shell out $$ for), or do you prefer having some crap rares to balance everything out? The easy answer is "give me all great cards!", but I'm not so sure I'd actually prefer it that way. When there aren't too many chase rares in a set, you don't have to put up the big bucks to get them all. Of course, if every rare was a chase rare, you'd start making money off of buying boxes, but then again Wizards would probably just hike up the price of the boxes if that were the case. Anyways, I'm rambling, just curious what you all think.

[Theobill]

I think they should make exciting effects rare and basic, but undercosted less interesting effects common or uncommon, for instance bitterblossem should be rare but just an undercosted 3/3 for 2 should be common or uncommon, wizards actually does quite a good job of this really and they could be a lot worse about it.

Also this card looks awesome I really hope there will be some RG or possible even RGB aggro in the format.

[Drafterdot56]

RDW wins is looking realy good in SHM Standard. Countryside Crusher, Fulminator Mage, Tarrermung Maniac, shard volley, etc.

[javier_2007_2009]

I think it's about even with Jackal Pup... they both have drawbacks... sure you can burn a "fattie" but you still lose a guy... The pup can live when you don't have that burn spell for the "fattie"... They are even in my eyes. I honestly don't like either... I'd much rather play red/black so I can drop Fanatic and Knucklebone Witch.

Even Elvish Berserker and Magus of the Scroll are better then this guy.
I doubt r/g weenie will be better then ramp or b/r goblins.

[rincewind32]

A 2/1 for 1 mana is always solid, but what deck will it go in?

[Drafterdot56]

A 2/1 for 1 mana is always solid, but what deck will it go in?

Seriously? Every aggro deck for seven years. Actualy longer if goblins continues to be good in the eternal formats.

[javier_2007_2009]

Seriously? Every aggro deck for seven years. Actualy longer if goblins continues to be good in the eternal formats.
Correction "Every aggro deck before this year" That guy isn't as good as you guys are making him seem. Stalwart is 15 times better then this guy... If you want weenie go with Kithkin who has already had 2 amazing cards spoiled and an okay card. I think white will be better next set because of the use of Oblivion Ring, Austere Command, and Crib Swap.

[Harvester78]

Correction "Every aggro deck before this year" That guy isn't as good as you guys are making him seem. Stalwart is 15 times better then this guy... If you want weenie go with Kithkin who has already had 2 amazing cards spoiled and an okay card. I think white will be better next set because of the use of Oblivion Ring, Austere Command, and Crib Swap.

Dude, i don't think you get it...
The thing that makes RDW so good is that, unlike white,
it has direct damage... lots of it. Bring your opponent to
12 - life and finish of with burn.

What will your Kithkin friends do after the WoG or Damnation?
Or a Moath for that part. Kithkin have to win with creatures,
Red doesn't which gives it more spread thus resilliance.

Anyway, you'll see when playing you kithkin against RDW...

The card is a house. period.

[sir-lag-alot]

BURN... i completely agree, and also though, the point about red finishing off with burn, makes it so much better for red to have a creature like this because, well, it's red. This card, like the previous jackle pup (this is better imo, because the drawback is completely redundant, YOU WANT TO ATTACK WITH IT), makes it that much easier for red to win.

Awesome card, love it, i am making a RDW, and it will own kithkin. Then again, what doesn't own kithkin? i mean really...

[javier_2007_2009]

Dude, i don't think you get it...
The thing that makes RDW so good is that, unlike white,
it has direct damage... lots of it. Bring your opponent to
12 - life and finish of with burn.

What will your Kithkin friends do after the WoG or Damnation?
Or a Moath for that part. Kithkin have to win with creatures,
Red doesn't which gives it more spread thus resilliance.

Anyway, you'll see when playing you kithkin against RDW...

The card is a house. period.
You said it yourself... red doesn't need to win with creatures. I'd much rather tarfire then cast this guy and watch him get killed. He isn't good.

I didn't say red was bad I said it's not good with weenies. The only creature burn needs is Keldon Marauders and Mogg Fanatic.

I don't play kithkin I just think it's the best weenie.


edit: Also Countryside Crusher ;]

[tony28]

Uncommons will (thankfully) never get out of control price-wise simply because the supply is plentiful enough.

While we're on the subject of "thank god he's not a rare", I have a quick question for everyone. Would you rather see every rare in a set be a legitimately good rare (that you'll end up having to shell out $$ for), or do you prefer having some crap rares to balance everything out?

I'd rather every rare be a good rare or at least vanilla staple cards to be uncommon because if I were to open a booster or draft, I know that I'm at least getting some good cards. I don't mind all the bizarre left-field rares but printing 'ordinary' staple cards like Hound of Konda as a rare is blatant pocket robbery (yes I know he's a monster but you get what I mean) and I can feel for the guy who's just opened his 2nd or third Vizzerdix.

I think perhaps that's what Ronin was getting at. It's annoying having to shell out $5 for a 1cc 2/1 because while yes, it's stats are impressive, shelling out money for a pretty unspectacular card (relative to things like WoG or Profane Command) that you need for your deck to work is frustrating.

[Drafterdot56]

"Insanity is trying to do the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
- Albert Einstein

White weenie looks good at the start of every season. It almost never is.

[rincewind32]

Seriously? Every aggro deck for seven years. Actualy longer if goblins continues to be good in the eternal formats.
But what T2 deck will it go in now? what will you take out? It wont go into elves and what would you take out of mana ramp?

[Goomagic]

to me this card seems stable in rdw i mean now we up the creature count up to 12 in rdw murader(if i even spelled it right ) , mogg , and now this guy

ohh and country side crusher to me this card is over rated except for in draft everytime me or my freinds play him he is bad in rdw that is just us though so we took him out of the deck

[Drafterdot56]

But what T2 deck will it go in now? what will you take out? It wont go into elves and what would you take out of mana ramp?

This isn't the only card coming into standard. From what we've seen, I predict that there will be a powerful :rg: weenie/burn deck that will play similarly to last year's grull beats decks.

[RoninX]

I'd rather every rare be a good rare or at least vanilla staple cards to be uncommon because if I were to open a booster or draft, I know that I'm at least getting some good cards. I don't mind all the bizarre left-field rares but printing 'ordinary' staple cards like Hound of Konda as a rare is blatant pocket robbery (yes I know he's a monster but you get what I mean) and I can feel for the guy who's just opened his 2nd or third Vizzerdix.

I think perhaps that's what Ronin was getting at. It's annoying having to shell out $5 for a 1cc 2/1 because while yes, it's stats are impressive, shelling out money for a pretty unspectacular card (relative to things like WoG or Profane Command) that you need for your deck to work is frustrating.

I think every rare should be interesting - they don't all have to be great. In fact lots of great rares and mediocre other cards make constructed a major pain by jacking card prices. Cards like this and thoughtseize should be uncommon (see duress.) Savannah Lions at rares was/is still a hanger on from magics earliest days when you got better creatures at rare just because they were rare. I'm not sure that I have a huge problem with the Hound at rare, legends are almost always rare. But vizzerdix is another good example, there is nothing remotely interesting about Vizzerdix so it never should have been printed at rare.

