Tooth - Discussion Thread

[JStephens]

Here are a few builds to get the party started...

31027

7 Forest.
5 Island.
12 Tron.
2 Hinder.
4 Condescend.
4 Inspiration.
4 Tooth.
4 Reap and Sow.
2 Silvan Scry.
3 Darksteel Ingot.
1 Kiki.
1 Colosus.
4 Witness.
1 Platinum Angel.
1 Leonin Abunas.
2 Keiga.
4 Sakura Tribe Elder.


The Old Thread
http://forum.tcgplayer.com/showthread.php?t=13

[NickWhiz1]

Cue complaining in 3...2...1...

4 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Sundering Titan
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Platinum Angel

4 Reap and Sow
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Tooth and Nail
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Plow Under
3 Sensei's Divining Top

10 Forest
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plaint
4 Urza's Tower

4 Naturalize
3 Mindslaver
2 Rude Awakening
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Duplicant
1 Mephidross Vampire
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Plow Under
1 Triskelion

Yes, I realize I have a lack of black splash for Cranial Extraction, but that's because I don't have any :(

[MagicSer]

Cue complaining in 3...2...1...

4 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Sundering Titan
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Platinum Angel

4 Reap and Sow
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Tooth and Nail
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Plow Under
3 Sensei's Divining Top

10 Forest
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plaint
4 Urza's Tower

4 Naturalize
3 Mindslaver
2 Rude Awakening
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Duplicant
1 Mephidross Vampire
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Plow Under
1 Triskelion

Yes, I realize I have a lack of black splash for Cranial Extraction, but that's because I don't have any :(
*pat on back*
I would say I feel your pain, but I have plenty of Cranial Extractions. :)

Anyways, your deck is almost exactly like mine, except that I have 3 Rampant Growths instead of the Plow Unders. Weird... If you have playtested some, please tell me if the Plows are worth adding.

[Raditz6x3]

Lets get a real list in here: :D

// Creatures:
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Duplicant
2x Sundering Titan
1x Kiki-Jiki
1x Platinum Angel
1x Leonin Abunas
3x Eternal Witness
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
// Spells:
4x Tooth and Nail
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Reap and Sow
4x Sylvan Scrying
2x Rampant Growth
3x Plow Under
3x Oblivion Stone
// Land:
10 Forest
1x Okina
1x City of Brass
4x Urza's Tower
4x Urza's Mine
3x Urza's Power Plant
// SIDE:
1x Boseiju
1x Sundering Titan
1x Plow Under
1x Kodama of the North Tree
3x Naturalize
1x Swamp
3x Cranial Extraction
4x Troll Asetic

I changed my SB yesterday, heres the old one:

1x Boseiju
1x Sundering Titan
1x Plow Under
2x Rude Awakening
3x Naturalize
1x Swamp
3x Cranial Extraction
3x Echoing Decay

The Decays were an experiment that I wasn't happy with. I've been looking for a card that was good against aggro. Decay is but I can seldom cast it when it matters. I've decided that Trolls would be better. Running Trolls and the North Tree also make MUC a much better game. If they can't counter those they will usually lose to them.

As of right now I think that A/A is still better than T/V but only time will tell on that one. If black aggro becomes popular or WW decides to drop Matrix, T/V may become better.

[HazaredTheOmega]

theres already a T&N Thread with over 30 pages...

[airgaps]

yeah we should all join in the old thread... all efforts together je !

[Wild Card]

theres already a T&N Thread with over 30 pages...

Yes... and nobody needs a thread with over 30 pages including at least two different type 2 environments...

[Risky]

This looks like a cleanup job from the management. The old threads were, well, old. They don't account for the release of Betrayers, and most of the information in them certainly doesn't apply to the post ban environment. It truly is a whole new world, and while the basic idea of the deck carries over (mana accel into Tooth and Nail) much of the deck will need to be changed. I think a fresh start will make things easier both for old posters to organize their thoughts, and for new posters to enter the discussion.

[tu_mater]

Ok, I built my TNN 2 weeks ago, when I began searching for a replacement for my fresh maker, and I understand a lot of your choices in the listed decks above. However, I don't understand a few of them, like:
1, why r u running plowunder? I have not really seen any match ups where this card would be useful, except maybe mirror, and green blue (and i am pretty sure that they would just counter it anyway) so if it is for mirror wouldn't that make it a side board? The way I see it I can get a consitant turn 4 or 5 tooth so why do I need plow?

2. Why wouldn't you still run the Dross Trisk??? IMO that is still a viable part of the main board. I will grant you that it is not a house against the control decks, but it ruins the agro decks. And if you think that there are no viable agro decks out there just look on the main page of brain burst there is an article about an agro white deck. While white may not have many answers for the abunus angle, I think that the abilty to wipe the agro blacks and such is key to this deck ruling the format. This is not that big of a deal i guess since most of you r running them is board but why not main?

3. I have not tested this yet but is crainal really needed in board?? My build is different to the ones posted, but what are you bringing it against? Is it just for the mono-black and rock? I could see bringing it for brib too but i am not sure that it is needed. Against black you should not be ruined if they crainal tooth. and against blue you can just pull most of the good creatures like: JIKI a must pull for blue green (jiki solem or witness is very bad) abunus angel just because YOU cant handle em either. Trisk dross cause they are pretty much worthless unless your worried about rude (though they prob. already got trisk by then) so that leaves you with titan and colosis, and from what i have seen they don't really want titan (cause it still hurts their blue) so they take collosis and you should be able to match that collosis when they tap out for brib.

Well this is already to long and to much of a rant so I will have to post my deck tomorrow. cause it is 5:30 and I have a slave driver for a boss, so gotta get some sleep.

Please if I am missing something about this deck please let me know becuase I just don't get some of your choices.

[lotus petal]

it works it really does, but tooth with cocoa puff (a.k.a. kokushu) or 2 is just pure genius. or mephidross vampire and triskelion with a rite o passage in play. collussus is just overplayed.

be a man kill em with grizzly bears!

[byroneous]

I am going to put my foot in my mouth...I think once you start testing all the match-ups, you will realize that TNN still has the raw power, and probably is the best 1 shot/turn wonder in standard but...it is not the top deck. Cranial Extraction is this decks worst nightmare. A turn 3 or 4 Extraction naming TNN, then Witness it back and do it again for Titan or Collosuss or naming whatever creature is your best threat, basically makes TNN a Draw/Go deck w/ nothing left to do but draw & say go. To get it to adapt to all the decks: RED Land D (Ponza), MBC, MUC, 'Rock' like decks, etc...all the decks that came out of the woodwork since Affinity was strangled, is too much for this deck. I am not saying it can not be done but so far, no post I have seen have done it. There have been some watered down versions, even some interesting concepts but none of them are consistently beating the field. When your whole deck hinges on 1 card, it is easy to thwart the concept by stopping that one card.

I would like to see a good version. Hopefully someone will make that deck...I have since moved on but will enjoy testing its viability.

[cricketHunter]

I think to combat this metagame shift, TnN will have to take up the combo mantle.

If we are truly returning to a balanced meta then the following should be true:
Aggro > Combo > Control > Aggro > ...

Right now TnN is kind of undecided on how to act. On the one hand, against Ravager it WAS control, with oxidizes, shamans and eternal witnesses struggling to give it the best possible chance against the most outrageous Aggro deck in the field.

When the metagame shifts towards control - as it always does late in the season (as worlds approaches) - I think TnN will profit most from seeing itself as the combo deck. That means, to a certain extent, accepting the fact that you will most likely lose to whatever aggro decks stick around (ponza, WW, etc.), unless your combo is quicker than their pressure. But, a lot of the builds I see on the boards (including my own) can't quite give up the whole combo/control hybrid thing. Afterall, that versatility works best for your typical FNM field.

But at high level events, I believe only the most streamlined combo oriented TnN decks will thrive.

That means main decking cards that allow you to basically ignore your opponent and play your own game (Hello, Boseiju).

That's what I see TnN needing to do - maximize speed, redundency and the whole combo-ignore-the-opponent-philosophy.

What kills combo - disruption and early pressure. Since, I believe we should focus on beating control, I think our md should have an anti-disruption focus. How does mono-green do that? I have no earthly idea.

My $.02.

[No_Dice]

Defense Grid ^ ^?

[cricketHunter]

I think Boseiju is much more elegant than defense grid. It's almost like it was made for this deck.

The disruption I'm thinking about is mana/hand disruption. Mana disruption we are able to shrug off the easiest (we do run oh... about a dozen land search spells), but hand disruption (and deck disruption like CE) is something I've been struggling to answer.

It is nice that we can just randomly hit a huge mana spell turn 4-5 while they MUST have CE turn 4, or else. I don't know how many times I've topped into a Sundering Titan thinking, "well I guess I'll just cast this." Or topped into a viscious string of Eternal Witness, Entwined Reap and Sow, shuffle then top for either Eternal Witness or Reap and Sow... rinse, lather, repeat. Something about entwining reap and sow five times in a row tends to crush opponents.

[No_Dice]

So what kind of cards are you looking for to help you? Do they exist?

[cricketHunter]

Honestly I think it begins by NOT playing certain cards. After the bannings were announced I penciled in Naturalize main (in place of Oxidize), and put two O. Stones and Angel/Abunas from the board back in to deal with randomness.

After some testing, those were bad ideas. I was basically playing on the combo/control fence which I don't think is necessary.

Ironically enough, I think this should be our inspiration:

3 Tree of Tales
2 Ancient Den
2 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
-----------
19 land


-----------
0 creatures

4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
3 Talisman of Dominance
1 Fireball
1 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chrome Mox
3 Fabricate
4 Myr Incubator
4 Pentad Prism
4 Condescend
3 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtcast
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Talisman of Progress
-----------
41 other spells

It's Manuel Bevand KCI t8 deck from Worlds - notice it only cares about its opponent enough to run 4 condescends - mostly for the deck filtering.

Maybe I'm on completely the wrong track, but once I cut all those pieces out of my deck that I don't feel adhere to the combo philosophy I'll have a better feeling for what kind of cards I need. I hope that the holes in my decklist will inspire me. Otherwise, that's why I'm posting this at all, I don't know what to put in...

Help!

[Soniex]

Ok, in my opinion this this the best t2 deck since the bannings, hands down. The only other deck that might stand a good chance aginst it (one that doesnt require this deck getting screwed to win) is U/G Control.

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
4 Eternal Witness
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Platinum Angel
4 Solemn Simuraclum
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskileion
1 Mephidross Vampire
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder

3 Oblivion Stone
3 Mindslaver
4 Reap and Sow
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Tooth and Nail

10 Forest
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower

[No_Dice]

That build looks pretty solid. Going by what Cricket is saying, though, the deck should not look at the opponent at all. The deck should simply run 3-4 o stone to wipe the board, and then play solitaire... I don't know if thats the best way of going about it, but if thats the way Cricket wants it, he could possibly go with simply colossus beats, by taking out many of the other creature cards that provide answers and simply adding speed, perhaps chrome mox, more land ramp, rude awakening for mana float, vine trellis... etc.. That way you're more involved with simply resolving a tooth and winning right away.

[Raditz6x3]

Combo Tooth:

4x Tooth
2x Titan
1x Colossus
1x Kiki

4x Mox
4x BoP
4x STE
3x Rampant Growth
4x Reap
3x Scrying

3x Eternal Witness
4x Plow Under

12 Tron
10 Forest
1x Okina

This build is geared for one thing: Tempo. It's goal is a T4 Tooth everytime, T3 is possible but It requires a nearly perfect draw.

Is this what your looking for Cricket???

[keyblade]

The major problem with your deck, Raditz, is that you have answers built in which is pretty taboo in combo, especially when they take up for slots and cost 5.

An interesting thing I've noticed is that a U/G Tooth with a very control oriented build can hod an opp. off before winning in one turn, of course you need 11 mana for that.

[Jhemel]

Plow Under isn't really an "answer" card, but rather a tempo card. If you can build a big gap between you and your opponent, then his chances of stopping you get slim. That same concept is what land destruction decks are based at.

[No_Dice]

Raditz, I think you got the idea of what cricket was trying to accomplish. I'm interested in seeing what he thinks of it.

[Raditz6x3]

The major problem with your deck, Raditz, is that you have answers built in which is pretty taboo in combo, especially when they take up for slots and cost 5.

An interesting thing I've noticed is that a U/G Tooth with a very control oriented build can hod an opp. off before winning in one turn, of course you need 11 mana for that.
As Jhemel already pointed out the Plows aren't answers they are tempo based threats. The whole point of that deck is to control the tempo of the game until you Tooth, be it on T3, T4 or T5.


later all,

PS: No Dice if your going to right something please make it relevent.