[rincewind32]

This isn't the only card coming into standard. From what we've seen, I predict that there will be a powerful :rg: weenie/burn deck that will play similarly to last year's grull beats decks.
It goes into RDW for sure, but does it go into B/R goblins? You might be right about :rg: aggro/burn, I have seen some real aggressive hybrid creature cards with Red and/or Green in the cost.

[RoninX]

This isn't the only card coming into standard. From what we've seen, I predict that there will be a powerful :rg: weenie/burn deck that will play similarly to last year's grull beats decks.

We can only hope... ;) its nice to almost have Char (see the red beseech the queen) back as well. That will be huge.

[rincewind32]

We can only hope... ;) its nice to almost have Char (see the red beseech the queen) back as well. That will be huge.
What is this?

[javier_2007_2009]

I'd pay 5$ for a Imperious perfect if she were a rare. ;]

[RoninX]

What is this?

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1013205

The same original source as been confirmed right several times so far this spoiler season.

[bokwinkle]

We may see a Warrior Deck in T2 as well - so it may be played there. At the very least you may see him played with 'Goyf, Garruk, Call, Crusher, and a zillion burn spells for a very solid "Gruul" type deck. It may even make it's way into the Elemental decks that are using the 2/1 elemental for R - leaving it with an 8-pack of 1-caster 2/1's....look out fae.

Personally, I'd rather have seen this card (or something similar) printed in a white hybrid. White weenie is the only white identity left. I can no longer singularly identify any deck type to white - especially since damnation and naturalize. White no longer has anything that it can do better than any other color.

I fail to see the need for this card in the current environment...for red or green.

[Destroyer51]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1013205

The same original source as been confirmed right several times so far this spoiler season.

yay char without the drawback!!!
is it uncommon? i think the cycle is so i don't see why this wouldn't be.

[RoninX]

yay char without the drawback!!!
is it uncommon? i think the cycle is so i don't see why this wouldn't be.

Yeah, the whole cycle is uncommon. Note that this card (not 100% confirmed yet) isn't "quite" Char since it is :r::r::r: (or :2::r::r: etc.) and a sorcery. But I'm still thrilled.

[Falkor]

I don't know about any of you, but is there any reason to run White in any deck after this card is printed?

Any?

You have quicker beats, more removal, and better creatures in Red and Green than White now. It's ridiculous.

Now, I can see why Zvi quit Wizards, how does Control compete against Jackal Pup, Mogg Fanatic, cheap, efficient burn cards, and R/G Counters?

Wow. Yes, really. Wow.

Stock up on the RG dual land at the prerelease, they are going to be BIG money.

[maxq2080]

I'm sorry but I really don't think this guy is any good.

In Extended there decks now win so fast and have ways of deal with guy he won't stay long and your "burn" is not a factor in Extended.

This guy might be ok in standard but with all of the early effect creatures and other great removal in the format right now I don't think he will be that good.

And lastly this guy is absolutely horrible in Limited. Usually you have very little removal and you want to save what you have for something other than a stupid dork that is going to block.

Yes a 2/1 for 1 is awesome and I loved Savannah Lions and Jackal Pup back in the day but the problem with this guy is his draw back. With the the Lions and the pup you could hold back on the attack until you could clear a path but with this guy you MUST attack and than ain't good.

[Drafterdot56]

I'm sorry but I really don't think this guy is any good.

Don't be sorry. Sorry is a board game.


In Extended there decks now win so fast


They win fast because they run fast cards like this. And there are fast answers to combo decks, if that's what you meant.


and have ways of deal with guy he won't stay long

This has never been a good reason not to play a powerful creature. Most of the removal in extended doesn't care about toughness. Terminate, Smother etc.

and your "burn" is not a factor in Extended.

Yes it is. Tribal Flames anyone? Lightning Helix? Last I checked, RDW was winning PTQs with ease.


This guy might be ok in standard but with all of the early effect creatures
and other great removal in the format right now I don't think he will be that good.

Again, spot removal isn't the reason to skip out on a creature.


And lastly this guy is absolutely horrible in Limited. Usually you have very little removal and you want to save what you have for something other than a stupid dork that is going to block.

He is much better when you're going first. But still not great.


Yes a 2/1 for 1 is awesome and I loved Savannah Lions and Jackal Pup back in the day but the problem with this guy is his draw back. With the the Lions and the pup you could hold back on the attack until you could clear a path but with this guy you MUST attack and than ain't good.

Blocking with Jackal Pup is fairly pointless. Doesn't save you life, doesn't have any advantages over attacking half the time. The only thing better with Jackal Pup is that you can... hold it back so you can swing after he does? How often does that happen in constructed?

I don't know about any of you, but is there any reason to run White in any deck after this card is printed?

Revilark.

[RoninX]

I'm sorry but I really don't think this guy is any good.

In Extended there decks now win so fast and have ways of deal with guy he won't stay long and your "burn" is not a factor in Extended.

You must be thinking of legacy, "red" decks (Gaea's Might Get There, RGb Ape-Bob-Goyf decks) and burn decks were a definite player, though note a warping force, in this past extended season.


And lastly this guy is absolutely horrible in Limited. Usually you have very little removal and you want to save what you have for something other than a stupid dork that is going to block.

Quite often in limited the first drop a player makes is a three drop, slightly less often they have a 2/x. This guy is a perfectly reasonable limited man - not outstanding but good if you are able to draft a reasonably aggressive deck. If you opponents first drop is a 3 drop then he probably does 4 damage and then trades (or dies) that is fine for a one mana investment. Even doing two damage and trading is probably ok. If you top deck him late you'll have to plan when to use him, but his disavantage isn't impossible to work with.

[enigmasprelude]

It's a WARRIOR!

G/B warriors, R/G warriors, R/G/B warriors......in Standard or even block will love this guy.

Turn 1 forest, llanowar elf.
Turn 2 swamp, imperious perfect.
Turn 3 forest, obsidian battle-axe, and this guy.....makes for 5/3 attacker turn 3....

Pretty fast clock along with the already overwhelming elf warrior stuff.....could be nice! Making a r/g/b deck would be good for elves, black removal and red burn to the face to end the game!

[justactcasual]

At one mana, he is guaranteed to trade with something that cost equal, or probably more, than he did. Connecting with his swings is just gravy.
If he draws fire, nifty. Now your bigger creatures live longer.
If he trades, great. Now there's one less blocker you didn't have to spend burn on.
Even if he runs into a wall, he helps your burn clear it for your other creatures.
And when he dies he becomes more powerful than you could possibly imagine (by pumping your goyf).

To answer the other question: I buy my cards almost entirely as singles, and am on a pretty small budget, so if all the power staples were at uncommon that would be just dandy for me. If all the rares were crazy Johnny cards that only a few decks played, or vanilla that nobody did, that would be grrrrrrrrrreat.

[RoninX]

If all the rares were crazy Johnny cards that only a few decks played, or vanilla that nobody did, that would be grrrrrrrrrreat.

But then fewer packs would be sold, so few singles would be available so the prices of all uncommons would rise. ;)

[namegoeshere]

Jackal pup. Fireblast. Looks like Sligh is back.

[mtglordtom24]

WARRIORS. This guy slides right in, gets boarded out when you will be on the draw and makes a deck that is already one of the best better.

[enigmasprelude]

WARRIORS. This guy slides right in, gets boarded out when you will be on the draw and makes a deck that is already one of the best better.


HELLO?!! I said that already!!!!!

[RoninX]

HELLO?!! I said that already!!!!!

Send up the Bat Signal. Quick I'll go to the MTG Salvation boards and you go to the WotC boards and together we can make sure that nobody else infringes on the fact that you were the only one to notice that he is a warrior.

No one else must be allowed to pretend that this idea occurred to them spontaneously!

[enigmasprelude]

Don't Be A Smart @$$!

[Rba]

Quit your bickering children, move on. Let's get back to the discussion. That being how stupid this card is.


Oh and its an uncommon, i see prices topping out around 3 bucks per for this imho. Possibly 5.

[RoninX]

@ enigmasprelude: come on, you know your post deserved that.

@ Rba: It will be $5 initially - at least online (like Treetop and Mogg fanatic) then drop down to a $1 uncommon, or less. Many more people draft the block sets then draft the core sets so (again, online) there should be more in circulation faster.

[maxq2080]

Don't Be A Smart @$$!

Half the fun of these forums is being a smartass and the other half is arguing.

Ronin X:

I will concede the point about extended as I did not follow it this year. But you are wrong on standard and on limited.

In Standard almost every aggro deck has a 1 or 2 drop that can stop this guy from doing any damage. I will concede that if control goes second this guy will get in for some damage but if control goes first they have many a 2 drop that can stop this guy.

Now for where I really shine Limited: Have you not been following LLL or LLM. I don't know about where you play but everyone I have ever played in the LLL or LLM has had either a 1 or 2 drop and I'm talking about actual playable cards. I am betting that Shadowmoor will be the same. Good early drops backed up but decent removal and huge bombs in the late game.

I think the Maniac will be one of those creatures half the people say is good and the other half say is bad and we we will have to wait and see how things play out and then one half will get to tell the other half a big I told you so.

[justactcasual]

a one or two drop that will itself kamikaze to stop the maniac. :rolleyes:
when was a :rg: proactive Spell Snare with possible damage a bad thing? ;)
where are these "more playable" one drops that aren't going to die to exactly the same things? :confused:
no one is saying that this wins games on its own. but it definitely helps. :)

[enigmasprelude]

My point in saying that I had just said that was to make that guy and others how visit this thread go back and read what I typed in which was in much more detail than IT GOES WITH WARRIORS.....(that was kinda of a duh after the fact I had just mentioned it, and that I was the first to mention it on the thread and make a VALID point about it).

[Oraymw]

Obviously this is insanely good. Just the kind of card that RG Warriors needed to become Tier 1 viable. There are already 48 comments on this card, and flores just posted it. That shows you how good it is. Phenomenal.

[Magidex]

Let's look at some very, very basic principles to help all of you newbles or otherwise uninformed gamers to understand just exactly why this particular Goblin is awesomeness on a bagel.

First of all, he costs a single R.
Secondly, he has 2 power.

If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about how to beat face in 500 attacks or less, then please continue on.

Imagine Shock. Shock is slightly less efficient than its predecessor, Lightning Bolt. But we all know that. For a single R, Shock can kill a pesky creature. It's almost like damage prevention, if you would. Or you can aim it at the player's face. No matter what, you paid 1 mana, and you got two damage.

So now imagine hitting someone with the same Shock over and over again, until they get tired of taking the burn and throw a blocker in its way. Now we're getting at the real reason why this guy is so good.

Let's say you only hit twice. And let's also say that you took out a creature. So your one creature has shelled out a total of six damage. And you paid a single R. Is there a spell in the game that costs that much and deals 4 to a player and 2 to a creature? I think not. And that's assuming you stopped playing things after you dropped this guy.

And you know what? He's going to die. He's going to eat burn, or be blocked, or something. If you expect all your creatures to survive until the end of the game, every game, then you're playing the wrong game. Creatures die. People Withered Wretch them from the game. It happens.

Suck it up, drop another one, and don't let Borborygmos' memory die.

[RoninX]

In Standard almost every aggro deck has a 1 or 2 drop that can stop this guy from doing any damage. I will concede that if control goes second this guy will get in for some damage but if control goes first they have many a 2 drop that can stop this guy.

So should aggro decks not play any one or two drops because they might die to other one or two drops? Every card needs a home to "succeed" but this fills an important gap in the the arsenal of red and green (without mandating that you play elementals).


Now for where I really shine Limited: Have you not been following LLL or LLM. I don't know about where you play but everyone I have ever played in the LLL or LLM has had either a 1 or 2 drop and I'm talking about actual playable cards. I am betting that Shadowmoor will be the same. Good early drops backed up but decent removal and huge bombs in the late game.


I play mainly online. Both 8-4 and 4-3-2-2s. LLL saw very few quality one drops. Harrier and Stalwart are the only ones I can think of. There certainly are a couple more in circulation in LLM but not many. LLL was also a little sort on two drops, but as you say Morningtide filled this gap admirably. But people still play mainly 3+ drops in most decks. This is because in LLM you still get the most out of exploiting the tribal synergies found largely on the 3 and 4 cc lines (outside of the MOR lords).

None of this matters since we haven't seen enough of shadowmoor to really determine what its limited environment will look like, but so far it IS still looking very aggressive and aggressively costed. That might mean a 2/1 for 1 is obsoletely even more quickly... but we just don't know yet.

[maxq2080]

Ok I have said this before but seeing as none of you seem to have read what I wrote I will write it again.......

Yes a 2/1 for G or R is awesome that is not where my beef is......

My beef is that it forces you to attack every turn and that means that he will die sooner rather than later. Yes I realize my creatures are going to die but I don't like to just kill them willy nilly with no return. Also in a burn deck I don't want to waste my burn on a 1/1 chump block just to keep this guy alive cause if I do I will run out of ammo quickly. Hint RED HAS NO DRAW ABILITY. That means when you run out of a hand you are in top deck mode and that is not good when your dude dies so easily.

Does everyone understand my point now?

[RoninX]

My beef is that it forces you to attack every turn and that means that he will die sooner rather than later. Yes I realize my creatures are going to die but I don't like to just kill them willy nilly with no return. Also in a burn deck I don't want to waste my burn on a 1/1 chump block just to keep this guy alive cause if I do I will run out of ammo quickly. Hint RED HAS NO DRAW ABILITY. That means when you run out of a hand you are in top deck mode and that is not good when your dude dies so easily.

Does everyone understand my point now?

Sure. Attacking every turn IS a disadvantage. Arguably a substantially worse disadvantage than Jackal Pup's - and clearly worse than wild dogs. This is a valid point, but the advantages outweigh the disadvantages because there simply aren't that many playable one drops in standard or block at the moment, and your opponent won't always have a one (or two) drop.

This man doesn't go in every red or green deck. It just fills a hole in the potential arsenal for those colors... I'll stop since I'm sure that I'm repeating myself at this point.

[maxq2080]

So should aggro decks not play any one or two drops because they might die to other one or two drops? Every card needs a home to "succeed" but this fills an important gap in the the arsenal of red and green (without mandating that you play elementals).

See this is what I'm saying nobody listens to what I'm saying.....

I'm not saying that a 2/1 for 1 is bad I'm saying the having to attack every turn is bad and when you combine the two you don't get a awesome, over the top all powerful creature you get a just about average one drop.