[chaosbringer3000]

What's the sideboarding plan against Ponza and RG Kiki? Both of them have either Chrome Mox or BoP for a 2nd or 3rd turn land destruction/ plow under...

[One-of-chaos]

I would say try to get 9 land rather than tron against ponza/freshmaker, 2 or more LD are gonna ruin your chance of tronning it. Bring in I dunno, sacred ground I guess.

[localloco]

have any of you thought of white in the sideboard...me and my friends all have different deck builds but we all agree that white in the side board is good put in two plains 3-4 sacred grounds and then whatever else boseiju more titan or whatever and if you dont believe this is a good idea test it against ponza it works like a charm everytime and they wont destroy your white land because you dont play your white land until you get the sacred ground this is so simple and im suprised none of you have thought about it...

[Bringer Of The Sunburst]

This is my Tooth build, i'm looking for opinions on how to make it better

land:
4 tower
4 power plant
3 mine
11 forest
1 okina

creatures:
4 eternal witness
4 sakura tribe elder
1 darksteel colossus
1 duplicant
1 platinum angel
1 leonin abunas
1 sundering titan
1 kiki-jiki

other spells:
4 tooth and nail
4 plow under
4 sylvan scrying
3 reap and sow
3 sensei's divining top
3 mindslaver
2 oblivion stone

SB(not yet complete, still need to find spot fillers)
1 triskelion
1 mephidross vamp
4 oxidize
9 ???
anyone have any suggestions for me?

[BalancedChaos]

Well well, Boom Stones have come back again.. This might be a stupid question to ask, but why are people playing them? Stones are good against aggro, and Tooth wants to out race aggro. Why not use those 2-3 slots for mana accel?

Here is my list:

24 Land

11 Forest
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
3 Urza's Powerplant
1 City of Brass
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers

16 Creatures

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
2 Sundering Titan
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Platinum Angel

20 Other Spells

4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Tooth and Nail
3 Mindslaver
3 Rampant Growth
3 Reap and Sow
3 Sensei's Divining Top

My sideboard is really shakey, though it would look something like this..

3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Cranial Extraction
3 Plow Under
2 Naturalize
2 Rude Awakening
1 Sundering Titan
1 Swamp

Fire away chaps.

[Bringer Of The Sunburst]

BoP in my opinion aren't too good, too easy to kill, any kind of red would take them out first thing, and i run stones because aggro is big in my area

[Galvatron]

Bop is good for mana acell but i dont se its place in this deck and right now PONZA stands to be tooths worst matchup

[Omnixience]

Sorry, I just have a funny little story for everyone.

I was playing my tooth and nail, which is fairly generic, except that I'm lacking one or two of the real power combos, and play a couple sideboard creatures instead, for now. anyway:

So, there I was, fourth turn. My friend had gone first, and his little creatures ( powered by his Glorious Anthem ) had me down to 5 life. He had five creatures in play, four of which had flying. At this point, he pretty much knew he had me. No matter what I did, I couldn't lay enough blockers down to stop him. I pulled the forest I needed, and played tooth and nail. Hell, I figured, it can't hurt. As I was working my way through my library, I noticed a blue card that wouldn't normally belong. Hoverguard Sweepers just happened to be residing in my deck, until a triskelion could be attained. I then proceeded to pull out kiki, and, copying my hoverguard, kindly returned four creatures to his hand. Since this fateful game, I have decided that the Sweepers are not as useless as I once believed.

[arky305]

Augh!!! Hoverguard Sweepers! I can't believe that he played Hoverguard Sweepers. I was so (and still am) very disappointed because of it.

Regardless, WW all the way! =D

[Bringer Of The Sunburst]

how do you guys think rootrunner would go in this deck, TNN for rotrunner kiki-jiki: copy rootrunner, sac it all they draw from then on is the same land over and over?

[Raditz6x3]

why not just go for Kiki/Titan???

[yauz3r]

hmmm...about the new environment, with all the artifact-hate gone...maybe

we could even use planar portal maybe? Just a suggestion. I was thinking,

that since we could generally generate so much mana by turn 4-5, we might

as well have a tutor-of-sorts? Just a suggestion. :o

I would experiment with it, but midterms are comin' up so I'm totally

swamped atm. I would love for your guys' suggestions...especially yours

Raditz and Jhemel...seeing that you two are the resident experts atm.

~Anyways, again, just a suggestion.

[Raditz6x3]

Planar Portal has been suggested before and shot down but I can't remember why. I personally don't like it because it takes two turns and 18 mana before you get any card advantage out of it. Tooth gets nine mana easily but twelve is a little harder.

Also I don't think that artifact removal will decrease much. (like I said earlier I feel that relying soley on OStones as artifact
removal was a mistake). Making cards like Portal that much less useful.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Heres my latest tooth build. it never lets me down. Entered FNM and only lost because of a very very bad draw.

12 Urzatron
10 Forests
1 Plains
1 Boseiju

4 Reap and Sow
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Tooth and Nail
2 Rude Awakening

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Eternal Witness
4 Solemn Simulacrum

2 Mind Slaver
2 Senseis Divining Top

1 Darksteel Collosus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Sudnering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Kiki Jiki

SB
3 Sacred Ground (Screw Ponza)
3 Naturalize (Screw Enchantments and Shackles)
1 Sundering Titan (Mirror and Rock decks)
1 Triskelion (Aggro)
1 Mephidross Vampire (Aggro)
3 Scrabbling Claws (Witness tricks? No more :) )
3 Silent Arbiter (You have Hokori? I have silent arbiter :D)

[CB4]

Here's my build...

// Lands
4 [AQ] Urza's Mine (1)
4 [AQ] Urza's Power Plant (3)
4 [AQ] Urza's Tower (3)
10 [UG] Forest
1 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 [CHK] Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers

// Creatures
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [MR] Platinum Angel
3 [DS] Sundering Titan
1 [MR] Leonin Abunas
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder

// Spells
4 [DS] Reap and Sow
4 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MR] Tooth and Nail
4 [MR] Oblivion Stone
2 [FD] Rude Awakening

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 3 [MR] Duplicant
SB: 4 [8E] Plow Under
SB: 4 [MR] Troll Ascetic
SB: 3 [MR] Culling Scales


I have had great success vs decks running extraction by boarding

-4 T&N
-1 boseiju
-1 kiki
-1 abunas
-1 o-stone
-2 rude (vs black or red)
-1 platinum (vs black or red)
+4 troll
+4 plow under
+3 duplicant (vs black for kokusho or red for slogger)

You become this aggro deck (trolls and titan) with removal (o-stone and duplicant), LD (plow, reap, and titan), and recursion (witness). You no longer require the tron and can get 6 land no problem because of all the land search.

It is very resilient vs sowing salt as well as cranial (tron not needed). When they miss on an extraction and waste turn 3-4 it is soooo sweet. Trolls are a beating for red and blue. You can then decide to board tooths back in game 3. Has won me 5-6 matches already.

Culling scales are for white weenie which is a VERY tough match.

[yauz3r]

I see your point. Well, like I said, it was just a suggestion. Sometimes, there

are just those one games where I generate so much mana, but I never get

the cards I need, thus the idea of portal. But as I recall, I think I also read

the post as to why it was shot down, but that was during pre-bannings I

believe...hence alot of numerous artifact hate. Thus, the idea of using portal

was rejected.

But, currently, with builds like yours, the deck looks pretty

stable...and I doubt Saviors will have anything of use for us either. (Knock

on wood). I mean, I still look get a fourth turn TNN ever so often if I'm lucky,

but I'd like to be able to fetch for the exact cards I need since I'm spending

my early turns generating up to so much mana. I mean, don't get me wrong,

I still play out the angel(s), titan(s), whatever comes my way via TOP, but I

just thought that since we gettin' all the mana, we might as well tutor for

what we needed. Eh, just my 2 cents. But thanks again for the advice. See

ya around.

[HazaredTheOmega]

CB4 thats the most stupidest thing ive ever heard for T&N.

Board out T&N just for Rock or mono black? Side in Troll Ascetic?

And yeah blow them up too with O Stone. Wheee! Thats genius thinking!

[Raditz6x3]

CB4: I had the same idea before States, and I caught so much flak for it. I tested it a little and it worked fairly well. I still think it is a good idea. I'm glad I'm not the only crazy one around here:D

[keyblade]

wait, so does every deck with cranial go for Tooth first? I always hit Witness first.

[Omnixience]

Wheee! Thats genius thinking!

Wow. No sarcasm intended, right? ;)


__________________________________________________ ______
Anyway, I was wondering why anyone would put more than one or two of the same creature in their sideboard for a TNN deck? Kinda pointless when you can find the one you need when you need to... right?

[One-of-chaos]

an extraplaner lense deck might be good?

[Raditz6x3]

I totally disagree with that article. Artifact hate will decrease slightly if at all. IMO the amount of hate will not change, the cards will. Oxidize will be replaced with Naturalize, Viridian Shaman will be replaced by Viridian Zealot. But the overall amount of hate in the format will remain relativly unchanged.

[No_Dice]

I'm kind of with Raditz here. People will start to use enchantments more because the environment slowed down slightly due to the loss of raffinity, but artifacts are always going to be powerful as long as mirrodin is present.

[Raditz6x3]

wow diskdrive, you got banned in under 8 minutes from the time of your first post, they're getting faster.

anyway I totally agree with you one Lens, If I had to run a mana doubler I'd run Heartbeat of Spring before I ran Lens.

[Dantes]

Aww I blew my own cover, diskdrive22 and 23 got banned, I think I might cry:( .
But diskdrive24 has come up from the ashes and ready to talk lol:p .

Don't count on it.

Drive, it takes you what, five or six minutes to register a new account?

I can delete it in 10 seconds.

I'll play that game as long as you want.

Your move.

[One-of-chaos]

Hey just wondering is extraplanner lense a decent mana base? It would allow a color splash.

[Raditz6x3]

ya know Dantes, most of what Diskdrive says is relavent and not spam. I dont' see why he always gets banned immediatly.

[Dantes]

ya know Dantes, most of what Diskdrive says is relavent and not spam. I dont' see why he always gets banned immediatly.

You know, I agree with you, that's the sad part.

He does have some very valid magic related opinions, he also has delusions of persecution. He has a very personal grudge against Risky, and he went off on him in an abusive manner.

I temp banned him for a week, and he decided that we (the mods as a group) were out to get him. I've given him multiple second chances as well. For a while when he was posting as Jackal Puppy, I thought he was going to be fine, but then he started going off on Risky again.

Right now, all he wants to do is play stupid games, unfortunately, I have no choice but to continue this infantile little dance.

If he ever decides he wants to grow up, create a new account, and behave himself, I'm willing to give him another chance. That said, as long as he keeps wasting time with these stupid diskdrive posts, he is not welcome at this site.

[Galvatron]

it makes me wonder what instigated that personal grudge?
i mean comon Risky is proably mature enough to forgive him but the question Dantes would ask is the vice versa question.
Quite the conundrum isn't it?

[Raditz6x3]

I think what started most of the problems with DiskDrive was his spam war with Disciple of Terra on the Old BB Tooth Thread. those two argued for like 10 pages over who was better and other unimportant junk.

[Dantes]

I think what started most of the problems with DiskDrive was his spam war with Disciple of Terra on the Old BB Tooth Thread. those two argued for like 10 pages over who was better and other unimportant junk.



What really spun it out of control was when drive started accusing Risky of editing innapropriate content into his posts.

[Galvatron]

WOw what a bunch of |_4|\/|3rZ.
arguing about stupid stuff like that did they draw upon any sort of refrence at all to supot ther views? as well as drive acusing risky without sufficiant evidence.
if not thats pretty stupid I would have just droped it and gone back to the man topic that was suposed to be discussed
speaking of wich: How would MBC play against the toth matchup what silver bull3ts dose it fear the most?

[Jhemel]

@ yauz3r:

Planar Portal can still be good, but there are so many other options that outshine it. For me, I'd rather use Sensei's Peeking Top and the 12 shuffle effects of TnN to get the card that I need. If your lands wre picked on or you didn't have the 'tron yet, then the chances of Planar Portal being effective goes down to nil. It's so mana-intensive, I even gave up using it in my MBC deck back when it played Extraplanar Lens. If you really want to try it out, maybe take out 1 Eternal Wetness and 1 Oblivion Stone and replace them with 2 Planar Portals and then test it out.


@ CB4:

If you know they're calling for Toooooth and Nail when they Extract, what's the point of taking them out? I mean, if they do get your Toooooth, didn't they just make your deck better and thinner by making it four cards less? That's if you still have another win condition though. Kodama North would be better than Troll Ascetic in this case.


@ One-of-chaos:

Please stay away from Extraplanar Lens. It doesn't allow color splash. It removes your land. A great Toooooth build doesn't need a color splash.