I mean Mogg Fanatic can attack turn 2 get through for 1 and and then sack for 1 and do just as much damage as this guy will do.

[Chainer9999]

See this is what I'm saying nobody listens to what I'm saying.....

I'm not saying that a 2/1 for 1 is bad I'm saying the having to attack every turn is bad and when you combine the two you don't get a awesome, over the top all powerful creature you get a just about average one drop.

I mean Mogg Fanatic can attack turn 2 get through for 1 and and then sack for 1 and do just as much damage as this guy will do.


Yes, but that requires saccing a very versatile Fanatic to get the same effect as one attack from the Tattermung. Thus, you are neutered from any further attacks unless you drop another Fanatic.

If you're saying that your one-drop needs to stay on the board for a ridiculously long time to be good, then you are deluding yourself. Let's take jackal pup. where did it see play? Aggressive red decks, notably RDW. They are not relying on the Jackal Pup staying on the board for a ridiculously long time to deal oodles of damage. All they need is 4 points (2 attacks), and that's more than enough for one card and one mana, as someone was wise enough to point out.

Oh, and are you under the assumption that this will replace Fanatic? If so, then you haven't seen the RDW decks. They ran both Pup and Fanatic. Same deal. This and Fanatic gives an aggressive red deck 8 quality one-drops, not to mention Magus of the Scroll.

It's a great card for aggressive decks. That's all that needs to be said.

[Destroyer51]

just b/c you have to attack, doesn't mean your opponent is going to block. imagine playing against faeries or lark. what do they do? not a whole lot until turn 3, at which point you have done at least 4 damage. and right there it has been more productive than a shock.
what about kithkin and elves? maybe they drop a vanquisher or k o meadowgrain and you are sad. but they will probably play something that wants to live: wizened cenn, imperious perfect, wolf-skull shaman, etc etc.
all of the reasons that he must attack are assuming the opponent is blocking. against an aggro deck, they won't always be blocking, and against midrange or control they might not have an answer right away.
shock does 2 damage, rift bolt does 3. if this hits the opponent once, then it's a shock. and anything on top of that is gravy. sometimes you will lose it and not gain any "gravy." but turkey is still good without gravy.

[Destroyer51]

My point in saying that I had just said that was to make that guy and others how visit this thread go back and read what I typed in which was in much more detail than IT GOES WITH WARRIORS.....(that was kinda of a duh after the fact I had just mentioned it, and that I was the first to mention it on the thread and make a VALID point about it).

It's a Warrior

Just as Tattermunge Maniac is a Goblin from the red side, it is a Warrior from the green. This is a creature that could be at home with an Obsidian Battle-Axe in hand, setting the opponent up starting turn two for a game ending Profane Command rather than a flurry of red cards.

Flores beat you to it lol :P

[TROMp]

there is no question that this guy will find a home really quickly in standard however,
i think it has become pretty clear that faerie's or any other black x deck will start running a certain card in the board or main to defend against this guy..
.
.
.
PEPPERSMOKE could just be a beating...

[maxq2080]

Ok I'm going to try this one more time.................

I'm not saying that a 1 or 2 drop has to go the distance.
I'm not saying that a 2/1 for 1 is bad, in fact it's really good.
I'm not saying that hitting for 2 or 4 damage is bad.


What I'm saying is this............

Most of you are trying to make this guy out to be the second coming Tarmogoyf (you know a very efficent creature that everyone wants to play)

He is not the second coming he is a 2/1 with a really bad drawback to him. Will he be played....yes. Will he do some damage absolutely. But only in some games in most games he might get 2 damage in which basically equates to getting to play 8 shocks in your red decks and getting to play 4 shocks in your red decks.

All I'm trying to say is that he is not as good as you all are trying to make him out to be. I'm not trying to convince you all that he unplayable but in most of your matches you will probably be wishing that you had played something else in his slot.

Does any of this make since?

[maxq2080]

there is no question that this guy will find a home really quickly in standard however,
i think it has become pretty clear that faerie's or any other black x deck will start running a certain card in the board or main to defend against this guy..
.
.
.
PEPPERSMOKE could just be a beating...

TROMp while I love what you are thinking I think that they are more likely to run Deathmark.

While Peppersmoke would be ok more than likely they won't have a faerie in play when the would use it so the draw card is not usually applicable.

[justactcasual]

Most of you are trying to make this guy out to be the second coming Tarmogoyf (you know a very efficent creature that everyone wants to play)

He is not the second coming he is a 2/1 with a really bad drawback to him. Will he be played....yes. Will he do some damage absolutely. But only in some games in most games he might get 2 damage in which basically equates to getting to play 8 shocks in your red decks and getting to play 4 shocks in your red decks.

All I'm trying to say is that he is not as good as you all are trying to make him out to be. I'm not trying to convince you all that he unplayable but in most of your matches you will probably be wishing that you had played something else in his slot.

Nobody's trying to say he's Goyf. But he does have a specific role to play, which he does pretty darn well. 2 damage to the dome and taking out an opponents card for :rg: is still good, often better than Shock.

Played something else in his slot? Like...that other 2/1 creature for :rg:? Unless you're playing elementals, there's not another 2 power for 1 mana creature in these colours. Fanatic is good, but for different reasons.

And you could always just Conspire to avoid his drawback, somehow...

[sir-lag-alot]

Maxq2080 seriously, you are really annoying people on this thread...

You seem to have it in your head that we don't understand your post, and are saying things like "Ok i am going to explain 1 more time" yet you clearly do not understand other people's posts that have VALID points that this card is awesome, and i think the best one, which you continue to overlook is the fact that: YOU CANNOT EXPECT ONE MANA TO BE ABSOLUTELY AWESOME.

Shock: it gets 1 single use, then goes to the yard.
Maniac: It can (which is what you are saying it will only do) get 1 hit and then go to the yard, but hang on? that's the worst it can do? so what you are saying is, the worst it can be... is a shock HMMMMMMM please do not forget that it can and WILL do more, yes i know, not all of the time, but again, you cannon expect 1 mana to do that much ALL THE TIME.
Oh and... yes, they can burn it before it attacks, but then, they suck and you will win because that is a retarded thing to do...

You say the drawback is really bad, but clearly it is not... WOW YOU HAVE TO ATTTACK? OH NO OMG, BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO?!?!? If you are not attacking by second turn, something is wrong.

People play their creatures usually because they want to attack you, or use abilities (see llanowar elves) they will not block this guy until they have a critter that will live through it, and if they don't... WTF ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT? :rg:: destroy target creature... that is awesome...

Now are you honestly saying you would block this guy second turn? Didn't think so... and if you would... then HAHAHAHA wow i want to verse you, gotta love easy wins :)

[Drafterdot56]

c'mon guise a 2/1 for :rg: isn't very good mmmkay???? ^_^

NOBODY APPRECIATES MEEEEEEEE!!!!

[Tapped_0ut]

Now are you honestly saying you would block this guy second turn? Didn't think so... and if you would... then HAHAHAHA wow i want to verse you, gotta love easy wins :)

I'd block 2nd turn on the play if I was running treefolk and had a bosk banneret out! :)

Seriously tho, this is an awesome card. All the creatures most people are comparing it to (in the 1 drop spot at least) are the drops from Lorwyn and those are conditional on you playing a certain tribe. This guy fits into any r/g deck that wants the 2 power for 1. If people don't think this card will be very good, then awesome, I'll be sure to get my play set at the prerelease, thank you! :)

[Chainer9999]

Ok I'm going to try this one more time.................

I'm not saying that a 1 or 2 drop has to go the distance.
I'm not saying that a 2/1 for 1 is bad, in fact it's really good.
I'm not saying that hitting for 2 or 4 damage is bad.


What I'm saying is this............

Most of you are trying to make this guy out to be the second coming Tarmogoyf (you know a very efficent creature that everyone wants to play)

He is not the second coming he is a 2/1 with a really bad drawback to him. Will he be played....yes. Will he do some damage absolutely. But only in some games in most games he might get 2 damage in which basically equates to getting to play 8 shocks in your red decks and getting to play 4 shocks in your red decks.

All I'm trying to say is that he is not as good as you all are trying to make him out to be. I'm not trying to convince you all that he unplayable but in most of your matches you will probably be wishing that you had played something else in his slot.

Does any of this make since?

No it doesn't make "since."

None of us are saying he is Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is a versatile creature, while Tattermung is one-dimensional. He will find a home in aggressive mono-red or green decks.

I'll go back to Jackal Pup. Did you see Jackal Pup in any other decklists besides Sligh and RDW? No. Yet, nobody said that Jackal Pup was a bad card. It was a good card, that's why it was in the deck, for heaven's sake.

We are not saying it will be the second coming of Tarmogoyf. We are saying it will be a very good one-drop for aggressive decks that use red or possibly green.

Does that make "sense" to you?

[Destroyer51]

Now are you honestly saying you would block this guy second turn? Didn't think so... and if you would... then HAHAHAHA wow i want to verse you, gotta love easy wins :)

i'd also block on the second turn...





...if i have w-r vanquisher, knight of meadowgrain, or keldon marauders out.

that's assuming i played first too.

[devkarven]

RG aggro
creatures 16
4 mogg fanatic
4 tattermunge maniac
4 tarmogoyf
4 countryside crusher

other spell
4 tarfire
4 incinerate
4 lash out
4 shard volley
4 rift bolt

lands
4 mutavault
3 treetop village
4 karplusan forest
3 horizon canopy
3 fire canopy
7 mountain



side board
3 threaden
4 vexing shusher
4 magus of the moon
3 krosans grip
1 ???

this is my build so far for shadowmoor and it already looks good

[Tapped_0ut]

For those of you concerned about POSSIBLY losing your Tattermung, might I suggest this: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=109487

[sir-lag-alot]

@tapped_out and Destroyer51, why make a joke out of my point? you know exactly what i meant... together you listed 4 creatures and the fact that you had to play first, ok OF COURSE there is going to be exceptions, but as you proved yourselves, they are very situational and are not going to occur much at all...

[Superman13]

@tapped_out and Destroyer51, why make a joke out of my point? you know exactly what i meant... together you listed 4 creatures and the fact that you had to play first, ok OF COURSE there is going to be exceptions, but as you proved yourselves, they are very situational and are not going to occur much at all...

uh, wall of roots, lanawar elves, treefolk harbinger, Doran?, 90% of kithkin including forge tender, mogg fanatic, etc.. there are tons of creaures to block this guy on turn one or two, most of them see play in a deck that im sure wont go under with the release of the new set. hes still the most amazing creature ive seen from the set yet though he will be great in a gruul deck that i think will look more like the red decks in extended did this season.

[Tapped_0ut]

@tapped_out and Destroyer51, why make a joke out of my point? you know exactly what i meant... together you listed 4 creatures and the fact that you had to play first, ok OF COURSE there is going to be exceptions, but as you proved yourselves, they are very situational and are not going to occur much at all...

Agreed! I still think this guy is awesome! but that doesn't mean I can't find a way around him! :) There will always be exceptions (like everyone saying that your creatures can be countered or removed (or if they have shroud, how they die to Wrath)), but that still doesn't mean the card is useless! If a card forces your opponent to USE their removal, or counterspell, ect. because it's that good, then you've just cut down on the number of cards they can use against other threats. Does this make that cut? Only time will tell, but I think it's useable! :)

[sir-lag-alot]

90 % of KITHKIN?!? WHAT?!? umm yeah... maybe if they have a wizened cenn out... as i said OF COURSE there are exceptions... wow people are stupid in these threads as if a 1 drop can't be answered, it's almost as if you are proud to have mentioned those answers CONGATUALATIONS!!!!! YOU BEAT THE FIRST CARD I PLAYED, GOOD JOB!!! i wish i was as good as you man, like wow you are so pro, you beat a 1 drop, i never said this card is the game ender, i mearly pointed out that max is retarded to think it sucks, but clearly he isn't the only one... seriously.

and lets evaluate these answers (to a 1/1? YOU NEED HELP)
Doran: you need to go first, and even then it is hard to get him out.
Llanowar elves? hahahaha you would actually block with this? be my guest...
Forge Tender? You are plating this? hahahhaha be my guest...
The Harbinger + roots, point taken, but they do not kill the maniac, which is the point of this discussion.
90% of kithkin... as i said before they have 2 defence, so it is still a trade.
Wren's Run, yep i would burn it first anyway reguardless of if i had the maniac out...
K o Meadowgrain, that is about the only smart thing you people have said, well that and fanatic, but then again i would be happy to trade for a fanatic ;)
keldon vanishing thing: ok another good point. i'll concede to that.
Bosk Banneret: another good one, but would you risk it? o.O

Ok so you have mentioned 3, possibly 4 viable cretures, where it would be smart to block...

Oh and please don't lower yourselves any further by giving more examples, (like desert!!!! so WHAT?) because yes there probably are more... it's a 1 drop, expect it.

Just because a creature has answers DOES NOT MAKE IT ****... omg!!! shriekmaw kills it!!!!!! now it sucks, seriously wow. and again, after all this, it...is...a...1 drop, it will die, and probably soon, that does NOT make it a bad card...

THIS CARD IS AWESOME but not a game winner OBVIOUSLY!

[justactcasual]

sir-tag-alot has demonstrated the new RPG version of Shadowmoor preview season where we act in-character as the card for each thread. I call dibs on Manamorpose.

[maxq2080]

Maxq2080 seriously, you are really annoying people on this thread...

You seem to have it in your head that we don't understand your post, and are saying things like "Ok i am going to explain 1 more time" yet you clearly do not understand other people's posts that have VALID points that this card is awesome, and i think the best one, which you continue to overlook is the fact that: YOU CANNOT EXPECT ONE MANA TO BE ABSOLUTELY AWESOME.

Shock: it gets 1 single use, then goes to the yard.
Maniac: It can (which is what you are saying it will only do) get 1 hit and then go to the yard, but hang on? that's the worst it can do? so what you are saying is, the worst it can be... is a shock HMMMMMMM please do not forget that it can and WILL do more, yes i know, not all of the time, but again, you cannon expect 1 mana to do that much ALL THE TIME.
Oh and... yes, they can burn it before it attacks, but then, they suck and you will win because that is a retarded thing to do...