@ Galvatron:

MBC should pack 4 Persecutes against Toooooth. Toooooth can win against MBC if it can play early tempo cards like Plow Under and Reap and Sow. Also, pack in other win conditions should they Extract for Toooooth and Nail.


@ Raditz6x3:

Anything new about your deck? :)

[Galvatron]

thats exactly what hes been doing i have to extract plaow half the time i think he mains it cloud hurtsd him thogh waht would you say on using befoul agianst him

[affinityplaya]

this whole thread seems to be turning into spam now so while were at it galvatron open up space in your pm box and check my list



on topic

does anyone think extra planar lens will be any good?

silent arbiter against aggro?

vernal bloom sb?



suggestiosn?

[Galvatron]

Lens is REALy iffy right now id wait till alll the rookies realize that Rafintiy isnt ther you know wait till the artifact dies down a bit

Ap sorry about that i got alot of PMS today i cleared out my box

[Jhemel]

The Lens has been discussed over, and I think this will be the last time that I'll respond to that suggestion. It's more vulnerable compared to Vernal Bloom, with the same drawback. It's faster, but it's also a loss of land. Given your lands are all Forests, turn 3 Lens gives you 6 mana on turn 4, and 8 mana on turn 5, then 10 mana on turn 6, which is where you Toooooth. However Vernal Bloom on turn 4 gives you 10 mana on turn 5. Which do you think is better in that aspect?

Also, with the current meta having several green-based decks, almost often that Vernal Bloom could go against you. So I don't think it's also worthy in the sideboard.

Silent Arbiter is a great creature, provided your opponent doesn't have artifact or creature kill. But we all know red, black and green can handle artifact creatures. So Silent Arbiter may just be preventing the inevitable: that several other creatures could attack the next turn after the Arbiter dies. So in that respect, you should've just killed all of your opponent's creatures rather than stall. It may work a bit, but you're better off playing Oblivion Stone.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Im playtesting silent arbiter in sideboard for white weenie and it really impresses me. They have Hokori I have Silent Arbiter. It gives me enough time to set up for the win. White doesnt have creature kill

[Galvatron]

unles they sideboard in wrath HArazad and they can recover faster form wrath

[Raditz6x3]

WW has both Wrath and Otherworldly Journey. Arbiter will not last long enough to matter.

[No_Dice]

Hey Raditz, excuse my noobiness, but how come in many of your builds you run 2x sundering titan?

[Raditz6x3]

not noobiness cause most people only run one. Anyway, it's an expiriment of sorts, Titan/Kiki is my Number one Tooth Target so I always want to be able to get it, even if a Titan has already died. It's also useful Post board against B/G and a few other decks. Titan is their worst enemy, having more of a card that can flat out win the game is good, don't you agree??

[Jhemel]

When I was playing Toooooth, I had 2 Titans main. Just so I could hardcast one if Toooooth isn't around yet or it gets countered or killed, etc. After boarding, I put 2 more from the side, so that I have access to four Titans against B/G if ever they Extract my Toooooths. Turn four Titan is great against any two-color deck.

[Raditz6x3]

Most WW decks I've seen use Damping Matrix if it isn't MD it will be SB. That shuts T/V down pretty well. The problem with WW is that if your using A/A they use Jitte or Wrath to kill them, If you use T/V they use Matrix instead. It's like this weird little dance trying to figure out who has what.

Thunderstaff: I hadn't thought of that before, If my WW match gets any worse I may just try it. How effective is it against Sligh and G/R Spiritcraft??

Speaking of G/R Spiritcraft, is anyone else having problems with that deck?? I allways think I'm doing Ok and then I die. My life total usually goes something like 20,19,13,5,-11. The deck gets sick in a hurry. Lava Spike splicing a Glacial Ray is no laughing matter when it makes all their creatures get bigger too.

[Jhemel]

@ Raditz:

I never thought I'd hear you say that you're having problems with R/G Spiritcrap. It may be a fast deck, but really, does it kill consistently? Without Kodama South, the deck turns into a Frog deck. And if they do play the Kodama South, you can bet they need 1 more turn to start splicing, and we all know splice cards are quite mana-intensive. You have to rely on your Sakuras to block first, and it may be tempting to sac it early, but sometimes it could be better to just wait to block something. Wetness and Top could help you get the pieces to Toooooth faster. Although, I may never get the chance to test the match-up.

[Raditz6x3]

I never thought I'd have problems with it either, until I played against it. T1 Frosling, T2 Hearth Kami, T3 Kami of the Hunt, T4 South Tree, T5 Kodama's Might, Kodama's Might, Lava Spike, Glacial, oops your dead. Maybe the deck is just getting awesome draws but my record against it 2 wins and 6 loses. The other problem I find is that I don't have any effective Tooth Targets. A/A is my best bet but a couple of Spliced Rays and a Frostling will kill Abuanas and then next turn splice the Rays again.

I'll keep trying but I'm a little bewildered, I thought I'd do great agaisnt the deck and then I got my arse handed to me. Maybe I'm just overconfident.

[Jhemel]

Or maybe he was getting the better draws. I think this is where sideboarding T/V would be much better than A/A, since they can kill both. However, Kiki-Titan as a follow-up would really screw their mana and their chances of splicing.

And I think O-Stone can also help a bit.

[Raditz6x3]

I don't want to run T/V though, I want something that is good against aggro BEFORE I cast a Tooth, not after. I may be forced to run them though. The problem with Kiki/Titan is that he always has enough pressure out that I'll die even if he doesn't cast anything else. O well.

I'll try to get in a few more games tonight and get back to you.

[No_Dice]

Hmm.. O stone doesn't solve your problems? I would think a turn 4 O stone Pop Might do it if the hearth kami doesn't get to it.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Doesnt Trisk Vamps One sides wrath of God help you? Sundering Titan Kiki Jiki shuts their splicing and make them run into a wall when they attack.

[Hajime Saito]

WW runs shinning shoal thats a problem for T/V(If they somehow nuts into Journey Shoal Shoal and you run out of Counters) But its not to huge a problem.

You run all kinds of land search if WW has you down run Ghostly prison its only 2W and gives you life untill turn 6-7 at LEAST Add Sakura Tribe Speed Bumps and Witnesses into the mix and You will have plenty of time to tooth. OF course the problem here is the now G/w nature of the deck. But IM not sure thats even an issue as Tron is prefferd to Bloom. Then again This is second hand I don't play tooth I play against it. But I would like to beleive in the sanity of those I test with.

[Jhemel]

Vine Trellis may again warrant play in the main deck, if aggro becomes rampant. Just like back in the Onslaught days, Goblins were a problem for Toooooth and Vine Trellis helped a lot in preventing consecutive damage.

What to take out for them is probably the hard choice. Since Sakura and Rampant Growth are strictly better than Vine Trellis.

[_NamY_]

I´ve the TnT deck but I never played with it.I always preferd aff.mbc or ww.
Now with the bans i believe that TnT is the best deck.

Here is my deck list:

Lands

10 Forest
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's PowerPlant

Creatures

4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Mephidross Vampire
1 Triskelion
3 Vine Trellis

Spells

4 Tooth and Nail
4 Silvan Scrying
4 Reap an Sow
3 Rampant Growth
1 Rude Awakening
4 Chrom Mox
3 Senseis Devining Top

[_NamY_]

I´ve the TnT deck but I never played with it.I always preferd aff.mbc or ww.
Now with the bans i believe that TnT is the best deck.

Here is my deck list:

Lands

10 Forest
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's PowerPlant

Creatures

4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Mephidross Vampire
1 Triskelion
3 Vine Trellis

Spells

4 Tooth and Nail
4 Silvan Scrying
4 Reap an Sow
3 Rampant Growth
1 Rude Awakening
4 Chrom Mox
3 Senseis Devining Top

[HazaredTheOmega]

chrome mox... please tell me why its a choice in your deck *_*

[darkmindtone]

I would recommend you all check this out: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=162265#post162265 . This is the first major post-bannings tourney that results are up for. MUC dominated, while Tooth had the second best showing, which is what has been predicted. Nassif himself played an odd varient of MUC to 2nd place. The Tooth lists all had differences, but one thing that seemed consistant amoung most of the top versions was Kodama's Reach in the board for the most part. I'm guessing this card is there to simply combat Ponza and Sowing Salt in particular.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Thanks for the link darkmindtone

MUC won I see... But I dont think this shows that its the ruling deck... Many things are still under testing. Maybe another month the format will be defined again. Just keep tuned at the big tourneys :D

[Hyram]

I don't think that means we should discount MUC's power shackles is a powerful card, and with many people dropping hate from the MD, It becomes even better.

I have been playtesting a MUC deck and to tell the truth, it doesn't really have any bad matchups... and Disrupting shoal allows it to deal with threats even when it taps out for Magpie. Those of you who have seen the deck know as well, that Extraction is not a fix for MUC, IF you get past counters MUC just has too many win conditions that Cranial has to resolve several times and that doesn't even take into account stalking stones.

However Tooth, U/G, and B/G all have the biggest theats to MUC in the form of Troll Ascetic and Rude Awakening.

In my meta the guy playing UC doesn't play mono. He splashes black for Echoing decay MD, Hideous laughter and Cranial Side. Laughter can take out the trolls many a time and we all know that Decay and Laughter are big friends of Rude....

[keyblade]

Crazy Tooth players.
of course MUC is a killer, permission always is, but, MUC isn't really permission with half it's spells only soft counters and 4 of them just putting the card back in your deck.
I think with a Boseiju, which I feel fits in the main, and 8 ways to get it you shouldn't have a problem.
If they try to counter your land search they won't have it when you Tooth and if they don'e we won't let them counter it.
Tooth beats MUC hands down, turn 4 uncounterable Plow just wins.

[darkmindtone]

Crazy Tooth players.
of course MUC is a killer, permission always is, but, MUC isn't really permission with half it's spells only soft counters and 4 of them just putting the card back in your deck.
I think with a Boseiju, which I feel fits in the main, and 8 ways to get it you shouldn't have a problem.
If they try to counter your land search they won't have it when you Tooth and if they don'e we won't let them counter it.
Tooth beats MUC hands down, turn 4 uncounterable Plow just wins.


Look at the top MUC decks at the Paris Regionals. Look at all the cards made for Tooth: Bribary, Temporal Adept, Time Stop, opposing Bosieju's, and not to mention the single Evacuation in both boards (I've been on the recieving end of this before, and it's pretty deadly sometimes).

[Raditz6x3]

Looks like I just found room for a MD Boseiju, I knew MUC would be good but I didn't think it'd be that good.

[Jhemel]

Any blue-based, counter strategy would be good in a meta that's just about to take shape. Just like when Fifth Dawn was released, a lot of players played with U/W Control because it could handle almost anthing. Pretty soon mono-blue will be hated out as well, and just like what happened in the Ravager era, Toooooth is tier 1 together with a deck that acts differently than itself. And just like how Toooooth hate is different than Affinity hate, so will blue hate.

[HazaredTheOmega]

I wonder what a blue player will do...

I go first,

Turn 1 Forest, Birds or Paradise

Turn 1 Island, serum visions

Turn 2 Tron Choke.

[affinityplaya]

island island spectral shift? stalking stones nexus island shift? its called sbing which choke obviously is

[Raditz6x3]

Aplaya is right, choke isn't a solution. Troll Ascetic is better IMO as is North Tree although that is a little difficult to cast. Rude isn't a great solution either because of Evacuation.

[affinityplaya]

troll is great against mono blue, of course oblivioin stone would be good, north tree is good but then again can be briberied. genjus seem like they would work prettty well, splash red easily for boil, but then again can be spectral shifted, reap and sow their lands is always good, it seems like lands that can attack would be good against mono blue since truth/stone etc can't target lands, nexus stones ex. but tooth doesn't play either, which is why genju of the cedars seems like a good choice. i would play trolls main in place of old shamans genjus and then boseiju and north tree and choke sb

[Raditz6x3]

Genju's die to Spectral Shift too.

[affinityplaya]

new plan extract spectral shift, lol if they don't coutner it... wait till they tap out or use all their counters up then boil/choke them their is always boseiju, it dones' seem like mono blue will be that big of a deal for tooth

[HazaredTheOmega]

though choke buys you more time to play spells. Choke means 1 to 2 turns of free counter spell casting. And soembody runs spectral shift SB?... Sorry never knew anyone does...

[lotus petal]

tooth and nail is dying and its very easy to play I mean as long as you have the cards... its too simplex but it works

we need more grizzly bear decks

[vpreacher]

WTF???? Are you just trying to get your post count up? Because that's wrong and I don't think people should do it.