You say the drawback is really bad, but clearly it is not... WOW YOU HAVE TO ATTTACK? OH NO OMG, BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO?!?!? If you are not attacking by second turn, something is wrong.

People play their creatures usually because they want to attack you, or use abilities (see llanowar elves) they will not block this guy until they have a critter that will live through it, and if they don't... WTF ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT? :rg:: destroy target creature... that is awesome...

Now are you honestly saying you would block this guy second turn? Didn't think so... and if you would... then HAHAHAHA wow i want to verse you, gotta love easy wins :)

Ok I'm done arguing about this card. As I have said in a previous post on this thread this is just going to have to be a creature that we agree to disagree on until on side is proven right.

Now for the reason that I quoted sir-lag-alot.

I am just arguing my opinion which is why the forums are here. I have not and will never launch attack against a poster for their opinions, like you have above. I will argue against their opinion but I will never make any of this personal and I would request the same respect.

If you are annoyed by my posts then feel free to not read them and skip over them to the next post. I do not apologize for any post.

Also I would love to invite you to my FNM to face me. I think I am a better player than you and would love to face off against you.

As for blocking it on turn 2 it would depend on the situation at hand.

[justactcasual]

I think this is the longest preview thread so far. generated in a day. over a card with all the subtle complexity of a core set common. They really know how to pick 'em for Flores.

Correction: as long as their non-legendary. And even then...I guess Tivadar of Thorn kills Goats

[RoninX]

I think this is the longest preview thread so far. generated in a day. over a card with all the subtle complexity of a core set common. They really know how to pick 'em for Flores.

Correction: as long as their non-legendary. And even then...I guess Tivadar of Thorn kills Goats

To be fair - their IS quite a bit of subtle complexity to the design "fair" of a 2/1 for 1 (in two colors!)

[sir-lag-alot]

Ok max i respect that request, and will obide by it right after saying one thing:

You KNOW this is true: you dodged the fact that i completely proved you wrong with a complaint on how i disrespected you.

How the bananas! do you know you are a better player than me... i think you just made a mistake on your arguments today and are probably a good player, that does not mean you are better or i am better, the imaturity of that statement is just completely through the roof.

I live in Australia btw and i assume you live in USA but if we ever cross paths, it would cool if we could have a couple of games ;) I will bring the maniac, and we will see what happens, should be fun :)

[maxq2080]

Ok max i respect that request, and will obide by it right after saying one thing:

You KNOW this is true: you dodged the fact that i completely proved you wrong with a complaint on how i disrespected you.

How the bananas! do you know you are a better player than me... i think you just made a mistake on your arguments today and are probably a good player, that does not mean you are better or i am better, the imaturity of that statement is just completely through the roof.

I live in Australia btw and i assume you live in USA but if we ever cross paths, it would cool if we could have a couple of games ;) I will bring the maniac, and we will see what happens, should be fun :)

I look forward to it and look foward to arguing with you more:D

But would you concede to the fact that we all will have to wait and see which cards are actually good and actually bad until after the set is released and we have a chance to play with them? (look at Tarmogoyf)

Good night everyone.

(oh and I am in Washington State)

[justactcasual]

Good night and good luck. Ontario, Canada.

[tony28]

I can't believe you guys are arguing over a 1cc creature. To the detractors it's nice having an opinion and some zeal but I have no doubt if this was Jackal Pup when he first came out you'd be arguing "Omg this guy sucks he's a 2/1 and if he ever blocks or trades you lose a life wtf?" My strategy is liek, so unaffected by him. Yes there are kithkin that stop him - Meadowgrain, Stalwart followed-up by Wizened Cenn or a Sunlance but the reality is Kithkin are all about 1cc - 2cc creatures whereas this guy is just the early turn fodder before you play your gruul bombshells. Basically I think this guy spells the end for Kithkin unless decks start featuring 4x Icatian Javelineers too, which I guess have apparently worked super against Faeries (at least according to the recent SCG 1k results). Yes he runs into bigger creatures but I don't think that's going to bother you when you're playing in the colors of the most efficient and powerful midrange creatures and have incinerates/ skreds at your disposal. Also yes a turn two Doran hurts anyone, but how often does that occur? Mogg Fanatic and this guy in tandem hurt faeries. You just need some tramplers to get powered out by Vexing Shusher/ :rg: Counterspell post-SB or a Krosan Grip ready to hit their Bitterblossom and it's practically scoop. Seriously how does a Scion of Oona hit for the win if you've got a fanatic out on the board? Wait for a nameless inversion? What could you have accumulated in that time? More threats, a handful of burn ect. I'm probably exaggerating their fragility but I don't think Faeries would like this match-up at all.

[sir-lag-alot]

@Tony: What do you mean you can't understand why we are arguing over a 1 drop?.. Just so you know, a card can be good even though it's not expensive... I thought that was obvious...

Anyway you just explained why we were arguing... "Basically this guy spells the end for kithkin" and "I don't think faeries would like this matchup at all"

Clearly you too think it is good ;)

@Max: yup good point ;) we will see... Washington State eh? Hmmmm It would actually be pretty funny if we had a game, pity i don't like MTG online, i like real cards :)

[javier_2007_2009]

You are insane if you think this guy will break $2.50. After he comes out and you realize that he has a huge drawback he will drop to a buck. He is a 2/1 goblin for 1 so he isn't that bad... but not as amazing as you are making him sound.

@RoninX: Sure the most common creature drop might be turn 3... but that doesn't mean they aren't playing creature removal for turn 1 and 2.

He will be played and he is good, but his drawback is huge too.


End for Kithkin my @$$... Turn 1 stalwart against this guy... funny... Turn 2 Wizened Cenn against Tattermunge Witch... Funny.

[rincewind32]

Send up the Bat Signal. Quick I'll go to the MTG Salvation boards and you go to the WotC boards and together we can make sure that nobody else infringes on the fact that you were the only one to notice that he is a warrior.

No one else must be allowed to pretend that this idea occurred to them spontaneously!
LOL!!11!11!!

[javier_2007_2009]

This guy is basically Lightning Serpent and Uktabi Drake. Good for 1 turn the end.

[rincewind32]

In most circumstances he will get at least 4 damage in and then be blocked in which case you can decide whether to burn their bigger creature either way he is an efficient creature and will see play. There is plenty of burn and aggressive creatures in the environment, Sligh will love this guy. I remember a similar deck coming 2nd in the world champs before.

[Theobill]

RDW is full of burn that can remove the blockers people are talking about, if they go turn 1 stalwart turn 2 Cenn you can still lash out the Cenn and trade with the stalwart, this guy is good because you don't want to use removal on him and you don't want to trade with a 1 drop, saying that doran is better than him... slightly obvious, one is a 1 drop, one is a 3 drop, one takes 1 mana of any two colours, one require 3 mana each a different colour. The thing that makes this good is that you don't care what happens to him, he's a one drop, if he gets in for two damage, good, if he gets in for 4 damage, great, if he trades with a two drop, brilliant. Would we really be complaining if someone death marked it? no, because it means there's one less piece of removal for a goyf or elephant token. would you be pleased if it did 2 damage, yes because it's already brought your opponent one step closer to burn range.