[Galvatron]

LOL tooth is becoming more risky to play with and it is not invincable. its creatures are vunerable to eradicate. Ive seen one build maining plow under. I also think the new format is foggy for most people because theres no solid deck lists for them to copy. I plan to take advantage of this while i still can.
@Lotus petal: whats with you and an the grizzly bear fetish? jeez every se has a GB varinent with another name slapped on it.

[HazaredTheOmega]

whats grizzly bears?

[Hajime Saito]

though choke buys you more time to play spells. Choke means 1 to 2 turns of free counter spell casting. And soembody runs spectral shift SB?... Sorry never knew anyone does...

Spectral shift has long been the Choke Boil Genju answer of choice among MUC players. Since Nassif took MUC to the top in France the hate will come Spectral shift is the answer to the hate. I'd be warry of playing Choke if there is t(w)o much mana open across the table.

To Add: How do Tooth players feel about playing against MUC? IS it good/bad match up? What cards don't you like? Ect.

[vpreacher]

Tooth's strategy should be to drop land and cast spells. Hmmm, sounds complicated. Seriously, Tooth has more threats than blue can handle. And god forbid one of your land searches isn't countered. Here comes Boseiju and the game just went from bad to worse. As long as you don't walk right into an evacuation you should be ok. After board pull out your big threats, slap in a couple ascetics, your other reap, mindslavers if they're not main and continue the beats. As a Mono-U player Tooth is my least favorite matchup. As a Tooth player I don't mind Islands at all.

[Raditz6x3]

Tooth may be MUC's worst matchup but that isn't saying much because MUC doesn't have any truely bad matchups. If you think you can just "outspell" MUC your in for a rude awakening when you play against someone that is good with the deck.

Tooth and MUC are my two favorite standard decks. I can tell you from expirience that MUC is not a "good" matchup for Tooth. AND the Tooth is not a "bad" matchup for MUC.

Boseiju will not save you by itself. MUC runs Temporal Adept, Boomerang and/or Psycic Overload specifically for Boseiju.

Your are extremely arrogant, come back down to earth and realize that it isn't as simple as casting spells and droping Boseiju.

[Galvatron]

whats grizzly bears?2/2 for 1g
RAD: thoothis a difult matchup for MUC but not the worst if the build is right ti should be easy for THe MUC player ti swing the in his faver

[whitedawncazy12345]

grizzely bears is a 2/2 bear its not that good really

[vpreacher]

Your are extremely arrogant, come back down to earth and realize that it isn't as simple as casting spells and droping Boseiju.


Actually it is. I'm not saying you can't lose, but I am saying your strategy isn't that complicated from the Tooth side of the board. The Mono-U player has far more decisions to try to make and therefore screw up. I said Tooth was blue's least favorite matchup, hardly an auto loss. And that when playing Tooth I didn't mind seeing Islands, I never said, "Yes, I win." Stop putting words in my mouth. As for being arrogant, maybe I am, but I was just making a point.

[cricketHunter]

Is it just me or would Tel-Jilad Chosen be a headache for MUC?

[CelestialChild]

I've had some experience with play Tooth, but not all that much since Champions came out. What would you think of either SB or MD Natural Affinity with the Meph/Trisk combo? Kill all their lands, instantly, without harming your own. Never to be used against a black deck unless they are tapped out, but not bad.

[keyblade]

@criketHunter:MUC would laugh at Tel-Jilad Chosen when they play a Magpie.

@CelestialChild: The one sided Armageddon sounds tempting, but, Natural Affinity is dead other than that.

[cricketHunter]

And they are going to play magpie before turn 6? I wouldn't mind that at all.

[No_Dice]

Only problem with that armageddon idea is that if you don't haev T/V and you want to swing with your lands, they might consider it favorable to trrade land for land.

[Raditz6x3]

Natural Affinity has the same problem as Rude: Evacuation.

[cricketHunter]

Natural Affinity is symmetric though, Evacuation would certainly get very scary for the opponent as well.

But even in this case you restart the game ensuring the Blue player will never miss a land drop. That's not a very good postition to be in.

[Raditz6x3]

Ok nevermind, I'm not all here at the moment.

[dude5617]

I just read this entire forum cause I just found out about the new forum hehe. I posted my decklist on the old forum but I will post it again beacuse I would like to get input in case anyone on these new forums hasnt seen it. I know earlier we discussed how tooth is a combo deck and therefor should try to "ignore" the opponent and try to get tooth out as quickly as possible. I am still testing the U/G tooth but i have had success with it so far. I will probably make many changes along the way. I don't "ignore" the opponent, i know that may seem counter productive but it seems to be working for me.

There are soo many ways tooth can be beaten before a tooth resolves. B/G rock can usually get a plow under off before u can tooth... setting you back two turns and allowing them to set up for deathcloud. A manaleak can save u from that land you need for a next turn tooth by stopping a stone rain. Crainal Extraction, which goes of turn 3 or 4 is also countered. They amy do another but you stop the cranial for your beastly creatures which you can easily find with top. Bribery will not resolve keeping u from an early death against MUC. The list goes on. Top is the key, as well as sakura, top can usually nets me a counter if I dont have one already and sakura for the blue land. Well here is my list.

Lands:
8- Forests
2- Island
1- Boseiju
4- powerplant
4- tower
4- Mine

Creatures:
4- Sakura
3- Eternal Witness
1- Darksteel Colossuss
1- Platinum Angel
1- Leonin Abunis
1- Duplicant
1- Kiki-Jiki
1- Sundering Titan

Spells:
4- Sylvan Scrying
3- Reap and Sow
4- Mana Leak
2- Condescend
3- Mindslaver
4- Tooth and Nail
3- Sensei's Divining Top
1- Rude Awakening

SB:
3- Oblivion Stone
1- Triskilion
1- Mephidross Vampire
2- Creeping Mold
2- Viridian Shaman
4- Plow Under
1- Rude Awakening
1- Sundering Titan

[airgaps]

about the lists of the paris regionals (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=162265#post162265)... what do you think about the tooth sb ? against LD ? Almost all of them played kodama's reach and vine trellis but... why not playing the Sacred ground ? Isn't it a best choice? I play with 2 city's MD , 1 plains MD, 2 talismans (WG)..is that enough?

[HazaredTheOmega]

My matchup with every MUC build is a mess... for them. I have enver lost to a MUC build before. We just have so much stuff they have to counter. Even a solemn and a witness in play is tough for them to deal with. I main deck boseiju and thats pretty much auto win game one. Game two I side out collosus and other bribable guys and put some hate. Win with rude awakening or weenie beats. Tooth is far superior to MUC in my opinion.

Plays that wreck MUC are when using T&N-

drop creatures witness and solemn- shackles? tap out = T&N

slaver = must be countered or they lose all their counters

tooth and nail during first game, second turn = quash but thats all right.

rude awakening

reap and sow destroy their lands. Yep it works much better. you more or less will still go online. This wrecks their tempo.

Sylvan scrying, flash a tron piece before doing so :P, this will make them think your going to go online real soon and counter the scrying. Find a boseiju and go abuse it if he resolves it. At this point early game if he casts psychic overload or the crap, he taps out, go cast a threat next turn.

MUC has at the least 12 counters and only half of them are hard counters. Your mana base can make up the difference.

4 Reap and Sow
4 Sylvan Scrying
2-3 Mindslavers
4 T&N
4+ Hardcastable Utility
4 Witness
1-2 Rude Awakening
4 Solemns(If you run them)

Most of your spells are threats to them and with divining top to find them you can push hard enough to resolve a threat that could wreck MUC.

[UAHcardplayer]

I've been reading this board for a while, and I need someone to critique my build.

12 urzatron
11 forest
1 Boseiju

4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
2 Sundering Titan
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Platinum Angel
1 Duplicant

4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Reap and sow
3 Sensei's top
4 Tooth and nail
3 Oblivion stone
2 Mindslaver
2 Rude Awakening
Any constructive imput would be appreciated

[HazaredTheOmega]

Your build is pretty solid, its pretty much okay :D, I have no complaints whatsoever

[darkmindtone]

In light of the format getting a little bit of definition, I have worked on my deck to end up here:

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Eternal Witness
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Mephidross Vampire
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant

4 Tooth And Nail
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Reap And Sow
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Plow Under

4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Mine
1 Okina, Temple To The Grandfathers
10 Forest

S/B:
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Mindslaver
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Plow Under
1 Bosieju, Who Shelters All

My concerns are that I don't know if the Angel combo is worth it anymore in these times of Jitte and Wrath in the board of WW. The combo isn't really used against many/any other decks. Those slots could be a fourth Oblivion Stone and a third Titan. My problem is also that I have no way to deal with a resolved Damping Matrix or any other troublesome artifacts that I may have to deal with. Creeping Mold was in my board previously, but I had to cut that for assistance cards for my two hardest matchups: MUC and Ponza. Trolls are great versus both, while Reach is French tech versus Ponza. Slaver has always been great versus U-based control.

I personally don't like Rude Awakening, as it is usually very risky versus the decks you pack it for with Cranial Extraction and Quash. Black runs Echoing Decay/Hideous Laughter, while Blue runs Evacuation to combat Rude.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Abunas Angel is your insurance... What do you do when your down to 1 life and you tooth? Never udnerestimate the combo, its much better than main deck trisk vampire.

Rude awakening is powerful, one it can untap your lands. Its a secondary win condition. You dont rely on it all the time. If you face MUC board it out then if your afraid of evac. It gets you out of hokori lock. Black can only kill around 2 of your lands via decay. And mostly black is always tapped out casting creatures and disruption so hideous laughter isnt much of a big deal

[Inkaras]

What do you think of this list:

10 forests
1 Boseiju
4 mine
4 plant
4 tower
1 green temple

4 tribe elders
4 Soleumns
1 Kiki Jiki
1 Titan
1 Trike
1 Vamp

4 Scrying
4 reaps
3 tops
4 O stones
3 E witness
4 Tooths
2 Naturalize

SB:
4 plow
2 Colossuss
1 Duplicant
2 Titan
2 Naturalize
4 Troll Ascetic

SB needs work I know. This did rather well for me last week loosing only to mono U because of 4x time stops. Also I don't play the A team because I rarely go for them and they are so easily killed with all the bounce / removal.

[vpreacher]

Try running one viridian shaman or zealot main, so you can tutor for it if something troublesome like a matrix or fecundity hits the board. I prefer the zealot just becaue he's more versatile, but eithed one is not bad.

[Raditz6x3]

I perfered the Zealot too, until I needed to kill a Damping Matrix. Doesn't work to well, I going to switch back to Shaman.

[keyblade]

@darkmindtone + Inkaras: I don't see the point of only playing 3 Eternal Witness. Every green deck has 4, why not Tooth?

[Raditz6x3]

I only run three because in was the easiest card to cut. I'm rearranging my deck right now, if I find the room I'd put in the fourth but it isn't as important as some of the other stuff.

[Hyram]

Hey Hazared do you have a link to your build or something? I would be interested in looking at it.

IMO 11tron is the way to go, as Raditz pointed out in the other thread it just gives you another slot and ups your probablity for drawing into the peice you need.

I run 3 witness's just because like top when you run 3 you run into them more often than you need them, and if you really need them three is enough to draw into them

[Inkaras]

I run 3 witness because I normally don't want to see it to early for one and secondly I only have 3.... :rolleyes:

Getting another is not a problem but what to cut? also is it right to be splashing another color? I tried black and it wasn't to thrilling....

[NuOnDaNet]

i haven't played Tooth for awhile but i was thinking: whaddya think about putting in Crystal Shard for those times when you're waiting to topdeck a Tooth and Nail? with all the mana you have floating about you wouldn't need to have a blue mana source, just use Urza's Tower or something to activate. you could return Eternal Witness to grab cards from your graveyard, return Solemn Simulacrum (if you play them) to grab lands, return Viridian Shaman for recurring artifact hate, or it could even act as a pseudo-Kiki-Jiki if you had Sundering Titan in play (cast, opponent loses 2 lands, bounce back Titan, recast, opponent loses another 2 lands). might even help stall out an aggro deck by having your opponent keep recasting stuff. and of course it helps protect your creatures too. thoughts?

[affinityplaya]

every vesrion of tooth and nail deck i see seems to play tron over post, but is tron really better? im assuming that people find it better because it is more consistent, but it is also affected so much more by sowing salt, and also it makes it harder to get green lands all the time, while post can be just as quick as it



post version

1 forest birds

2 post scrying for post

3 post reap for post

4 post not neccesary but would get mor mana or just tooth w/ 11 mana out and have more stuff to play,

or post
forest sakura
post reap
post tooth

have more to say but my comp keeps freezing

[Raditz6x3]

WTF, Diskdrive had a totally legitament post in here somewhere, I read it this morning. but it's gone now.

MODS: I can understand banning him ASAP (although I still don't think it's right) but please stop deleting his on topic posts. He is one of the smarter players here and has a lot of ideas that could prove invaluable in the future.

[silverwolf727]

I have been playing the 12post version of tooth and nail for a while and the reason people play the tron is that it lets you tooth a turn sooner then the post version does and because the posts come into play tapped. I'm currently testing the tron but I do like the 12 post version as I don't have birds to smooth out not drawing a second G source.

[dude5617]

Here is my new tooth build, please crtique... its U/G post tooth.
I am considering taking out the 3 oblivion stones from the main board and putting them on the side board. I would then run 12 forests and 1 extra fabricate.

Lands: 17
10- Forest
2- Island
1- Boseiji
4- Cloud Post

Creatures:17
4- Sakura Tribe Elder
3- Eternal Witness
3- Vine Trellis
1- Sundering Titan
1- Darksteel Colossus
1- Kiki Jiki
1- Platinum Angel
1- Mephidross Vampire
1- Duplicant
1- Leonin Abunis

Spells: 26
4- Tooth and Nail
4- Sylvan Scrying
3- Reap and Sow
3- Mindslaver
3- Oblivion Stone
3- Mana Leak
2- Condescend
2- Fabricate
2- Sensei's Divining top

Yes this is counter tooth, fabricate helps a lot when you don't have a tooth and need a threat or tooth was extracted. yea so please leave comments thanks! :-p

[Falling-Star]

I might be going blind or you just missed it but your not running any trisk's and your running the vampire. No point running vampire without trisk to go with it.

Anothering thing , you may be post but only 17 lands I'm pretty sure is a death trap, and you've cut back on your search, your going to be having trouble assembling enough land for anything, let alone having enough land in hand off the start. Affinity didn't need land and they ran 18 land, ya you have search but you need a lot more land than they did.

Blue Tooth should be dead the stategy of T&N and countering spells is so different and requires so many different early game requirements that your consistancy on both is gone, you won't now what kind of a game your going to have, set up for the early T&N but draw nothing but counters or vise versa. And only having 17 land means both really won't work, MUC runs like 26 land and on average T&N runs at least 22-24 land.

[keyblade]

Falling-Star is definitely right about the land, 22 minimum.
You need 4 Birds and no Vine Trellis in a 2 color tooth deck.
You should actually lose most of the utillity Tooth targets and cut it to just Colossus, Kiki, and Hoverguard Sweepers (This card has always been amzing when it could be hard cast)
For this too really be counter tooth you need to start with 4 Mana Leak and 4 Condescend.
Thirst for knowledge beats the hell out of fabricate and you want atleast 3 tops, maybe 4 with TfK.
You want need four witness to make this deck better.
Oblivion Stone is much more important than Slaver.

Finally, you should just play Mono-Green Tooth, it's better.

[vdogmfrk]

Raditz: I read that you said you wanted to switch back to shaman...I highly recommend it also because of damping matrix. Have you considered maindeck extractions? I think it could work, I mean it's never dead.

Also, I think that if burn gets big in the meta, angel/abunas will still be in the md, and trisk/vamp won't really be used, except maybe in the SB. However, the problem with trisk/vamp is also that matrix shuts it down.

I'm not sure if naturalize would make the cut or not...but I guess it depends on the amount of room there is. We still got o stone and shaman.

[airgaps]

hi guys! Yesteday I played this tourn in my country with the top ranking players in it (Colombia) and some of the top players of Ecuador. I played Tooth with a 5-1-1 result!. The draw was in the last round agianst a ponza just for convenience and the lost well, it was in the finals. he had so much good luck (UG deck with cranial in sb) ..in game 1, he plowed me 4 times (2 plows mixed with etrnal and echoing truth); in game 2 (turn 4) he tapped to cranial my tooth so next turn i dropped my sundering titan and gg; game 3 again three consecutive plows..bad luck !! jeje !

During the first 6 rounds I bet a WW, a MUC (thankis to boils and mindsalvers !!!), a Mono green (with beacons,etc MD and cranial in SB), UW control with scepters, and a TNN.. and draw agiainst my friends Ponza.

Anyway thsi is my list, any commets preciated:

Qty Name
// Lands
7 Forest
2 City of Brass
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 Urza's Mine
3 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Plains
//\\
// Creatures
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Sundering Titan
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Leonin Abunas
4 Eternal Witness
2 Vine Trellis
1 Duplicant
2 Viridian Shaman
//\\
// Spells
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Tooth and Nail
3 Reap and Sow
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Mindslaver
2 Talisman of Unity
//\\
// Sideboard
1 Urza's Power Plant (when the MD boseiju isn't needed)
1 Duplicant (against MBC or anything with bribery or dragons)
1 Oblivion Stone (WW and creature decks)
1 Swamp
3 Cranial Extraction (Mirror and MBC)
1 Mountain
3 Boil (MUC)
3 Sacred Ground (LD never really used..never paired)
1 Plated Slagwurm (MUC..bye bye shaceles ..echoes..etc..)

Anyway after that experience in decide to change my SB to the following:


1 Duplicant
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Swamp
4 Cranial Extraction
1 Mountain
3 Boil
3 Sacred Ground
1 Plated Slagwurm

I keep the sacred grounds because i have the feeeling that LD will be strong soon, and included the 4th cranial (- 1 power plant which was probably not such a good idea!) to be included against anything with plows !!!! I really hated them!!!
Well that's all I would love feedback and any experience you guys can share.

[vdogmfrk]

airgaps: How do the splashes work for you? I tried the extraction splash, and I rarely ever get the extraction in my hand (I run 3), so I wonder what it's like to run sacred ground, boil, AND extraction in the sb. Also, it sucks how you got plowed so many times...which brings me to my next point. Is there any way we can deal with the plow unders? It seems that the only possible solution is UG tnn, but that's counterproductive.

[affinityplaya]

to deal with the plow unders can't you just use a shuffle effect? sakura , reach , top , etc and shufle your deck making the plow under useless except the fact theat your losing some ladns out of it,b ut you can search for them right back which is better then losing two turns of drawing lands

[airgaps]

about the splashes... they worked fine atleast the red and black splash.. I never had the chance to try the white one, I never played agianst LD. They are different anyway, the red splash..well you don't really need to work extremely fast whiel the black one does. When speed is needed.. you have to include the 4 copies of the cranial and use the sylvan (if you have no sakuras in your starting hand) to look for a city (I run 2 MD). For the white one..mm... it is harder but I guess it's a matter of hand drawing.

About the plow under thing .. yeah.you are right perhaps just a shuffling effect should do.. still it slows you a lot !! The only problem is tehy plow the boseiju !! but you are right... I will have that in mind next time..

[One-of-chaos]

Dude you can't really splash in tron. Go with slavers over cranials. It is too much work to set a cranial up..

[ashin]

I played in a tournament today and made it to the t4 only to get beat by ponza. Here's what I ran:

// Lands
12 Forest
4 Urza's Mine
3 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
// Creatures
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
2 Sundering Titan
3 Eternal Witness
1 Leonin Abunas
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
// Spells
3 Plow Under
4 Reap and Sow
2 Rude Awakening
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Tooth and Nail
// Artifacts
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Sensei's Divining Top

I'll admit my first 3 rounds were rogue decks (a strange MBC, Ninjas, and Burning Bridges), but round 4 was B/G cloud, which I also handled.

4-0 going into top 8 and ponza just wrecks me.

Not bad for not having a sideboard ready I think. (Store didn't have any Cranials)

Also the plow unders are absolute gold. It won me several games throughout the day.

[vdogmfrk]

Dude you can't really splash in tron. Go with slavers over cranials. It is too much work to set a cranial up..

Yeah I know...I don't really like the splash, but cranial extraction is a powerful card. Also, Raditz runs it and somehow it works for him, like how march of the machines with a blue splash worked for discipleofterra in the old forums and how hum of the radix with no splash worked for diskdrive123 ;p.

For the people who splash black for extraction: Don't you ever have that situation where you don't have the spell you splashed for, yet you have the basic land for that spell in hand (e.g. hand without extraction but has swamp in it)? What do you do about those hands? Mull them? It already slows you down a turn playing an off color land, may as well mull into a hand with elder to search it when needed.

Also, when do you board the extractions in and what would you name for those matchups?

[One-of-chaos]

Well, I've used TNN quite a lot so I think that when I say extraction is too far off the beaten track its true. In all means splash for anything in post, or any other version but tron, but tron is all about speed. You throw off the tempo by having cards that you have to do work to use. Not really grade A.

[Eternal Wizard]

@vdogmfrk: I splash black for extractios in my build as well. Yes some times the land and the spell don't line up but that is true of many decks. I have 4 extrations and 5 easy ways to get the swamp (4 STE and Drawing it) or I can always search it up with scrying or reap if I really have to. My point is that it's not hard at all to have the mana when you have the extraction and adding one swamp to the deck does not mess up my mana (it takes boseiju's spot which I main). As for slowing tooth down a turn; if you're gonna be able to cast a turn 4-5 tooth than by all means don't take a turn to extract. However, I often can't get the perfect tooth draw and it's not a problem to cast an extraction or two while I put tron together or find T&N.

As for what to put it in against; I side it in vs. mirror, mbc, and anything running plow under or cranial extractions. As you can see it goes in a lot. I've given some thought to running it main but that does not work as what I take out varies to much from match-up to match-up.

That's my thoughts on ectraction, hope they help.

[airgaps]

The extraction works incredibly good!! Lets take for example the match against BG cloud... maybe they extract your tooth out, but when your turn comes to extact you go for the CLOUD or the kokusho or plows or BARTERS!! and its gg !!! once you drop your creatures they are unstopable!!!

In other matches G/X just go for the rude awakening..even if they plow you they will just slow you down but cannot really win because their "fast" killing form is the rude!

Against blue... meloku and bribery..

Against any deck..just go for their main winning condition...!!! (or any card that really kills you anyway!)

[airgaps]

@One-of-chaos: I know Tron is all about speed..but sometimes the TNN just isn't in your hand..so what do you do ?!!? Against a BG deck its GG!! they cloud you ..or drop a kokusho..or cranial your tooth !! and sometiems your creatures won't be enough !!

Against the UG with rudes..they splash for a cranial in SB..so what can you do ? your "fast" winning condition is gone... but theirs is still on !! Puting two creatures into game won't stop 10 or more lands attacking...

May be its a matter of "taste" but I like the security of disrupting their game... sometimes TNN isn't enough. Now all decks have a card that can kill even the A team in one card !!
(WW with wrath in side..etc... U/X with evacuation...etc..)

[dude5617]

Hey I took the advice you guys gave me and I remade my deck.... here is the new buiold please tell me what you think and all... Im still going with U/G counter tooth w/ cloudpost so hehe here it is.

Lands: 21
4- Cloudpost
4- Island
12- Forest
1- Boseiju

Creatures: 16
4- Sakura Tribe Elder
3- Eternal Witness
3- Vine Trellis
1- Darksteel Colossus
1- Sundering Titan
1- Kiki-Jiki
1- Duplicant
1- Platinum Angel
1- Leonin Abunis

Spells:23
4- Tooth and Nail
4- Sylvan Scrying
3- Reap and Sow
3- Mana Leak
3- Oblivion Stone
2- Fabricate
2- Condescend
2- Sensei's Divning Top

Side Board:
4- Plow Under
3- Mind Slaver
2- Creeping Mold
2- Viridian Shaman
2- Rude Awakening
1- Triskelion
1- Mephidross Vampire

Yea please leave tips n stuff

[No_Dice]

Maybe Mindslaver main deck to put those fabricate to some better usage?

[Wild Card]

Is Fabricate even needed? O. k. you can also fetch Angel, Titan or Colossus... I haven`t tested that build for a long time, but I would probably rather go with Serum Visions, Condescend and/ or Mana Leak and use Solemns instead of Vine Trellis.

[dude5617]

The reason i like fabricate is there are times when I don't have tooth and I need a threat. Fabricate gets anything I need thats why I like it, thirst for knowledge doesn't do that same wioth serum visions, I may try serum visions though cause of scry. Thirst is more like top... Plus if tooth is extracted or persecuted it gives a better chance of getting Dsteel or some other threat. I'll try to find room to put the mindslavers mainboard... gonna be hard tho hehe.

[vdogmfrk]

The extraction works incredibly good!! Lets take for example the match against BG cloud... maybe they extract your tooth out, but when your turn comes to extact you go for the CLOUD or the kokusho or plows or BARTERS!! and its gg !!! once you drop your creatures they are unstopable!!!

In other matches G/X just go for the rude awakening..even if they plow you they will just slow you down but cannot really win because their "fast" killing form is the rude!

Against blue... meloku and bribery..

Against any deck..just go for their main winning condition...!!! (or any card that really kills you anyway!)