This card is good because it does damage and your opponent has to deal with it in some way, it also wrecks mono-blue and rev. suspending cloudskate or keeping back mana for runesnag doesn't really do much to stop this guy.

[sir-lag-alot]

I'm just really surprised about the fact that people can say it is bad... i mean wtf it's a 2/1 for :rg:, yeah i understand it's not awesome, but it is still very good imo, and the people who say the drawback is huge? how the f--- is it huge... i have explained many times, and you still don't get it, i'm not gonna explain again.

@javier: noone ever said it will break $2.50, you made that up...

@everyone: Read theobill's post, it is a perfect explanation of why this card is good,

And thankyou bill, good explanation, and it should clear people's minds on automatically hating a card simply because they are probably not going to play it ;)

IT'S AN UNCOMMON, IT MUST BE BAD!!! seems to be the mind frame, hopefully not, but it certainly appears that way... ;)

[the_rorschach]

this card is good. it is not like "metagame altering" or OMG insane, but it is a quality card, with good flavor, excellent development and it will see a lot of play. I personally love this card because I love goblins and i love elves and green is my favorite color, and I finally, FINALLY, i get to play my little green men.....as little green men :) This and vexing shusher are two of my fave cards in SHA so far. I really love how in this one card Wizards created a 2/1 for R and a 2/1 for G. two cards in one almost! Its not as awesome as say, kird ape (but its less conditional), its not as solid as Savannah Lions, and its not as nifty as Jackal Pup. but hey, you're talkin to a guy who loves Mtenda Lions!. Hmmm...i wonder if this would have been better if it said "Tattermunge Maniac cannot block". what do you think? (this card loves Giant Growth/Brute Force/Might of Old Krosa bytheway) I expect this in most Zoo decks and its def goin in my G/R Warrior deck, which was missing a Good solid one drop.

[sir-lag-alot]

And that my friends... Is another good point, RDW needs better 1 drops. Period.

[javier_2007_2009]

@javier: noone ever said it will break $2.50, you made that up...


@ Rba: It will be $5 initially - at least online (like Treetop and Mogg fanatic) then drop down to a $1 uncommon, or less. Many more people draft the block sets then draft the core sets so (again, online) there should be more in circulation faster.
wanna say oops...?


You must be kidding me... why would red want to waste a burn spell to take out a big guy? That's two for one and dumb. Red doesn't care about big creatures. Burn cares about... well burning you directly. If you have to waste burn spells on creatures then you already lost the game. If this guy had haste I'd be yelling "Thank you God" but he doesn't so your opponent gets two turns to kill it. This guy is only good on turn 1... wth can he do after that? Stick to creatures that burn or creatures with haste.

Burn loses to Kithkin because it's faster and you have to waste burn on Killing creatures... what are you going to do attack 10 times with one guy like he can't just get sunlanced?


5 dollars says that this guy won't be in any good deck that places top 4 except maybe in city champs.



IT'S AN UNCOMMON, IT MUST BE BAD!!! seems to be the mind frame, hopefully not, but it certainly appears that way... ;)
No one said that you made that up. Find a player who says Shriekmaw sucks because he is an uncommon and I'll slap him.

[sir-lag-alot]

OOPS on the making up part, BUT you are absolutely completely wrong about the whole "you have already lost if you are burning creatures" statement, i mean how the f---can you think that?

RDW has 2 gameplans:
1. against control: play creatures, ie: maniac (duh!) then burn the dome
2. against aggro: play creatures, burn opponents creatures, keep attacking, burn the dome.

Quite simple really, i played a bad player who left my creatures alone and won, then i playted a good player with the same deck, he burnt my creatures, so he could keep attacking and I lost.

Point is, Blatent generalisations certainly don't prove your point but infact allows others (me) to point them out and accentuate our arguments. ie: you saying what you said about already losing if you are burning creatures just shows me that you clearly have not played RDW

Please post only if you know what you are talking about, don't waste experienced player's time, thanks ;)

[javier_2007_2009]

OOPS on the making up part, BUT you are absolutely completely wrong about the whole "you have already lost if you are burning creatures" statement, i mean how the f---can you think that?

RDW has 2 gameplans:
1. against control: play creatures, ie: maniac (duh!) then burn the dome
2. against aggro: play creatures, burn opponents creatures, keep attacking, burn the dome.

Quite simple really, i played a bad player who left my creatures alone and won, then i playted a good player with the same deck, he burnt my creatures, so he could keep attacking and I lost.

Point is, Blatent generalisations certainly don't prove your point but infact allows others (me) to point them out and accentuate our arguments. ie: you saying what you said about already losing if you are burning creatures just shows me that you clearly have not played RDW

Please post only if you know what you are talking about, don't waste experienced player's time, thanks ;)

First of all that all depends on who you play. I would never leave a creature with power over 1 alone to attack me constantly. I'd cast my removal spell.
How do you expect to keep playing creatures and burn the dome(lmao)? Have you found a way to play with infinite cards in your hand?

I played rdw with Assassins... it was hilarious. The whole deck was murdered by one single cast of Tendrils.



And like you said...
"I played a bad player and won"
"I played a good player and lost"
"Don't waste experienced player's time".
How can you even use that in the same argument? That's insane, you're insane, so plea insanity.

[sir-lag-alot]

Ok you wanna play the personal insult game do you? well i guess i can sink to your level ;)
Ummmm yeah well if i'm insane, you sir are a complete retard
WTF do you mean i cant use that in the same argument? the best player in the world will still lose to a good player... wow

The "RDW" deck you said you played, absolutely sucked if it lost to a single tendrils...

And the infinte card thing? are you high? i merely stated (IF YOU ACTUALLY READ IT) cast creatures, kill creatures keep attacking burn to the dome, how do i need infinite cards for that? 2 creatures, some burn, not that hard to get more stuff (you DO draw every turn remember?)

Dude as i said earlier, if you have no idea what you are talking about, please just shut up and stop wasting our time...

It's ok man, with practice, you may improve, but i don't know, might be too hard for you :( Good Luck none the less, you will need it

And now i'm gonna stop arguing with the you, idiot, because you will just bring me down to your level and beat me with experience.

You are a bad player. Period.

[javier_2007_2009]

Ok you wanna play the personal insult game do you? well i guess i can sink to your level ;)
Ummmm yeah well if i'm insane, you sir are a complete retard
WTF do you mean i cant use that in the same argument? the best player in the world will still lose to a good player... wow

The "RDW" deck you said you played, absolutely sucked if it lost to a single tendrils...

And the infinte card thing? are you high? i merely stated (IF YOU ACTUALLY READ IT) cast creatures, kill creatures keep attacking burn to the dome, how do i need infinite cards for that? 2 creatures, some burn, not that hard to get more stuff (you DO draw every turn remember?)

Dude as i said earlier, if you have no idea what you are talking about, please just shut up and stop wasting our time...

It's ok man, with practice, you may improve, but i don't know, might be too hard for you :( Good Luck none the less, you will need it

And now i'm gonna stop arguing with the you, idiot, because you will just bring me down to your level and beat me with experience.

You are a bad player. Period.
That was uncalled for... I never insulted you. Learn to respect other peoples opinions.

You are a child and I'm 17 so if I were you I'd take that as an insult.

You haven't proven one thing and RDW sucks now so it loses to just about everything. Don't think a sucky 1 drop will change that.