The way you're saying it is that plow under should be extracted only against BG...but I think plow under is evil all the time, even in G/x, because UG could board in bribery and slowing us down would hurt. Then again, we'll probably have more than 4 lands by the time they plow under, and they won't hit the swamp because they don't think that we have another extraction.

[Krauz]

i think this is the most competitive deck of TaN give suggestion on Md and SB

1 Darksteel Colossus

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

1 Sundering Titan

1 Duplicant

1 Platinum Angel

1 Leonin Abunas

4 Eternal Witness

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder

2 Viridian Shaman



4 Tooth And Nail

4 Sylvan Scrying

4 Reap And Sow

2 Rude Awakening

2 Oblivion Stone

3 Mind Slaver

3 Sensei's Divining Top



4 Urza's Mine

4 Urza's Power Plant

4 Urza's Tower

10 Forest

60



Sideboard

4 Naturalize

1 Triskelion

1 Mephidros Vampire

4 Choke

4 Plow Under

1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

15

[Raditz6x3]

What I Extract:

TnN-Tooth, the rest depends on what you see but generally goes: Rude, Titan/Colossus

MUC- Don't waste your time I've been testing Extraction against them and it just doesn't do enough, if you Extract Meloku you'll die to man-lands. If you hit counters they have different ones. If you insist on playing Extaction against MUC the best targets are Hinder or Rewind, depending on the build Temporal Adept and Bribery are also good targets. However I recommend siding something other than Extractin against them.

U/G- Rude, Meloku then Plow.

B/G- Cloud, Kokusho then Plow


That's pretty much the only time I side in Extractions, some rogue decks are pretty suseptable to it too though (Alarm combos).

[airgaps]

Actually against Tooth (mirror) I would go for
-Tooth
-Mindsalver / eternal

The mindslaver is extremely powerfull in my last mirror I won just attacking with a viridian, an abunas and a witness after I mindslaved him 3 times in a row !!! (Thanks to the eternal jeje !)


Against MUC is better sideboarding the boils in stead of the cranial extractions..Raditz is right.. And by all menas include the extra duplicant so when they play bribery you can duplicate the collosus or anything they go for.

[One-of-chaos]

@One-of-chaos: I know Tron is all about speed..but sometimes the TNN just isn't in your hand..so what do you do ?!!? Against a BG deck its GG!! they cloud you ..or drop a kokusho..or cranial your tooth !! and sometiems your creatures won't be enough !!

Against the UG with rudes..they splash for a cranial in SB..so what can you do ? your "fast" winning condition is gone... but theirs is still on !! Puting two creatures into game won't stop 10 or more lands attacking...

May be its a matter of "taste" but I like the security of disrupting their game... sometimes TNN isn't enough. Now all decks have a card that can kill even the A team in one card !!
(WW with wrath in side..etc... U/X with evacuation...etc..)

Theres kind of 2 things 2 do. If you have stuff you can hardcast keep your hand. If you don't mulligan, you need a tooth. Then there's top which helps you out pretty good. I can usually get a tooth into my hand by turn 3 if I direly need to.

[BuddhaManFizz]

people stop living in sooo much fear of extraction....

you still have rude, chill...

i personally would fear the sowing salts...they make it very hard for like half you deck to not be dead cards...

:)

[Raditz6x3]

people stop living in sooo much fear of extraction....

you still have rude, chill...

i personally would fear the sowing salts...they make it very hard for like half you deck to not be dead cards...

:)
people please learn to read the posts...

we are talking about how we use Extraction, chill....

I personally would try to act like less of a moron... I know it's very hard but do think you could try...??

[One-of-chaos]

Any thing that disrupts the deck you fear. You just have to get around it. Personally I think TNN would have been banned if it wasn't for all the hate they realesed.

[Raditz6x3]

Any thing that disrupts the deck you fear. You just have to get around it. Personally I think TNN would have been banned if it wasn't for all the hate they realesed.
there is a difference between "fear", "The Fear" and "awareness". We should not fear, or Fear, Cranial Extraction, Sowing Salt, Quash, or even Bribery. We should be aware of their exsistence and the fact that they can severly hamper our attempts to win, however "fear" will cause you to make irrational decisions based on that fear. You have to find that happy medium between fear and concern. That way your not overly confident and you realize that certain cards are hard to deal with, but you don't have an irrational fear of them.

[NickWhiz1]

This is what I ended up running at FNM two nights ago. I had to make a few quick changes to it, since I hadn't played the deck for a while, so that's why it might look a little...weird.

4 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Sundering Titan
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Platinum Angel

4 Reap and Sow
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Tooth and Nail
3 Plow Under
3 Talisman of Impulse
2 Rude Awakening
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
9 Forest

4 Naturalize
3 Mindslaver
3 Oblivion Stone
2 Dosan, the Falling Leaf
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Plow Under
1 Sundering Titan

Given the chance, I would probably have redone this a little bit. Looking at both Mindslaver and Oblivion Stone in the sideboard seems really strange, and I would probably find room for one of them maindeck. However, I wouldn't know exactly what to take out.

Maybe I should take advantage of the Elders and the Talismans and use a White or Red splash for goodies like Sacred Ground, CoP: Red, or Boil?

[HazaredTheOmega]

Hey Hazared do you have a link to your build or something? I would be interested in looking at it.

IMO 11tron is the way to go, as Raditz pointed out in the other thread it just gives you another slot and ups your probablity for drawing into the peice you need.

I run 3 witness's just because like top when you run 3 you run into them more often than you need them, and if you really need them three is enough to draw into them

12 Tron
10 Forests
1 Plains

1 Darksteel Collossus
2 Sundering Titan
1 Kiki Jiki
1 Duplicant
1 Abunas
1 Angel

4 Eternal Witness
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Birds of Paradise

4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Reap and Sow

4 Tooth and Nail
2 Rude Awakening
2 Senseis Divining Top
2 Mindslaver


Im considering cutting a Witness and Solemn and a rude for 3 Plow unders.

My Sideboard changes time by time depending where I play at

My Sample SB shud be

3 Sacred Ground
3 Naturalize
2 Silent Arbiter
2 Scrabbling Claws
2 Choke
1 Boseiju
1 Triskelion
1 Vampire

Ok Update, I cut a Solemn, Reap and a Rude for 3 plow unders. 3 Reaps is enough? Sometimes I just use Reap to destroy lands, Plow under Pretty much does the same too. Cut a rude awakening because i run birds over Tribe elders.

[chaosbringer3000]

I've been checking out the Paris results. Anyone tried the Kodama's Reach in the SB? I guess they would go in against Ponza and possibly RG but can they really help against a turn 2 land destruction? What should we take out?

Also, all lists have Oblivion Stones main. Is that against Mono U with Magpie? I would think that against aggro, Angel/Abunas (which has seemingly dropped in popularity but is still serving me well) is all you need.

[vdogmfrk]

Question: About viridian shaman, is it safe to bump it down to 2? Or is 3 the perfect number for it? There are still artifacts we have to kill, so I'm not sure.

[airgaps]

I believe the reason for having oblivion MD is mainly the great number of aggro decks as you say, because the angel /abunas is not enough.

Against WW, for example, if you can play the tooth or an oblivion...play the oblivion over the angel.. they sb wraths or if they are very lucky they have in hand both purge and otherwordly,etc. The oblivion comes in also as a "time.giver" most of the time, while you Tooth. They are a must in any TNN deck (tron versions at least).

About the viridians..I belive two are enough because you still have the oblivions so you have like 4 or 5 artifact killlers! (plus the viridian is a blocker!!)

[HazaredTheOmega]

Drop the Shamans and take up the zealots. They are more flexible. And you can drop the zealot do beatdown and utilize it later.

[Raditz6x3]

Zealot can't kill a Damping Matrix, Shaman is better.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Shamans cant kill Enchantments :p.

Well it all depends on the meta game yet again >.<

[Raditz6x3]

True, but the artifacts in the format are much more powerful than the enchantments.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Zealot can kill it too you know :p

And wouldnt you want to kill that worship, Glorious anthem, Ghostly prison or maybe that hosing enchantment? :p

[Raditz6x3]

Why waste a Zealot when you can get the Worship, Anthem and all the creautures in one shot with a Stone???

[HazaredTheOmega]

Why not do that though with the artifacts? Though damping matrix hinder you to do that though.

It really depends on the meta. If people run ehavy enchantments in my area I go Zealot and Naturalize. If artifact heavy, Ill consider shamans

[vdogmfrk]

I believe the reason for having oblivion MD is mainly the great number of aggro decks as you say, because the angel /abunas is not enough.

Against WW, for example, if you can play the tooth or an oblivion...play the oblivion over the angel.. they sb wraths or if they are very lucky they have in hand both purge and otherwordly,etc. The oblivion comes in also as a "time.giver" most of the time, while you Tooth. They are a must in any TNN deck (tron versions at least).

About the viridians..I belive two are enough because you still have the oblivions so you have like 4 or 5 artifact killlers! (plus the viridian is a blocker!!)

What do we do if they board in wogs? They'll beat us down to like negative life and then cast wog and win.

Also, after I saw that article today by Jarod Bright...I thought about what to do about ld, plow unders, extractions, briberies and hand disruption. What exactly do we do about the hate? Deal with it? I've been playing tnn for a while now, but I think now is the time to be asking that question since more people are going to add hate to combat tnn.

[HazaredTheOmega]

check the new article at main page :D Toothing Tooth

[airgaps]

@vdogmfrk (http://forum.tcgplayer.com/member.php?u=27386) vbmenu_register("postmenu_93133", true); : That's why you need oblivion, to clean the table and then cast the tooth for titan and kiki and just destroy their game !! Include the 4 of them so it is a real option !!

[evilgenius410]

how does this deck stand against WW?

[affinityplaya]

what do you guyus think is the most consistet deck list right now? could someone post a list plz? thanks

[One-of-chaos]

how does this deck stand against WW?

how does it not?? If white weenie could kill us before we went off, don't you think everyone would be playing it? On a side note, in order to slow damage you have STE, witness (can kill mostly eveything it blocks), oblivion stone, and other builds run other creatures. (I use 3 troll acestic md.)
In this scenario, I think that trik/vamp is the way to go as you kill their guys and they can't play any more creatures until they get rid of 1 of those pieces. Then play another TNN, or witness a TNN back to finish him. I suppose attacking with T/V every turn for 7 isn't half bad, but it isn't a flashy way to win. (Get all your creatures out for a flashy finish)

[vdogmfrk]

how does it not?? If white weenie could kill us before we went off, don't you think everyone would be playing it? On a side note, in order to slow damage you have STE, witness (can kill mostly eveything it blocks), oblivion stone, and other builds run other creatures. (I use 3 troll acestic md.)
In this scenario, I think that trik/vamp is the way to go as you kill their guys and they can't play any more creatures until they get rid of 1 of those pieces. Then play another TNN, or witness a TNN back to finish him. I suppose attacking with T/V every turn for 7 isn't half bad, but it isn't a flashy way to win. (Get all your creatures out for a flashy finish)

Are you suggesting T/V only vs. white weenie, therefore making it sideboard only, while maindecking angel/abunas?

[HazaredTheOmega]

Trisk Vamp is sometimes shut off by Damping Matrix by WW. Angel Abunas is somewhat safer because tehy have to get you down to 0 or less and cast WoG. Trisk Vamp also ies of WoG

[Sirsoosage 234]

Trisk Vamp is sometimes shut off by Damping Matrix by WW. Angel Abunas is somewhat safer because tehy have to get you down to 0 or less and cast WoG. Tyou isk Vamp also ies of WoG
you are absolutely correct about this, most tooth decks have trouble with damping matrix, i also like the abunas angel combo better than the trike too. Jarod Bright had the right idea about the talismans and the heartbeat of spring in the sideboard.

[NuOnDaNet]

i'd prefer Vine Trellis over the Talismans. if you're afraid of LD (ie. Red decks) then you might as well have something that'll give you mana for the same cost, as well as potentially save you from an early Slith Firewalker. accelerates just as well to a turn 4 Tooth and Nail, and is hard for Red decks to kill too. if Black decks are gonna waste a removal spell on it then all the better for you.

[vdogmfrk]

i'd prefer Vine Trellis over the Talismans. if you're afraid of LD (ie. Red decks) then you might as well have something that'll give you mana for the same cost, as well as potentially save you from an early Slith Firewalker. accelerates just as well to a turn 4 Tooth and Nail, and is hard for Red decks to kill too. if Black decks are gonna waste a removal spell on it then all the better for you.

That is true in my opinion as well, except that I run wayfarer's bauble instead, it thins out the deck. However, my other search is the basic combination (4 elder, 4 reap, 4 scrying). The 2 bauble are for no green hands that happen to be otherwise.

[Jhemel]

Jarod Bright had the right idea about the talismans and the heartbeat of spring in the sideboard.

Jarrod was sleeping when he wrote that article.

Heartbeat of Spring, as he explained, was his answer to red's LD spells. But Heartbeat would only help red more to play early Sloggers/Kumano, and an active Kumano means that they can ping you for each Mountain that they have in play. Not an ideal "answer" to red, IMO.

And if he suggests that you also use Heartbeat aainst R/G LD, then it's even worse, as they can utilize all the excess mana to bring back the spell they need via Wetness a full turn earlier.

Against LD, the best solution so far is Kodama's Reach to ensure your land drops. Or you could go dumb and play Crucible of Worlds. Or you could go insane and splash white for Sacred Ground.

[mad`arab]

Jarod Bright had the right idea about the talismans and the heartbeat of spring in the sideboard.

Jarrod had nothing right...his report and everything was awful. I could pull a better decklist/analysis out of my @$$.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Jarrod was sleeping when he wrote that article.

Heartbeat of Spring, as he explained, was his answer to red's LD spells. But Heartbeat would only help red more to play early Sloggers/Kumano, and an active Kumano means that they can ping you for each Mountain that they have in play. Not an ideal "answer" to red, IMO.

And if he suggests that you also use Heartbeat aainst R/G LD, then it's even worse, as they can utilize all the excess mana to bring back the spell they need via Wetness a full turn earlier.

Against LD, the best solution so far is Kodama's Reach to ensure your land drops. Or you could go dumb and play Crucible of Worlds. Or you could go insane and splash white for Sacred Ground.

That means im Insane lol

[NuOnDaNet]

@ vdogmfrk:

howz Wayfarer's Bauble working out for you? i personally don't like it coz if i don't drop it first turn then i won't get that extra land till the third turn or later (since it costs 2 to activate). i'd much rather use Rampant Growth. although i guess an argument could be made for it if your starting hand doesn't have a green source.

[HazaredTheOmega]

if thats the case go solemn then *_*

[Raditz6x3]

Solemn can't get you a turn four Tooth, Bauble can.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Solemn can *_*

tron
tron
tron solemn
forest tooth

LOL

[avery61]

Guess I'm insane too. Dropping a turn two Sacred Ground has helped me out more than once. Kodama's Reach can be almost as good.

[Raditz6x3]

That requires drawing all three Tron peices, the odds of that happening are extremely small so I don't bother to count it as a possibility.

[Sirsoosage 234]

http://www.brainburst.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=23639
the tooth deck i play is similar to the deck i top 8ed at a jss with at gp columbus, the only difference is that i play kiki jiki over akroma and eternal witness and 3 tops over viridian shamman and talismans, I might add some talismans because they are quite good for casting abunas, i also cut 1 oblivion stone.

[avery61]

There's an article that gives you the formula on the odds of drawing a paticular card. I think it's worth reading.
http://www.brainburst.com/db/article.asp?ID=4343

[vpreacher]

I've found running 4 elders and either 2 or 3 trellis' is the best way to go. You're almost assured an early blocker as well as a mana accellerator.

[HazaredTheOmega]

That requires drawing all three Tron peices, the odds of that happening are extremely small so I don't bother to count it as a possibility.

Im not a fan of bauble, it conflicts with my Sylvan Scrying >.<. Talismans too can get you out of mana screw. Solemns a blocker and drawer and gives u turn 5 T&N

[vdogmfrk]

@ vdogmfrk:

howz Wayfarer's Bauble working out for you? i personally don't like it coz if i don't drop it first turn then i won't get that extra land till the third turn or later (since it costs 2 to activate). i'd much rather use Rampant Growth. although i guess an argument could be made for it if your starting hand doesn't have a green source.

I run 2 bauble, and it's pretty good in my opinion. I used to run 4 because I couldn't get enough elders on time, but even now 2 is just as good.

[mad`arab]

bauble and jens are both cards you shouldn't be thinking of for tooth right now...the deck is solid without them.

[One-of-chaos]

Yes but matrix is usually boared, you have naturalize for that...

[keyblade]

The only reason Buable was ever run was because some people think they won't have a forest by turn 2.
Talsimans (Talismen?) are the best colorless fixers I think. Solemn is sould, just really slow.

[Sirsoosage 234]

bauble and jens are both cards you shouldn't be thinking of for tooth right now...the deck is solid without them.
jens is good but bauble is just plain bad.

[HMSnoopy]

Bauble is excellent against ponza as it if fast enough to slip under the ld which jens cannot, and is cheep enough to use to keep ld from denying the tooth deck green mana and then casting sowing salt to break the tron.

The tron tooth decks also usually run approx. 12 green sources so having one in the first two turns is not a given, and we all know that that is a major problem if you get green hosed.

The prevelance of jitte in the format will lead to more md artifact hate by the green based aggro and aggro control decks, mainly in the form of viridian shaman. Shamans in the main makes talisman invalid as the colorless accelerator in tooth, because we cannot afford to let the beacon green decks have avalanche riders as well as beacon and troll. the bauble avoids this problem by not needing to stay in play to do it's job, but still being fast enough to be relevant.

On paper bauble seems like a subpar choice, but the way the environment is shaping up it may be the best choice due to it's ability to dodge the hate.

[Jhemel]

That means im Insane lol

Yes you are. Boy, you catch on pretty quick.


Guess I'm insane too. Dropping a turn two Sacred Ground has helped me out more than once. Kodama's Reach can be almost as good.

More than once meaning what? How consistent does that happen? With 12 colorless lands and 10+ green mana sources, the chances of drawing a white source on your opening hand is exactly 0.01667%.


On paper bauble seems like a subpar choice, but the way the environment is shaping up it may be the best choice due to it's ability to dodge the hate.

I actually like Bauble over Talisman. Random splash damage will continue to hurt as long as there are artifacts played in Standard.

[One-of-chaos]

Jhemel is right on the bauble vs. talisman issue. Bauble can get you a forest if you have 2 tron in hand. Its also 3 mana total. Talisman while 2, hurts to much. You wouldn't survive against any red deck long enough to cast TNN

[dude5617]

[QUOTE=NuOnDaNet]i'd prefer Vine Trellis over the Talismans. [QUOTE]

yea vine trellis owns.... great against aggro decks of all kind and it is a great mana accelerater

[warreneng]

Is there a concensus about whether or not TronTooth should splash for things like Cranial Extraction? I play monogreen, I love it for its consistency, but I worry that I'll be wrecked at States by a Cranial in the mirror...opinions?

[NuOnDaNet]

@ warreneng:
Raditz6x3 has a pretty solid list that splashes black for Cranial Extraction. 1 x Swamp and 3 x Cranial Extraction in the sideboard, with 1 x City of Brass and 2 x Rampant Growths/4 x Sakura-Tribe Elders (i believe) maindeck to help fetch the Swamp.

General:
anyone have any opinions about sideboarding 1 x Mountain and 3 x Boil? G/U decks have Creeping Mold or Reap and Sow to kill the Boseiju, Who Shelters All. MUC also have their own copies. then (mebbe) we could use the G/R Talisman and be able to hardcast Kiki-Jiki (and the Boil of course).

i just hate going against blue-based decks and really wish we had some good instants that we could cast at their EOT to make 'em tap out during our main phase.

[Raditz6x3]

30111

I'm loving the SB Trolls, they help out against MUC, Sligh and even Ponza. If Ponza gets big I may borrow some "tech" from the French and run Kodama's Reach instead of the Extractions. But that also hinges on G/X and Tooth becoming less popular.

If you Splash for Extraction don't bother trying to use it against MUC, it doesn't help enough.

[Sirsoosage 234]

it is helpful to run extraction against mono blue, it is just that it should only be played if you play black in the maindeck or have a swamp md and plan on sideboarding it in vs control and combo a lot.

[cricketHunter]

Just got first at a little FNM type thing (on tuesday - TNM I guess). Here's the decklist:

//24 Land
11 Forest
1 Okina
4 Urza's Mine
3 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Powerplant
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

//12 Creatures
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan

//24 Spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Reap and Sow
4 Tooth and Nail
2 Rampant Growth
2 Plow Under
2 Oblivion Stone
3 Mindslaver

//15 Sideboard
SB:1 Urza's Tower
SB:1 Leonin Abunas
SB:1 Platinum Angel
SB:1 Darksteel Colossus
SB:1 Oblivion Stone
SB:3 Kodoma's Reach
SB:3 Fireball
SB:3 Boil
SB:1 Mountain

I was expecting there to be some ponza and some MUC. There wasn't. My sideboard choices were in this regard poor. (Like Boseiju MD) Two rounds I faced MD Cranial Extraction but never felt I needed to bring in the fireballs. I brought in the colossus once, in the finals, but didn't need it. A/A came in once vs. WW but was not needed.

Matches:

RD1 (2-1 Win) Red Zone 2k5

This was an aggressive deck R/G/B deck running trolls, birds, swords, jittes and (SB?) Extractions.

GM 1
I decided to try a slow hand with no mana acceleration (I was nervous - I hadn't played type II in a while) but a plow under and three witness (?!). He led off with Hearth Kami and then on his 4 turn equiped the Jitte. The jitte quickly got ugly, and I was very, very dead.

GM 2
I sideboarded out Boseiju for the SB Tower (I did this every match... sigh). He got a weaker hand and got no pressure before I Tooth & Nailed turn 5. He waited until I said - Kiki, Titan - and then conceded.

GM 3
He got some early pressure followed by Cranial Extraction. He named Tooth and Nail. I was going to go off the next turn. I delayed his rush using an O Stone, killing a bird and a hearth kami, and tapping a Troll. He persecuted naming green and caught me with 5 green cards in hand. Ouch. I used a SDT to stack Titan on top, with a Duplicant on cleanup detail. He conceded.

RD 2 (0-2 Loss) Honded+Obliterate

I didn't think this would be a hard matchup. I was very wrong.

GM 1
Mindslaver and Tooth sat dead in my hand as acceleration refused to show up. I knew he was running reap and sow and was operating under the philosophy that he who entwines first wins. He entwined first. I used my Reap and Sow (foolishly I might add) as turn 4 LD (I had gone first) but he still won the land race. He obliterated with Hondens and I died.

GM 2
His Sideboarding changed his deck from Hondens to Green Land destruction + Honden + Obliterate. It was an ugly game. I had all the makings of a good hand without 1 forest. I was on the draw so I kept. I saw the same three land all game (They kept leaping on top of the library for some reason). STE could have gone the distance on me by the end of the game, but thankfully Kumano came out and ended it quickly.

Yikes. Witness + Reap and Sow + Plow Under hurts.

RD 3 (2-1 Win) White Weenie

GM 1
He wins the die roll. Plains, Hound, go. Ugghh. His hound runs at me with a +2/+0 axe next turn and then a STE chumps. I summon an eternal witness trades with the Hound but a Leonin (WW 2/2 flier) gets a Bonesplitter in each hand to take me from 12 - 6 - dead.

GM 2
He brings early pressure but I get an early tooth, after an O-Stone, for Kiki-Jiki duplicant. He drops some equipment but keeps passing the turn. I keep my guys at home, fearing the Shoal. He drop greaves, and baits me with a Savanna Lion, with lots of equipment waiting to jump on board. I sigh tap my Kiki removing the Lion. He drops a flier and equips with greaves and Jitte(?). I Tooth for Viridian Shaman the next turn, he concedes.

GM 3
He attacks for 6 on turn 3 by dropping grafted war gear on a flier after his third (?!) first turn hound. I lucksack into a shaman which kills the war gear and the flier and keeps the Hound at Home. When I tooth for Kiki/Duplicant it ends very quickly.

Top 4 (2-0 Win) Green\Black Control

GM 1
He extracts on turn 4. I have the titan in hand and his lands disapear. I win.

GM 2
He drops a Stabwiskers and begins the discard. I acclerate but he extracts Tooth. However his lands have been Boseiju(?!), City of Brass, Forest and Swamp and Okina. I Plow his Forest and Swamp. I use Sylvan Scrying to play an Okina copy. I throw land destruction at his basic land. Finally I mindslaver but he doesn't have a land to play the extraction in hand. Instead I rend flesh the now flipped stabwhiskers. He gets the lands he needs and extracts the Titan. I use a SDT to find an eternal witness. It procedes to beat his pain land reduced life down to four before he can rend flesh it without losing to his own lands. I find two STE and they swing for the win.

This is the first type II tournament I've played since Champions became legal. I've got to say Cranial Extraction isn't nearly as scary anymore.

Finals Honden Obliterate (again!)

GM 1

He's playing many, many basic land types. I tooth for Colossus. WIN.

GM 2

The green LD is back and it catches me with a hand that once again needs a forest (MUST learn to mulligan). It's an ugly game that sees him obliterate with a green honden on the table. I don't win.