P.S. I couldn't bring you down to a lower level then you just did yourself if I chopped your legs off.

[rincewind32]

Debate is good, Arguing by contradicting each other all the time is not, but insults are bang out of order! This forum is not for insulting people who don't share you views!! Get a grip people!!

[sir-lag-alot]

Ok as i said, i will stop, but really, i never condradicted myself.
And yes, you did insult me,
calling me insane, and saying you couldn't bring me down any lower...(that's just it, "any lower" because you already brought me down that far) which contradicted your WHOLE argument, saying that it is low to insult WTF, it's like saying "i hate chocolate, but i love chocolate ice-cream" Doesn't make sense, neither do any of your arguments.

Hey maybe i WAS low beacuse you lowered me, i had to, there was nothing more i could do, because you obviously can't handle maturity...next you will bag me for my spelling, would be no surprise... omg i responded, just lowered some more. i will say it once more PLEASE STOP WASTING OUR TIME

And that is all for this argument, on to some more constructive stuff, Of course a measly 1/1 isn't gonna change much, but it will definately help... plus with other stuff from Shadowmoor, RDW might have a comeback, we just have to wait and see ;)

Good Luck all ;)

[javier_2007_2009]

Ok as i said, i will stop, but really, i never condradicted myself.
And yes, you did insult me,
calling me insane, and saying you couldn't bring me down any lower...(that's just it, "any lower" because you already brought me down that far) which contradicted your WHOLE argument, saying that it is low to insult WTF, it's like saying "i hate chocolate, but i love chocolate ice-cream" Doesn't make sense, neither do any of your arguments.

Hey maybe i WAS low beacuse you lowered me, i had to, there was nothing more i could do, because you obviously can't handle maturity...next you will bag me for my spelling, would be no surprise... omg i responded, just lowered some more. i will say it once more PLEASE STOP WASTING OUR TIME

And that is all for this argument, on to some more constructive stuff, Of course a measly 1/1 isn't gonna change much, but it will definately help... plus with other stuff from Shadowmoor, RDW might have a comeback, we just have to wait and see ;)

Good Luck all ;)


"That's insane, you're insane, so plea insanity."
I'm a big fan of the Joker so I always say that. If you looked at my myspace or anything at all I have an avatar for it says "I plea insanity". I have yet to insult you. The worst thing I said was you are a child. And how is saying "I can't bring you any lower then you did yourself" an insult?

I don't disrespect people. I argue my case but I never tell people "you're an idiot because you believe that". The worst thing I say is "you're insane" but I say that to everyone even my best friends... you never hear me going around saying "hey buddy you're an idiot a dumb retarded idiot"

Learn how to spell... We humans spell it "because".... <-- thats a joke. lol

I looked over the things you said... If I were a moderator I'd ban you because of your attitude. It's like you are yelling at little kids. I'd appreciate it if you just never quoted me or said a single phrase that has my name in it. I swear on my soul I'll do the same for you.



As for you other people just so you know I said that this card was terrible, but that was just because he was making me mad... I believe he is average just that his drawback is not something to be taken lightly.

[sir-lag-alot]

Yup fair enough, i looked over your stuff and you have some really good points, sorry for insulting you, and yeah, i cbf arguing anymore ulgh! back on topic i'll be! lol but seriously sorry man :(

[javier_2007_2009]

No problem I got a little carried away too. I apologize as well.

[maxq2080]

@Max: yup good point ;) we will see... Washington State eh? Hmmmm It would actually be pretty funny if we had a game, pity i don't like MTG online, i like real cards :)



Wow we agree on something ::eek:

[Superman13]

90 % of KITHKIN?!? WHAT?!? umm yeah... maybe if they have a wizened cenn out... as i said OF COURSE there are exceptions... wow people are stupid in these threads as if a 1 drop can't be answered, it's almost as if you are proud to have mentioned those answers CONGATUALATIONS!!!!! YOU BEAT THE FIRST CARD I PLAYED, GOOD JOB!!! i wish i was as good as you man, like wow you are so pro, you beat a 1 drop, i never said this card is the game ender, i mearly pointed out that max is retarded to think it sucks, but clearly he isn't the only one... seriously.

and lets evaluate these answers (to a 1/1? YOU NEED HELP)
Doran: you need to go first, and even then it is hard to get him out.
Llanowar elves? hahahaha you would actually block with this? be my guest...
Forge Tender? You are plating this? hahahhaha be my guest...
The Harbinger + roots, point taken, but they do not kill the maniac, which is the point of this discussion.
90% of kithkin... as i said before they have 2 defence, so it is still a trade.
Wren's Run, yep i would burn it first anyway reguardless of if i had the maniac out...
K o Meadowgrain, that is about the only smart thing you people have said, well that and fanatic, but then again i would be happy to trade for a fanatic ;)
keldon vanishing thing: ok another good point. i'll concede to that.
Bosk Banneret: another good one, but would you risk it? o.O

Ok so you have mentioned 3, possibly 4 viable cretures, where it would be smart to block...

Oh and please don't lower yourselves any further by giving more examples, (like desert!!!! so WHAT?) because yes there probably are more... it's a 1 drop, expect it.

Just because a creature has answers DOES NOT MAKE IT ****... omg!!! shriekmaw kills it!!!!!! now it sucks, seriously wow. and again, after all this, it...is...a...1 drop, it will die, and probably soon, that does NOT make it a bad card...

THIS CARD IS AWESOME but not a game winner OBVIOUSLY!

people in this thread arent stupid there just better at completing a thought. ya i would trade my elf for this guy, and yes i would sure as hell block him with forge tender as he has protection from red, learn your cards. and you are very wrong when you say he is not a game winner, i cant count how many times ive seen a little dude go the distance thats what aggro decks do they play a little dude and race you.

[Magidex]

Yeah. Everybody needs to learn that you run FOUR of this card, and you don't give a damn what happens to him, as long as you get some damage in. And then you burn the face FTW.

Simple, simple, simple.

[Superman13]

thats exactly how r/g works you play a bunch of little really cheap really good dorks and then you burn them out, it is simple

[sir-lag-alot]

RDW has 2 gameplans:
1. against control: play creatures, ie: maniac (duh!) then burn the dome
2. against aggro: play creatures, burn opponents creatures, keep attacking, burn the dome.


Yeah.. I agree, lol? If you can play it right, yes that is the plan, but you can't hope they have no answers at all for your first turn drop is all that i meant... ;)

just to clear things up, with the forge tender I personally don't like the card and what i meant was: You shouldn't be playing it in the first case, BUT looking at it now, i agree that it probably will see play due to all of the cards red has been getting in Shadowmoor. Sorry about the confusion guys, lol it's really funny how you say the most stupid things just when your trying to proove somone wrong.

Of course i don't know yet, but i'm really liking DRW atm.

Btw has I'm pretty sure that the "new char" has been confirmed!!!!

Flame Javelin :2:/:r: :2:/:r: :2:/:r:
Instant Uncommon
~ deals 4 damage to target creature or player.
#92/301

!!!!YAY CHAR!!!! But hang on... I'm going mono, better than char!!, uncommon!! omg wow love it, Okay i'm getting carriede away, wrong thread for this, Cya peoples ;)