GM 3

This time his LD misfires and he hits a tower when i have 4 mana. I have a replacement in hand. I use it to reap and sow for the missing urzatron piece. I have Tooth in hand and he doesn't have anymore LD. He passes me back the turn and concedes.

Yay.

Quick summary of the lessons I learned:

In nearly every match I was happier to have O. Stone than Mindslaver. However, MUC and U/G did not show up.

DC definitely doesn't have a place in the MD. He's cool, but redundant.

1 x Viridian Shaman saved my butt. I talked about the WW match up, but I believe he also destroyed some equipment in my first match as well.

The Kodoma's reaches don't change anything versus mono green LD - I brought them in for the finals, but they were just Rampant growths. I imagine against red they would rock, but against green they just don't do enough.

If you don't see green - MULLIGAN! Every match I tried it I lost.

Casting Plow Under is often underwhelming, being hit by Plow Under sucks - a lot.

Don't laugh at Hondens.

I know this is probably not all that exciting to most of you, but I thought there might be some lessons to be learned from this tournament.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Raditz when do you board in the ascetics and what do you take out? :p

[cricketHunter]

I can't speak for Raditz (who can?), but I imagine DC (and his huge "Bribe me" sign) comes out. Or maybe, you keep him in to create an 11/11 duplicant...

I think the A team probably doesn't really do much against MUC. Those probably come out.

That leaves the question mark as the last troll. Which would you rather resolve against MUC - O. Stone or Plow Under?

Does Cranial Extraction do anything against MUC? Is it another must counter card?

[HazaredTheOmega]

Cranial doesnt do anything to MUC

Plow under over O stone

[cricketHunter]

Cranial doesnt do anything to MUC

It's a sad day when MUC fears the $20 rare less than Mind Rot.

[Avatar of Style]

yeah, this is true. It is a sad day indeed.

[Tussin Dreams]

4 Tooth
3 Rude Awakening
4 Eternal Witness
2 Mind Slaver
3 Top
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Reap and Sow
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Colossus
1 Kiki
1 Platinum Angel
1 Abunas
1 Vampire
1 Triskelion

12 Urzatron
11 forest
1 Okina

This is my version of tooth. I have found that the tops are just amazing. I played against a version of tooth that swaps the tops for plow unders and I won 5 out of six games. The tops are a must and his plow unders barley did anything. I anso think that the vamp/trisk combo should be main board, it completly obliterates most aggro decks and makes it impossible for them to win. Has anyone ever thought about putting Dosan or Defense Grid in their sideboard in addition to boseiju? They combat more than just counterspells - namley e-truth, anyone have any opinions?

[HazaredTheOmega]

Abunas Angel does the same to aggro decks *_*. Trisk Vamp cant save you from pulse of the forge. And Trisk Vamp doesnt work under damping matrix

[One-of-chaos]

Against MUC control has anyone thought of an alterante win condition aside rude? I dunno like a creature swarm? I don't know how but when I was briberied twice in a game, first kiki, then my dup. Its hard to say that TNN is relaible.

[Raditz6x3]

I can't speak for Raditz (who can?),

well I can, obviously.

against MUC:

+1 Titan
+2 Boseiju
+4 Troll

-1 Colossus
-1 Angel
-1 Abunas
-1 Kiki
-3 Oblivion Stones or Plow Under (still testing)

That better???

[cricketHunter]

So you put the two Boseijus in without taking out any land? Hmmm... I guess the philosophy here is to make your land drops even if your acceleration is countered.

Neat.

I don't think I would have thought to do that.

[Raditz6x3]

I don't side out land because Boseiju is not a land it is an artifact.

[Wild Card]

I don't side out land because Boseiju is not a land it is an artifact.

Pardon? Can you explain that or was it just a joke I don`t understand?

[HazaredTheOmega]

what if titan gets bribed raditz?

[Raditz6x3]

I don't side out land because Boseiju is not a land it is an artifact.

Pardon? Can you explain that or was it just a joke I don`t understand?

Yep, contrary to what the type line says, Boseiju is an artifact, just like Maze of Ith. Except Boseiju makes mana too. In order to get the maximum benifets and the lowest consequenses from using Boseiju you can't look at it as a land. When you do, you think of it as a mana source. Yes it makes mana, no it is not a mana source. If you think of it like that you'll make bad decsisions based on Boseiju giving you mana.

I swear to, Boseiju is not a land, don't think of it as one and you will thank me for it.


Hazard: seldom happens, most blue players wont risk that, because if I'm able to deal with the Titan they just lost two land. In a pure control deck that is hard to take.

[HazaredTheOmega]

How do you deal with Titan Then?

[Raditz6x3]

If I leave in the Stones instead of the Plows. Right now I also have a Virdian Shaman as my 61 card (I think I forgot to mention that, sorry). or with another Titan.

[HazaredTheOmega]

or block with ascetic forever and ever?

[HazaredTheOmega]

BTW Raditz what do you SB in for white weenie?

[Wild Card]

@ Raditz

O. k. ... I understand what you mean... But do you just use Boseiju for the T&N alone against Counter-Decks? Not for landsearching spells?

[lucky_god_draw]

The highest placed tooth deck (4th place) in the Paris regionals had some interesting cards MD:

First is Fabricate. He splashed blue for this artifact tutor so he can fetch answers in different scenarios. He can get O-stones in case he is overwhelmed by creatures or he can get S.Titan if he wants to control his opponents mana. It may seem to be an odd splash but it worked for him.

Second is Silent Arbiter. This guy can stop aggro decks like WW in its tracks unless they have an answer for him. He is also safe from some burn spells because of his toughness. However he will also hurt you if you run Rude Awakening.

His SB is also interesting.

He ran 4 copies each of Vine Trellis and Kodama's Reach. These two are both helpful for mana accel. Trellis serves 2 purposes: as an early blocker and for 4 mana by turn 3. Reach is also helpful in case you get hit by sowing salt. He also boarded out the A team in favor of 2 MD Plow unders

The top 2 decks were mono blue decks so I think that mono blue will be tooth's public enemy number 1. SB choices for the other decks will be for tooth and mono blue.

Would you think that the results of the regionals and these new techs will inspire new tooth builds for the upcoming standard metagame? I've been using tooth since mirrodin block and I would really like to place higher than top 2 in a tourney. Hope to get some feedback from you guys. Thanks.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Its really is pretty odd to splash blue for it. somewhat another T&N? YES Im not the only one crazy to run arbiters :D.

Thanks for the info god draw

[Galvatron]

hey Isalute you for running arbiters haz they stop ww beacon and rude too i want to find some more of those my frind wants them too

[HazaredTheOmega]

I was running them long ago, even when ravager was still alive. It is indeed a very underappreciated card. My friends laugh at me because i use them.

Though it is pretty funny though ebcause im the best Magic player amongst the group. Heck they dont even place close to 3rd place in FNMs.

This guy gave me lots of wins in arena and FNMs and any tourney for that matter.

Its going to be real hard to find arbiters now that wizards just shipped their last 5th dawn boxes. *_*

[Galvatron]

not only that with the last shipments of 5d witnesses value might skyrocket man i hope they reprint her

[HazaredTheOmega]

lol dude shes on the edge of getting banned. If ever she gets reprinted it would be rare. Maybe around 10th ed *_*

[Galvatron]

lol yeah i agree mabye 10th or 11th

[HazaredTheOmega]

thoguth what their cutting in 9th ed is pretty ugh... iritating.... WoG, Birds, I just invested some money on those to see it not getting reprinted...

though i like Shard Phoenix getting reprinted and llanowar elves but thats pretty much all ><.

Now if only they reprint counterspell...

[Galvatron]

i thoght wrath was geting reprinted the always repint it They reson they dropped bop was so they could pirn the elf besides they said they wer oning to repint bop in ravica Mmm black borded birds yum

[HazaredTheOmega]

ravica?

WoG wont be reprinted because we have the all new crappy Final Judgement! Yay!

[Galvatron]

what makes you think that every block has a wrath of god varient unles Wotc specifly stated that in a press release or put it ont ther web page it won't happen.

[Raditz6x3]

guys, back on topic.

Hazard: Yea or block forever with a troll. against WW I side

-3 Plow Under
-2 Titan
-1 Duplicant
+2 Naturalize
+4 Troll

I'm still testing WW to find the best strategy, so far this works the best.

Wild card: I'll use Boseiju for anything that I feel must resolve, if it's another land searcher, or Plow, Or Tooth. It is there to make Tooth uncounterable but it has fringe benifets of making other spells uncounterable as well.

[HazaredTheOmega]

Like scrying to find the last tron piece...

[HazaredTheOmega]

BTW raditz... Why not take Collossus out and keep duplicant inside? More or less youre not gonna tooth out Collossus. Kiki Duplicant is just another Trisk Vamp effect.

[Raditz6x3]

That is one of the things I haven't tested yet.

The reason I leave Colossus main is because I need to kill them ASAP while I still have A/A out. WW can remove them, either for the turn they need to kill me (Otherworldly journey) or permanently (WoG). Tooth number one gets the A-team and Tooth number two gets Kiki/Colossus to end the game in a hurry.

BTW Hazard: dont' ****ING double post.

[Galvatron]

yeah sryings prety goodim wondering how come nobody decided to run laughter fr those splashing black for extraction

[HazaredTheOmega]

We have different builds, I think u dont have Trisk Vamp in SB neh?

I tooth Trisk Vamp against white weenie game 2 and 3. they wrath, pretty much the same thing as Angel Abunas in play results. Trisk Vamp can kill in 3 turns. If I get to swing twice and they wrath, I shoot for 3, thats around 17 damage. I just drop a witness, pick up triskelion, play it and shoot for 3 again.

[Hajime Saito]

thoguth what their cutting in 9th ed is pretty ugh... iritating.... WoG, Birds, I just invested some money on those to see it not getting reprinted...

though i like Shard Phoenix getting reprinted and llanowar elves but thats pretty much all ><.

Now if only they reprint counterspell...

Counterpsell will not get reprinted remember MaRo is neutering Blue(Hence mono blue *might* be a tier 1 deck instead of it dominating unquestionably like the old days)

They Might stick with Hinder Mana Leak and some other very unplayable counter in 9th Im looking at Discombobulate and praying I never see it printed again.

WoG is leaving? Are you sure? I just got 7-8 ! That sucks Better trade those extra four like hot car parts.

[HazaredTheOmega]

thats what Ive heard. I heard it from lots of people but cant confirm ti yet. If WoG doesnt get reprinted... OMFG... I have 2 sets too...

[mad`arab]

i've seen one version that splashes black, not only for extraction in the board, but for diabolic tutor in the MD.

[HazaredTheOmega]

DIabolic tutor is Double black. That really hurts his green mana base *_*

[Avatar of Style]

Counterpsell will not get reprinted remember MaRo is neutering Blue(Hence mono blue *might* be a tier 1 deck instead of it dominating unquestionably like the old days)

They Might stick with Hinder Mana Leak and some other very unplayable counter in 9th Im looking at Discombobulate and praying I never see it printed again.

WoG is leaving? Are you sure? I just got 7-8 ! That sucks Better trade those extra four like hot car parts.That is pretty disturbing if it is true. This means that white will lose one of its most powerful cards still in print. This will mean the end of U/W control, and will signal the death of one of the most effective board sweepers. Do you think they will replace it with a 6cc sweeper like akroma's vengeance or final judgement?

[mad`arab]

DIabolic tutor is Double black. That really hurts his green mana base *_*

yeah i know it's double black, but his mana base seems to work well with it, cuz it never fails him

[Sirsoosage 234]

i would rather thin my deck out with the mana and just draw my threats instead of splashing black in the deck and messing up the lands. And to beat ww i put in 2 trikes, mephidross and o-stone munber 4.

[Falling-Star]

@HazaredTheOmega

No way is is kiki- duplicant even close to a trisk-vampire combo, the only thing going for the duplicant trick is that it removes them from the game and last time I checked bidding is no longer legal so its far worse. One trisk-vampire kills all targetable creatures in play leaving you with a very respectable 3/4 flyer and a 4/4 trisk, 7 damage a turn is pretty good with basicly no chance of being blocked unless theres a troll in play and than you'll just keep making the trisk bigger. The with duplicant-kiki it removes only 2 creatures max a turn and its size is very conditional based on what you remove. Duplicant should not be MB, it comes in when you expect them to be playing dragons on you, other than that its completely unneeded.

P.S I simply can't believe for a second WoG is not being reprinted its the corner stone of white and has been reprinted as far as I know in every core set. Its the only thing really going for white in the long run, kiss the colour white good bye in standard for the next two years, ww isn't going to support anything its the only reason U/W control is even a deck, and all other wrath effects cost to much to even try on there own.